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Theme Changer

 Topic: The Price of Bread

 (Read 20088 times)
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  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #60 - November 29, 2010, 03:32 PM

    We can only be truly moral and make true progress if we ignore God or the concept of God, particularly since if God does exist then it appears that he has left us to it - we only have each other, nature, science and philosophical thought. It's up to us to better ourselves, to further knowledge and to figure out our universe - the universe around us and the universe out there beyond the stars. The question of whether God exists or not is irrelevant and philosophically speaking imo is a non-sensical question to ask.

     Afro
    Spoken like a true atheist.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #61 - November 29, 2010, 05:19 PM

    I don’t call myself an atheist because it represents my spiritual or moral outlook in a nutshell or handy label. Because it doesn’t, no more than theist represents a spiritual or moral outlook. There is a whole spectrum of different beliefs and moral alchemy under the umbrella terms of theism and atheism. It isn’t even necessarily a claim or statement of belief or faith for me. It doesn’t denote my personal spiritual path, political denomination, sexuality, likes or dislikes, hopes or dreams. The only thing you could possibly guess about me as a person if I say I’m an atheist is that I don’t believe in the existence of any of the current selection of deities and cartoon entities on offer. If that’s enough for you to sum me up, I don’t even wanna talk to you anyway. You’re boring. You’re not interested in me and I’m certainly not interested in you. Lets part ways and not waste each others time.

    The main reason I call myself an atheist is because, in 2010, its still a controversial affiliation with so much unnecessary stigma attached. I call myself an atheist as a measure of support and a show of solidarity with those worse off than me who are isolated in communities that would actively discriminate against them should they make themselves known, and who remain in the closet unable to express themselves freely for fear of upsetting or incurring the wrath of loved ones, persecution, social exclusion and alienation, harassment, bullying, or even death. I want to be counted amongst them, for what it is worth. And it is worth something. There are people out there who are drowning and suffocating, who need others to identify with, even complete strangers half a world away. Its understated how much just a nod, an acknowledgment, a bit of validation can mean to some people. This reason alone is enough for me to wear the atheist label with pride, wholeheartedly and unashamed.

    We feel so isolated sometimes, but humans are not meant to be alone. They'll take what they can get, be that a normal happy family, or a compromise in some form of social outlet, or hard brothers and sisters in blood who watch each others back living in dark streets. We all need to belong, need to be understood and appreciated. We move through life, trying to establish ourselves and make our mark, discover our sense of identity, trying to be unique, but all the time silently crying out for others just like us. There are no sign posts sometimes. You end up where you end up. It is understated how much simply hearing a few simple words from someone else can help you find your way. When you learn you are not alone, things can change in profound ways. It’s a spark that ignites you. When you find out others are going through what you are going through, you no longer need to feel guilty for it, because you know you are not flawed or wrong, just different. It isn't a bad thing to be different. This typically is what religious institutions have preyed upon, often having created this atmosphere or alienating individuals to this extent in the first place. Religion is a door that is always open - for the weak, the meek, the lost, for the predatory, for the manipulative, for the corrupt, for the abused and the abuser. They are, of a kind, reaping what they have sewn.

    For me, there is pride in separating myself from the religions of the world and calling myself an atheist. This is before we even get into armchair philosophical discussions, intellectual masturbation or anal-retentive definition arguments. I don’t relate to any of the religions currently preaching in this world, disagree wholeheartedly and often furiously with practically all their dogma and pseudo-philosophy. For me, the word atheism symbolises a disconnect from these religions, rejecting them, drawing a line and defending it. I think the fact that atheism isnt a religion or institution is what gives it its power, and more power to it if it ever becomes something bigger. There is a certain amount of dignity and a sense of individuality - freedom. Religion is for cattle and easy-mode living, for people who wish to buy their personality off of a mythology section bookshelf. I call myself an atheist because I identify with those lone voices of dissent in worse situations than me, where I was once upon a time, and I am an advocate of any form of solidarity against the institutions that go out of their way to alienate me and many others. I’ll stand and be counted amongst the minority who are in the closet and surrounded by religious deadheads and zealots, so that they might know they are not alone, and that they are one of many, and that it will get better. I’m quite happy to bear the stigma attached to atheism, and I’m quite willing to tear the face off anyone who has a problem with that, for myself and on behalf of anyone who stands with me. And I will continue to call myself an atheist until it is fully and unconditionally accepted and becomes a redundant term.

    GOD BLESS ATHEISM

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #62 - November 29, 2010, 05:33 PM

    God bless you Ishina! Seriously that was an amazing post  Afro

    You don't mind me copying it to my ongoing list of epic posts from 'ere do you?
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #63 - November 29, 2010, 05:55 PM

    You label me, I label you. So I dub thee unforgiven

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #64 - November 29, 2010, 06:45 PM

    You label me, I label you. So I dub thee unforgiven


    Haha! Class Afro (fuckin' awesome song, by the way)
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #65 - November 29, 2010, 07:07 PM

    @Ishina

    Quote
    Religion is a door that is always open - for the weak, the meek


    Yes. The 'meek shall inherit the earth.'

    Quote
    ...the word atheism symbolises a disconnect from these religions, rejecting them, drawing a line and defending it. I think the fact that atheism isnt a religion or institution is what gives it its power, and more power to it if it ever becomes something bigger.


    I think there's quite a problem in those facts. Atheism began as an attempt for people to distance themselves from the dogma and group-think of traditional religious institutions, but at the same time, it may become a product of its own success, and become just another such institution. I think this has already happened in a way, and it's kind of obvious by the way that people just throw around words like 'reason' and 'science' to the point that the words just seem to become meaningless. Every time I hear an atheist now bleat out these words my eyes just roll. That and, they have their 'religious' figures too, like Dawkins or Sagan. And they regurgitate the same old slogans over and over again, like the now imfamous 'who created God' platitude or they say that science can and will ultimately explain all things.

    If being an atheist means being part of such a group, then I renounce atheism.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #66 - November 29, 2010, 07:12 PM

    Yes, that's very true Zeb. One can find religious dogma in the strangest places; like in Stalinism or in the essence of Capitalism.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #67 - November 29, 2010, 07:28 PM

    I also don't like labels and groups and definitely am not saying we need to create some sort of alternative belief system.

    I'm saying we need to start providing RL amenities for those who leave religion. Many suffer isolation, loneliness, depression, fear, anxiety loss of friendship, family etc...

    Meeting on the internet is fine, but people need support in RL - in their community, places to meet-up (even if it's a local pub), people to talk to who understand and a way to come to terms with the meaning of their lives without religion.

    Leaving religion can be like coming off very hard drugs - arguably worse!

    At the moment there is very little RL help. We need to start thinking of ways to move beyond an internet forum and into the real world - as there are many out there who will need that if they are ever going to let go of their comfort blanket.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #68 - November 29, 2010, 08:20 PM


    I think there's quite a problem in those facts. Atheism began as an attempt for people to distance themselves from the dogma and group-think of traditional religious institutions, but at the same time, it may become a product of its own success, and become just another such institution. I think this has already happened in a way, and it's kind of obvious by the way that people just throw around words like 'reason' and 'science' to the point that the words just seem to become meaningless. Every time I hear an atheist now bleat out these words my eyes just roll. That and, they have their 'religious' figures too, like Dawkins or Sagan. And they regurgitate the same old slogans over and over again, like the now imfamous 'who created God' platitude or they say that science can and will ultimately explain all things.

    If being an atheist means being part of such a group, then I renounce atheism.


    You say this as though there is a comparable danger in bleating out the mantra of Sagan and Dawkins, to that of the mantra of evangelical theists or clerical elite. There is a whole world of difference that cant be stressed enough. Treat each proposition on its own merits and flaws, not on the track record of others. We shouldn't be afraid to wholeheartedly embrace good ideas just because it might make us look a bit conforming.

    I'm more than happy to be associated with such a group. I'm quite happy to respect respectable beliefs and give them my support.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #69 - November 29, 2010, 08:34 PM

    You don't mind me copying it to my ongoing list of epic posts from 'ere do you?


    Sure thing

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #70 - November 29, 2010, 08:55 PM

    You say this as though there is a comparable danger in bleating out the mantra of Sagan and Dawkins, to that of the mantra of evangelical theists or clerical elite. There is a whole world of difference that cant be stressed enough. Treat each proposition on its own merits and flaws, not on the track record of others. We shouldn't be afraid to wholeheartedly embrace good ideas just because it might make us look a bit conforming.

    I'm more than happy to be associated with such a group. I'm quite happy to respect respectable beliefs and give them my support.


    That's fine, and I didn't mean to imply that stupid atheists are quite as dangerous as religious zealots.

    I simply meant that I'm not sure it really would be such a good thing if atheism turned into a modern mass movement. You'd probably just wind up with the same old crap and dogma, and thus 'atheism' would cease to be a viable and promising alternative to religious and collectivistic thinking. It would, in essence, be the same thing, only sans the hand-cutting and gay-bashing.

    And even if atheists claim to value reason and logic, just because they fire these buzz-words around does not show that they have any grasp of the concepts they refer to. They could be the most irrational and thoughtless people, and yet just by using these words and slogans they could convince themselves that they are somehow great proponants of reason. If people thereby lure themselves into a false sense of security and yet retain their simplistic modes of thinking, I'd say that could very well be dangerous, particularly if it caught on.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #71 - November 29, 2010, 09:22 PM

    You say this as though there is a comparable danger in bleating out the mantra of Sagan and Dawkins, to that of the mantra of evangelical theists or clerical elite. There is a whole world of difference that cant be stressed enough. Treat each proposition on its own merits and flaws, not on the track record of others. We shouldn't be afraid to wholeheartedly embrace good ideas just because it might make us look a bit conforming.

    I'm more than happy to be associated with such a group. I'm quite happy to respect respectable beliefs and give them my support.


    I agree, there are good, respectable beliefs in religion but they are imo outweighed by the harmful and irrational dogma contained within those belief systems. Scepticism is a teaching I find lacking in religious texts - I wonder why?  Roll Eyes

    As you mentioned, atheism is not a statement of one's moral philosophy, political or economic views and I hate labels in general because individuals usually have their own unique combination and views on each area concerned but I think labels can also help people to feel part of group whom they can identify with a common objective.

    After reading your essay of a post, I find no disagreement between us but I have to post this now since I invested a reasonable amount of time in it lol.


    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #72 - November 29, 2010, 09:25 PM

    I also don't like labels and groups and definitely am not saying we need to create some sort of alternative belief system.

    I'm saying we need to start providing RL amenities for those who leave religion. Many suffer isolation, loneliness, depression, fear, anxiety loss of friendship, family etc...

    Meeting on the internet is fine, but people need support in RL - in their community, places to meet-up (even if it's a local pub), people to talk to who understand and a way to come to terms with the meaning of their lives without religion.

    Leaving religion can be like coming off very hard drugs - arguably worse!

    At the moment there is very little RL help. We need to start thinking of ways to move beyond an internet forum and into the real world - as there are many out there who will need that if they are ever going to let go of their comfort blanket.


    ya, i think this thread has gone off on a few different tangents. i think i've always been  a bit of a loner at heart so never felt the need for something like this (even when i was religous) but i agree it would be a usefulthing for a lot of people and might even help some people break free

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #73 - November 29, 2010, 09:32 PM

    ya, i think this thread has gone off on a few different tangents. i think i've always been  a bit of a loner at heart so never felt the need for something like this (even when i was religous) but i agree it would be a usefulthing for a lot of people and might even help some people break free


    A man of solitude, eh?

    Like Buddha?

    The word 'loner' to me implies unwanted loneliness, if religion is a big part of your life i.e. bigger than your social life then letting go can be a difficult process, psychologically.

    I guess making friends as Hassan suggested can help fill that 'emptiness' ex-muslims feel after leaving their religion.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #74 - November 29, 2010, 09:58 PM

    ya, i think this thread has gone off on a few different tangents. i think i've always been  a bit of a loner at heart so never felt the need for something like this (even when i was religous) but i agree it would be a usefulthing for a lot of people and might even help some people break free


    Like I say that's why most of us are here. Had we not already felt alienated in some way and/or not in need of the lure of organised religion we would not be here. But most people do need some of the comforts that religion offers them.

    Whatever one wants to say against organised religion - and rightly so - we must accept that it has evolved and endured for so long amongst humanity at all times and parts of the world - because it does also offer some positives amongst all the negatives.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #75 - November 29, 2010, 10:15 PM

    Quote
    because it does also offer some positives amongst all the negatives.

     


    true that *thinks Houris* .

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #76 - November 29, 2010, 10:16 PM

    And even if atheists claim to value reason and logic, just because they fire these buzz-words around does not show that they have any grasp of the concepts they refer to. They could be the most irrational and thoughtless people, and yet just by using these words and slogans they could convince themselves that they are somehow great proponants of reason. If people thereby lure themselves into a false sense of security and yet retain their simplistic modes of thinking, I'd say that could very well be dangerous, particularly if it caught on.


    http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/KimDonesia_(former_Muslim)

    After reading both yours and Ishina's posts, this is the first thing that came to mind.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #77 - November 30, 2010, 12:35 AM

    http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/KimDonesia_(former_Muslim)

    After reading both yours and Ishina's posts, this is the first thing that came to mind.


    Hm, and why was that?

    Quote
    However, I later realized that I was just following Pascal's Wager, meaning I was believing in God just in case there really was one and belief in God was the only thing that could get me a place in Heaven (if there was one). I realized that the existence of a God is illogical.


    Quote
    I have been reading The God Delusion and might I say, Richard Dawkins is a complete genius. With this book, any lingering desire in my mind to believe in a God has been completely pushed out. I now understand that belief in God is a delusion


     Roll Eyes
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #78 - November 30, 2010, 07:43 AM

    I wasn't impressed with the God Delusion but I loved the Greatest Show on Earth  001_wub

    But I wanna read a book on atheism that knocks my socks off, that has arguments so beautiful it would make a babe cry. Or a grown man-baby.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #79 - November 30, 2010, 05:18 PM

    Roll Eyes


    Indeed, it even seems that her new beliefs are almost as contrived and rehearsed as when she was down on all fours, arching her rotund white backside in the air, blood rushing to swollen pink genitalia, submitting herself to Mo's Izlamb like a baboon in heat.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #80 - November 30, 2010, 05:33 PM

    You've crossed a strange threshold in your manner to be so cynical about someone casually expressing a like for a book, and to go one further and liken it to ritualised submission.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #81 - November 30, 2010, 05:40 PM

    Indeed, it even seems that her new beliefs are almost as contrived and rehearsed as when she was down on all fours, arching her rotund white backside in the air, blood rushing to swollen pink genitalia, submitting herself to Mo's Izlamb like a baboon in heat.



    Wow! That was pretty nasty thing to say about Kim.

    Is it something personal or are you just a wanker to everyone?
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #82 - November 30, 2010, 05:41 PM

    Re-God Delusion - I personally loved it and it came at just the right time for me.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #83 - November 30, 2010, 05:59 PM

    Wow! That was pretty nasty thing to say about Kim.

    Is it something personal or are you just a wanker to everyone?


    I suppose you would rather I just patronize her. Like Her mother, or her new atheist friends.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RuSDQ8J6kw
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #84 - November 30, 2010, 06:36 PM

    Not being a total dick for no good reason = being patronizing?

    fuck you
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #85 - November 30, 2010, 07:04 PM

    Indeed, it even seems that her new beliefs are almost as contrived and rehearsed as when she was down on all fours, arching her rotund white backside in the air, blood rushing to swollen pink genitalia, submitting herself to Mo's Izlamb like a baboon in heat.


    You're on ignore for that, you ignorant MCP.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #86 - November 30, 2010, 07:05 PM

    You've crossed a strange threshold in your manner to be so cynical about someone casually expressing a like for a book, and to go one further and liken it to ritualised submission.

    He's just shown himself for the ignorant mutt he is.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #87 - November 30, 2010, 07:10 PM

    Indeed, it even seems that her new beliefs are almost as contrived and rehearsed as when she was down on all fours, arching her rotund white backside in the air, blood rushing to swollen pink genitalia, submitting herself to Mo's Izlamb like a baboon in heat.



    Mount-A-Pauk
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #88 - November 30, 2010, 07:52 PM

    Not being a total dick for no good reason = being patronizing?


    Pfft. Duh.

    Mount-A-Pauk


    What ever happened to MAB anyway?
  • Re: The Price of Bread
     Reply #89 - November 30, 2010, 07:58 PM

    He had a hissyfit over getting a 1 day restriction and left the forum.

    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

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