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Theme Changer

 Topic: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism

 (Read 15635 times)
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  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #60 - November 23, 2010, 07:02 PM

    Hassan....I think a city like London might be able to handle it, but its in the northern milltowns, where segregation and insularity is already an issue, that I feel in the long term, faith schools could be catastrophic, by formalising ghettoisation even further, and then teaching separatism and insular ideas as a matter of course down the generations. That is really, really bleak.


    Oh I agree! I am obviously against faith schools now. (Did I not say that above?)
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #61 - November 23, 2010, 07:10 PM


    Sorry Hassan, of course you did and I wasn't taking issue with your post, I was thinking out loud without explaining fully.

    I feel that faith schools might be benign in certain contexts. London is big enough to absorb them and then make integrating demands because of the nature of the city and demographic, although in some parts it may change in the future. What I find truly frightening is how they will impact specifically in Lancashire and Yorkshire and maybe some towns in the midlands too. A combination of insularity, self-segregation, and then the nature of what they are being taught in there. Its really frightening to think of what places like Rochdale, Blackburn, Dewsbury, Bury, Bradford, Oldham, Keighley and so on will be like in the future if institutionalised Islamic stratification at school and educational level becomes the norm. Its going to be very unhealthy indeed.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #62 - November 23, 2010, 07:40 PM

    Maybe someone already posted these somewhere but:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2r3uUsdQeHQ&feature=related


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_ekXI-5zuo&feature=related
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #63 - November 23, 2010, 07:53 PM


    Cheers Zebedee.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #64 - November 23, 2010, 08:03 PM

    Peace Hassan,


    So what is your opinion on Faith Schools, TT? Should they be banned? Allowed to teach what they like? Restricted or monitored in some way?


    My mother worked for a number of years in a (full time) Islamic school in Australia. I actually showed her your blog on Islamia last time she came to visit, and a lot of it resonated with her -- the outer show, the inner conflicts and those pesky hardline parents, etc.  

    Her school was I think modelled on Islamia in part and lessons in hand chopping were never on the agenda and integrationist rhetoric was firmly in place. The main problem was serious behavioural problems on the part of students and a VERY unimaginative curriculum. (Also no music, for instance, which is a sort of blasphemy to me and my mum, given that we grew up in a musical household and my brother ended up training as a concert violinist). Quranic recitation was impeccable though.

    She did get some reward from it -- one of the ways was to bridge the gap between normal society and some lunatic parents. I think that was your argument, right? I believe it does hold, for schools like Islamia. Remember that there are people out there who have genuine mental problems dressed up as Islam and sometimes in order to heal that damage (or at least save their children), you have to dress up in Islamic garb. Think about what kind of a difference you made to the kids of those loony parents at Islamia -- just by being a little bit more groovy and still wearing the beard.

    In the end, my mum quit though: it was all pretty depressing for her, coming from a 70s style freeschool Ivan Illych/Idries Shah perspective, where she was used to educating little Tailors. Her objective in teaching us was to make us question authority at all levels: religious, governmental, economic and metaphysical. As a Sufi she was drawn to the Muslim environment because of the common vocabulary, but it was pretty crazy for her because it is, ultimately, worse than the state with respect to questioning.

    I think Islamia types do the "healing" job they are meant to do and are probably about as good as anything else on offer. The state system is pretty dire in this country in many areas (I send my kids to a posh Christian private which is breaking me financially -- BUY MY BOOK!).  

    But there are some other schools that seem absolutely nuts: in our area, for example, there is one Islamic school that boasts not only a music free zone but also art classes and picture books that involve no human faces. As a parent, knowing how much my kids love art and how vital it is for their creative development I actually feel physically ill contemplating such an environment for any child -- and can't believe the government permits it.

    Forget Saudi curricula and anti-semetism -- ban any school who sanctions that child abuse!

    You see, I'd argue the Panorama programme misses the point. ALL schools are teaching us to cut hands and feet -- in some form or another -- all are enforcing unquestioning obedience to some kind of law (governmental, religious, metaphysical).

    Muslim schools are often the worst examples of this.

    But all schools teach us to cut hands and feet and, even worse, make us consent to a world in which hands mean hands and feet mean feet -- a materialist world devoid of creativity and imagination -- what they ought to be listening to the children and learning from them.

    Cue hippie moment (my mum's anthem):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az9Az6S1nus

    I'd like Sufi madrases in which the teachers sing this song before assembly. In a Tailorite world, man ...

    L&L,

    TT


    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #65 - November 23, 2010, 09:05 PM

    Your mum sounds very much like certain of my colleagues at Islamia Smiley Yes the 'healing the crazies' is basically what I was saying. But there is a problem with this - and that is relies on special individuals - and that they 'know' what they are doing and how to do it sensitively. We were very lucky at Islamia - we (eventually) had a great headmaster - Abdulla Travathan - an old hippy from the 60s who was a Sufi (but kept it quiet Wink ) and we had a fantastic Sufi Sheikh - and an assortment of Asians from East Africa brought up in moderate/Sufi traditions a wonderfuly fiery Indian woman from Hyderabad and a few other 'characters'. We knew what our responsibility was and we shared the same goal - and we fought off the Salafis and assortment of crazies well. But that can all change quickly if individuals go and the balance of power shifts. (Abdullah's now gone and I've gone and few others too.)

    The forces in favour of the Salafis, Literalists and Mulana Angry-Faces, etc... is too much and even then at AMS (Association of Muslim Schools) meetings I was astonished at some of the crap they wanted to implement in Islamic Schools - and they were taking over the movement - which Yusuf had originally founded, (Islamia was the first regular Islamic School in the UK).

    For example now there is a head of the AMS who endorses the death sentence for apostates.

    Doesn't look good for the 'healing theory' my friend

    :(
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #66 - November 23, 2010, 09:10 PM

    Just wondering Hassan, did you have music lessons at Islamia or did you consider that haram?

    .
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #67 - November 23, 2010, 09:14 PM

    When it first started no - it was only Nasheed (voices only) - but eventually we had music lessons, starting with drums, then electronic organs (for some reason that was considered halal) then more and more until all instruments were seen as permissible (coinciding with Yusufs picking up the guitar again Wink )

    Not sure what the state of play is now tho.
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #68 - November 23, 2010, 09:17 PM

    Now that he is gigg'ing, he's probably got the niqabis as back up dancers

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #69 - November 23, 2010, 09:50 PM

    @ Hassan: Right, the "healing" is only a stop gap. Like Dhul-Qarnain's barrier, it will only keep out the Gog and Magog of Literalist/Fascist nutters for so long -- you left, for example, that's one less. And my mum left her place as well.

    But I wouldn't want to sell short what you describe: sounds like you guys at Islamia did quite a lot of good work and it might well still be going on in the same way? Good work is done on a one-by-one basis.

    I've got a feeling Islamia is still probably doing the right kind of thing if Cat Stevens is still wielding influence.

    But what you describe about the AMS is disturbing and coincides with the kind of place I am describing that runs in my local area.

    I found that local school's prospectus online. It looks all cheerful and bright. But check out the subtext:

    "As an Islamically faith-based school we carefully check all subjects by the guidelines of the Qur’an and Sunnah. It is for this reason that we do not promote learning through music. Do your children draw pictures of living animals? We endeavour to avoid this. Where it is unavoidable we try to use 'stick-images' or delete facial features on images."

    I honestly find that more disturbing than the literalist/fascist side of things. Someone can (potentially) grow out of fascism if they are exposed to enough of the real world. But if a school is effectively lobotomizing children's creativity: they will have zero chance of growing out of anything -- or growing into anything!

    Yep. I'm afraid I am with the hysterical Daily Mail types here -- but for completely different reasons: ban 'em! (Unless they can DEMONSTRATE to Oftsted the presence of hidden Sufi staff -- they will have to be able prove astral travel or conjure up a sentient cube by reciting Fatiha -- or are run by 70s singer-songwriters).

    TT

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #70 - November 24, 2010, 05:55 AM

    Quote from: Hassan
    In fact I used to argue that Islamia School played a positive role in integrating Muslim children into society as it was able to counteract the extreme versions of Islam from a position of authority within Islam and can influence the children towards moderate views....


    Where IN ENGLAND is this "Islamia School" you used to teach in Hassan?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #71 - November 24, 2010, 06:08 AM

    England. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #72 - November 24, 2010, 09:58 AM

    @ Hassan: Right, the "healing" is only a stop gap. Like Dhul-Qarnain's barrier, it will only keep out the Gog and Magog of Literalist/Fascist nutters for so long -- you left, for example, that's one less. And my mum left her place as well.

    But I wouldn't want to sell short what you describe: sounds like you guys at Islamia did quite a lot of good work and it might well still be going on in the same way? Good work is done on a one-by-one basis.

    I've got a feeling Islamia is still probably doing the right kind of thing if Cat Stevens is still wielding influence.

    But what you describe about the AMS is disturbing and coincides with the kind of place I am describing that runs in my local area.

    I found that local school's prospectus online. It looks all cheerful and bright. But check out the subtext:

    "As an Islamically faith-based school we carefully check all subjects by the guidelines of the Qur’an and Sunnah. It is for this reason that we do not promote learning through music. Do your children draw pictures of living animals? We endeavour to avoid this. Where it is unavoidable we try to use 'stick-images' or delete facial features on images."

    I honestly find that more disturbing than the literalist/fascist side of things. Someone can (potentially) grow out of fascism if they are exposed to enough of the real world. But if a school is effectively lobotomizing children's creativity: they will have zero chance of growing out of anything -- or growing into anything!

    Yep. I'm afraid I am with the hysterical Daily Mail types here -- but for completely different reasons: ban 'em! (Unless they can DEMONSTRATE to Oftsted the presence of hidden Sufi staff -- they will have to be able prove astral travel or conjure up a sentient cube by reciting Fatiha -- or are run by 70s singer-songwriters).

    TT


    Well good work or not - my view now, of course is that Faith Schools do far more damage - even if they are of the very moderate, liberal type.
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #73 - November 24, 2010, 12:35 PM

    I'd agree with that. But ditto for the current state of schooling overall, particularly in this country.

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #74 - November 24, 2010, 02:14 PM

    I'd agree with that. But ditto for the current state of schooling overall, particularly in this country.


    Yes the State School system is certainly a bloody mess - but I wouldn't advocate abolishing State Schools as I would faith schools - well at least not until there is a sound and practical alternative.
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #75 - January 05, 2011, 12:12 PM


    Quote
    'BIGOTED' BBC CANED BY MUSLIM TEACHERS

    MUSLIM teachers have blasted the BBC as “bigoted and Islamophobic” after a documentary about Muslim schools.



    The Panorama investigation by veteran journalist John Ware claimed children were exposed to extremist preachers and fundamentalist Islamic groups.



    He also revealed that a network of 40 part-time Saudi schools were offering to teach the Saudi national curriculum, and standard textbooks showed children the correct way to cut off thieves’ hands and feet.


    But tutors at the London School of Islamics (LSI) branded Ware an “Islam basher”.



    Spokesman Iftikhar Ahmad added: “The Panorama show was a confused and sensationalist bit of film-making.


    “Yet the Islamist schools in the documentary were all rated as good or excellent, and this was confirmed by their own presenter.”



    Last night the BBC said it “stood by the documentary 100%”.



    School watchdogs are now looking into why part-time schools can escape Ofsted inspections and will report to Education Secretary Michael Gove, 43.



    http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/170234/-Bigoted-BBC-caned-by-Muslim-teachers/

    Last night the BBC said it “stood by the documentary 100%”.

    Well, good on them.


    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #76 - January 05, 2011, 12:46 PM


    The Daily Star and Iftikhar Ahmed - truly a match made in heaven.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #77 - January 07, 2011, 12:48 AM

    Might as well go out with a bang.

    Nope. You get to go out with a whimper as the wimp you are. -admins
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