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Theme Changer

 Topic: Morals for Atheists

 (Read 15254 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Morals for Atheists
     OP - December 16, 2010, 02:02 PM

    Now that there is no one to judge whether what we do is right or wrong, would it be okay to steal, kill, lie and so on? Will there be no shame or sense of what is right? Will wrong be okay as long as it doesn't harm anyone? Will the law be our only limit? Will evil be okay as long as you don't get caught? Will we abuse our freedom (at least those who have it)?

    I don't think so.

    Do you?

    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #1 - December 16, 2010, 02:14 PM

    Quote from: luftazure
    Now that there is no one to judge whether what we do is right or wrong, would it be okay to steal, kill, lie and so on?


    The idea that such things are "wrong" is not the creation of religion. A great enforcer in the sky was invented to bring into line people who did not live by the dictum "do unto others as you would be done by" (or "don't treat others as you would not want to be treated") and were perhaps too strong for those they had wronged to punish them. Having said that, I don't regard stealing, killing and lying as wrong under all circumstances. For example, if an exploiter of child labor gets stinking rich from the brutal exploitation of kids they have no moral right to this wealth and no grounds to complain if someone steals their car to buy food - even though the law of their land may subscribe to an absolutist doctrine of property sanctity and punish the car thief.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #2 - December 16, 2010, 06:38 PM

    It worries me when a person needs a cleric or book to decide something for him or her that should be obvious as a matter of personal conscience.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #3 - December 16, 2010, 06:47 PM

    It worries me when a person needs a cleric or book to decide something for him or her that should be obvious as a matter of personal conscience.


    This.

    Morals come from the human being. Our morals have evolved from the time we were mere micro bacteria life, to the complex human we are now.

    The human brain knows what is wrong and what is right, through the human's environment and experience. That's why if you're born in a strict Muslim family, you will instantly fall into their morals. Vice Versa.

    Our ethics come from ourselves. Who needs a religion? You have evolved to form your own morals, and it is much more exciting to view your stance on morals in daily life.

  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #4 - December 16, 2010, 07:00 PM

    Now that there is no one to judge whether what we do is right or wrong, would it be okay to steal, kill, lie and so on? Will there be no shame or sense of what is right? Will wrong be okay as long as it doesn't harm anyone? Will the law be our only limit? Will evil be okay as long as you don't get caught? Will we abuse our freedom (at least those who have it)?

    I don't think so.

    Do you?


    Man will always tend to act in a moral/ethical way and religion makes no difference. In fact as Ishna implied it is not exactly moral to refrain from killing and raping just because of fear of Hell or desire for Paradise. If that was moral then a donkey is moral because he behaves because of fear of a stick and desire for a carrot.

    The most noble and worthy of mankind has always striven to act in a moral/ethical way whether as individuals or as societies. I suspect we have evolved this tendency as a means to survive and prosper. It is a basic lesson in life that if we want love, respect and security we must give it to others.
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #5 - December 16, 2010, 07:06 PM

    I still hold myself accountable for my actions, and try to live a morally good life.
    My burden and compassion for the sick, poor, especially orphans has not changed.
    Just that its from within ME, not because some outdated book says I have to be.

    I am no longer jaded in anything I say or do, the freedom of releasing the notion of
    a big sky daddy, but I am still ME, the same ME as I was as a xian and muslim.  
    Just set free of the REASONS I choose to do good, or remain law abiding.

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #6 - December 16, 2010, 07:29 PM

    Now that there is no one to judge whether what we do is right or wrong, would it be okay to steal, kill, lie and so on? Will there be no shame or sense of what is right? Will wrong be okay as long as it doesn't harm anyone? Will the law be our only limit? Will evil be okay as long as you don't get caught? Will we abuse our freedom (at least those who have it)?

    I don't think so.

    Do you?


    You asked me elsewhere to give you details about kantian philosophy. May I take this opportunity to give you an answer within the framework of Kant's philosophy.
    (note please that this is not everything in how Kant answers this and related problems, just a perspective)
    (I will also speak casually, not using Kant's concepts themselves, but a casual "translation" of them)

    If you act "morally" because a religion tells you to, you're basically doing it because you have some commandments and you go in Hell if you don't obey, or go in Heaven if you do, in other words, you don't choose being moral because it's right, you choose it because of fear of punishment or in the hope of a reward. That is not a moral act. It's a trade, a way to get a personal benefit, you name it, but not a moral action. (for you)
    Morality comes from doing the thing you know it's right, because it's right, not because somebody told you to, and definitely not because you expect a reward for it.

    But then, how do you know still, what is right and what is wrong?
    The "Golden Rule" applies, if I may name it as another member of this forum put it - I don't remember who he/she was, I read too much here the past few days here.
    That is, something along these lines: treat others such that the effect on them would be how you would want to be treated.
    That is, a principle which in fact is stated by quite a number of religions, in one form or another (even though they also contradict it other times).
    That is, what Kant names "categorical imperative". Act at all times, as much as humanly possible, such that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or another, never merely as a means to an end, but as an end in itself.

    Whether that's always possible or clear or how it truly applies to the specificities of a particular case, that's another story...

    The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #7 - December 16, 2010, 07:35 PM

    DH: Thank you. Perhaps my view isn't penetrating enough to realize that even the most drastic sins. Maybe sometimes extreme situations can justify stealing and lying. But what about murder?

    Ishina: Thank you for bringing the conscience into this. A VERY important factor indeed.

    abzm94: Interesting. So you propose that our morals are influenced by our upbringing?

    Mr. Hassan: you say:
    Quote
    Man will always tend to act in a moral/ethical way and religion makes no difference. In fact as Ishna implied it is not exactly moral to refrain from killing and raping just because of fear of Hell or desire for Paradise. If that was moral then a donkey is moral because he behaves because of fear of a stick and desire for a carrot.

    If refraining from sins doesn't come from morals, then what does?
    This donkey example is truly amazing. But let's suppose it's a dog coz donkeys are always objects of jokes and ridicule (no offense there Osmanthus) when you teach a dog what to do (right, by a treat) and what not to do (wrong, by a punishment as a yell or a slap on the paw (yes I punish my dog very gently and it works wonders)) and it starts to do these things by itself, doesn't that mean I have actually taught it some animal equivalent of morals?
    Quote
    The most noble and worthy of mankind has always striven to act in a moral/ethical way whether as individuals or as societies. I suspect we have evolved this tendency as a means to survive and prosper. It is a basic lesson in life that if we want love, respect and security we must give it to others

    I wish most people knew that. Thank you (as always).

    Jinn and Tonic: I wouldn't have said anything different if I were talking about myself. Wonder what your personality type is.
     thnkyu


    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #8 - December 16, 2010, 07:40 PM

    Winna... WOW... just WOW... thank you for sharing.

    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #9 - December 16, 2010, 07:43 PM

    I think I might be Kantian myself... wonder if other philosophers know this.
    While playing Civilization 4, I learned this remarkable quote:
    Quote
    I have gained this from philosophy; that I do without being commanded, what others do only from fear of the law.

     Socrates

    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #10 - December 16, 2010, 07:43 PM

    when you teach a dog what to do (right, by a treat) and what not to do (wrong, by a punishment as a yell or a slap on the paw (yes I punish my dog very gently and it works wonders)) and it starts to do these things by itself, doesn't that mean I have actually taught it some animal equivalent of morals?


    No, because if you stopped punishing and rewarding (and the dog was intelligent enough to realise it would no longer be punished or rewarded) - it would no longer comply.

    In other words, it did not do those things because it understood, believed or appreciated it was good or bad - but merely because it didn't want to feel pain or desired a reward.
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #11 - December 16, 2010, 07:47 PM

    Yes, and you could see that if you start doing the opposite - punish him for the "right thing", whatever that is, and/or reward it for the "wrong" thing.
    Or perhaps not even that extreme - but simply stop punishing and/or rewarding it for those things you used to, and instead punish/reward for others. After a long enough time, it might stop doing the "right" thing. (that's an hypothesis, surely it might depend how well you implanted those reflexes)

    The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #12 - December 16, 2010, 07:47 PM

    God (at least in Islam & Christianity) appears to have a very low aspiration for his creation - no more than dogs and donkeys.
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #13 - December 16, 2010, 07:55 PM

    Well. That might depend on how you read it. (obviously)

    If you consider: that the bible, kur'an, etc are written by humans, influenced by the social mentality of their time, language, political benefits from the masses, you name it, you will obviously have in these books some (most? all?) of their perspective/understanding.
    If I may play devil's advocate god's advocate for a minute: that doesn't say yet that if there is a God of sorts, those views are his as well.

    The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #14 - December 16, 2010, 07:57 PM

    If anyone is interested in taking a free online Harvard course on Justice by Michael Sandel you may be interested in this.  This is an excellent introduction to some of the moral philosophical foundations of Western society.  Discussions include major philosophers such as John Stuart Mill, Kant and John Rawls.

    Here's a quick course preview:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajlZMdPkKE

    All the lectures are available here:
    http://www.justiceharvard.org/

  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #15 - December 16, 2010, 07:58 PM

    Well. That might depend on how you read it. (obviously)

    If you consider: that the bible, kur'an, etc are written by humans, influenced by the social mentality of their time, language, political benefits from the masses, you name it, you will obviously have in these books some (most? all?) of their perspective/understanding.
    If I may play devil's advocate god's advocate for a minute: that doesn't say yet that if there is a God of sorts, those views are his as well.


    True - though you must assume that I am talking about the made-up God of these religions.

    I'm Agnostic about if there is a God.

    My criticisms of God are always directed at this false concept in Islam and Christianity.
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #16 - December 16, 2010, 08:03 PM

    No, because if you stopped punishing and rewarding (and the dog was intelligent enough to realise it would no longer be punished or rewarded) - it would no longer comply.

    In other words, it did not do those things because it understood, believed or appreciated it was good or bad - but merely because it didn't want to feel pain or desired a reward.

     Well my dog's favorite command is "Taa'ly" (Arabic for "come here" when addressing a female) and she comes to me ALWAYS expecting nothing more than a nice word of thanks and a stroke of the ears and head. And she's EXTREMELY intelligent since I lost her near the super market in our north coast village while she was chasing a cat, but found her waiting for me at the shalleh (a small house by the beach) although we've only been there for 3 days...

    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #17 - December 16, 2010, 08:05 PM

    Quote
    I'm Agnostic about if there is a God.

    I was sure you are Smiley
    What's the difference between an agnostic and a deist anyway?

    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #18 - December 16, 2010, 08:08 PM

    Well my dog's favorite command is "Taa'ly" (Arabic for "come here" when addressing a female) and she comes to me ALWAYS expecting nothing more than a nice word of thanks and a stroke of the ears and head. And she's EXTREMELY intelligent since I lost her near the super market in our north coast village while she was chasing a cat, but found her waiting for me at the shalleh (a small house by the beach) although we've only been there for 3 days...


    She cares for you, in my opinion, and afaik many animals have those orientation reflexes they use for getting to or getting back from long distances, even. Personally I know no proof that dogs intelligence goes much further than that, though.

    (nor many proofs that humans' does either Cheesy)

    The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #19 - December 16, 2010, 08:14 PM

    I was sure you are Smiley
    What's the difference between an agnostic and a deist anyway?


    Deist believes in some God/Supreme power - but rejects religions.

    Agnostic neither confirms nor denies the existence of some God/Supreme power - but rejects religions.
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #20 - December 16, 2010, 08:27 PM

    If anyone is interested in taking a free online Harvard course on Justice by Michael Sandel you may be interested in this. 



    This looks really good, thanks for posting.

    Christianity: One woman's lie about having an affair that got seriously out of hand.
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #21 - December 16, 2010, 10:41 PM

    abzm94: Interesting. So you propose that our morals are influenced by our upbringing


    Yes, they can to an extent imo.

    Interesting thread guys  Afro


  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #22 - December 16, 2010, 11:20 PM

    I guess I will have to define "spiritual bliss" as well.
    Seeing an unexpected rainbow, or when it rains while the sun is still shining.
    Watching a spectacular sunset, or the way a crane circled above soaring,
    and landed next to the pond.  Waking up to icicles in the window, and snow
    blanketed fir trees with the dark green peeking through the white snow.
    The content look of a sleeping kitten purring on your lap.  Waking up at 3am
    on a boat in Alaska, the sun already up, and such a spectacular display of
    woods and mountains, it made me gasp, cry, and burst into song all at the
    same time.  The tiny little bird that comes to visit me every morning on my
    front porch.  Jasmine and honeysuckle blooming on a warm summer night, as a
    breeze wafts the intoxicating fragrance across your cheek.

    These are my personal "miracles", the things that I have stored in the forefront
    of my memory, visualizing them and repeatedly experiencing the joy they bring.
    And so many more.  Spiritual bliss? I think so Smiley  Without a sky daddy? Absolutely!

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #23 - December 17, 2010, 01:38 AM

    It worries me when a person needs a cleric or book to decide something for him or her that should be obvious as a matter of personal conscience.

    Yes, because once that happens they'll start believing and justifying anything that the book or cleric says. Because of that, faith is no safeguard at all.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #24 - December 17, 2010, 02:38 AM

    I would also let people know about Itunes U.  Stanford, Harvard, MIT put a lot of courses up on there, and they are pretty good. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #25 - December 19, 2010, 01:06 PM

    Yes, because once that happens they'll start believing and justifying anything that the book or cleric says. Because of that, faith is no safeguard at all.

    True Osmanthus. They may teach some moral things, but carry out the most dangerous of orders within the scripture believing it is right and just.
    As a quotation which someone here had but can't remember (as much as I recall from it):
    There are many sorts of people, the good and the bad. But takes religion to make what could have been a good person a bad person.

    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #26 - December 19, 2010, 01:27 PM

    luftazure  while this is a fairly long read, this is an outstanding example
    of love, integrity, dedication, devotion, absolute selflessness  and all the GOOD
    in mankind rolled up into one young teenage boy and girl.

    http://www.charter.net/news/read.php?rip_id=%3CD9K6G08O2%40news.ap.org%3E&ps=1011

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #27 - December 19, 2010, 03:54 PM

    I would also let people know about Itunes U.  Stanford, Harvard, MIT put a lot of courses up on there, and they are pretty good.

    They're brill.  I'd also add the University of California, Berkley webcasts.  Helped me through my chemistry A-levels.

    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #28 - December 29, 2010, 11:15 PM

    Stumbled upon quite a convincing argument for secular objective morality:

    http://www.strongatheism.net/library/philosophy/case_for_objective_morality/

    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #29 - December 29, 2010, 11:45 PM

    Stumbled upon quite a convincing argument for secular objective morality:

    http://www.strongatheism.net/library/philosophy/case_for_objective_morality/


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aCRHjH6d4Q

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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