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Theme Changer

 Topic: The "true" Bible

 (Read 13066 times)
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  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #60 - December 22, 2010, 07:32 AM

    No a single concise sentence would not suffice. The word Christian means Christ like or some one who tries to follow the example of Jesus Christ.

    What is the single most important bit in the bible, the very essence of christianity? The single most important deed of JC?
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #61 - December 22, 2010, 07:33 AM

    I guess I'm being ignored. Oh well.

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    When I didn't ignore you, you just called me a witch.   mysmilie_977  So, what's the point? If all the fun people and parties are in hell and you want to go there and you think you really can get there, what need of futher conversation is there?

    What do you think I could say to you about those three scriptures that you don't already know?

    Why don't you tell me how something physical can burn forever? Do you have any examples of that happening? How long do you think a human body will burn before it is just ashes? Flaming mad

    Perhaps it is me that your spells will not work on. cool2

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #62 - December 22, 2010, 07:44 AM

    What is the single most important bit in the bible, the very essence of christianity? The single most important deed of JC?


    I almost dead laughing.

    Not only are there no good one liners in life, there are none in the Bible. If there was that is all God would of had written, actually the Bible is very concise as it is.

    The theme of the Bible is. Jehovah is the Creator and rightful Sovereign of everything.

    How is that?

    Those are my own words on the spir of the moment so I reserve the right to modify if need be.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #63 - December 22, 2010, 07:59 AM

    The theme of the Bible is. Jehovah is the Creator and rightful Sovereign of everything.

    How is that?

    Replace Jehovah with Thor/Zeus/FSM and you get the same thing - every single religion on this planet claims something along those lines. Nothing special about it.

    The single most striking and important bit in Christianity is the death of Jesus. Would you agree with that?
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #64 - December 22, 2010, 08:09 AM

    I thought about that one for "essence" of Christianity but that is still only part of it.

    It would have to include death as ransom and resurrection to Kingdom power.

    Then okay.

    Still also does not change theme of Bible regardless of what you say about other claims.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #65 - December 22, 2010, 08:30 AM

    It would have to include death as ransom and resurrection to Kingdom power.

    Then okay.

    The above is a matter of interpretation - the way you put it, well, it almost resembles a financial transaction. God pays ransom to himself or to devil or what?

    But these are unimportant details - what is important is the big picture.

    Death of Jesus.

    As a Christian you are probably familiar with the concept of Trinity.

    The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.

    When The Son dies on the cross what does that mean on the symbolic level?
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #66 - December 22, 2010, 08:41 AM

    As a Christian I absolutely find no Biblical proof to support a belief in the trinity.

    The Bible is very clear Jehovah is eternal as in not created.
    Jesus is the first born of all creation.
    The holy spirit is Jehovah active force or way of doing thing. Example what he used to make the earth.

    So what do you mean: When The Son dies on the cross what does that mean on the symbolic level?

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #67 - December 22, 2010, 08:50 AM

    The Bible is very clear Jehovah is eternal as in not created.
    Jesus is the first born of all creation.
    The holy spirit is Jehovah active force or way of doing thing. Example what he used to make the earth.

    That essentially is trinity - different facets of god.
    The aspect of god as such, the aspect of god in jesus and the aspect of god in the holy spirit.
    You can call it whatever you like.

    It's the essence that's important.

    Would you agree with that?
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #68 - December 22, 2010, 09:09 AM

    No.

    The trinity is a lie.

    Jehovah God is absolutely a different being from Jesus.

    They are not both part of the same god.

    Jehovah knows things that Jesus does not.
    Jehovah can give authority to Jesus or not.

    Jesus does or doesn't do things by the permission and/or direction of Jehovah.

    The holy spirit isn't every a person because it has no freewill or motivation of it's own. It's just Jehovah power to do things that he can let others have some of if he wants to.

    It is not like a person can choose to call it or not a trinity. Will a person could but the choice is choosing to be right or wrong not just okay for the sake of conversation I'll go with that wording even if it is a little different.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #69 - December 22, 2010, 09:24 AM

    I hope you are think of a really good reply. Some way around this trinity lie because I'm enjoying this conversation but it is after 0320 for me which is 20 minutes past when i should have been on my way home so I can take me meds on time. So got to go. I'll try to get on a computer some place tomorrow or my phone but that's hard. If not tomorrow as soon as I can.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #70 - December 22, 2010, 09:24 AM

    Okay, see you later.

    Jehovah God is absolutely a different being from Jesus.

    Yes, of course, maybe I wasn't being totally clear about it but that's what I was trying to say as well.

    They are not both part of the same god.

    But there is an aspect of god in Jesus, right? Or to put it differently there is a sort of a paternal relationship between god and Jesus. Or that god plays a paternal function in the relationship. I mean Jesus wasn't just some random guy who got crucified for no reason. He had a clear mission.

    The holy spirit isn't every a person because it has no freewill or motivation of it's own.

    Excellent. Some say that the holy spirit has no anchor in the Big Other; as opposed to god and Jesus.

    It is not like a person can choose to call it or not a trinity. Will a person could but the choice is choosing to be right or wrong not just okay for the sake of conversation I'll go with that wording even if it is a little different.

    Again, you can call it "penguin-on-a-stick" if you like. Or not call it anything at all. It's the essence that's important not the wording; and the essence is in the relationship between the three - just as you have described it above.

    Do you agree with my second point above though; that there is an aspect of god in Jesus but (like you said) they are separate entities nevertheless.
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #71 - December 22, 2010, 11:28 AM

    When I didn't ignore you, you just called me a witch.   mysmilie_977  So, what's the point?


    It was a joke. Do either of us even believe in witches, much less think its an insult to be called a witch, much less think its a reason to clam up and not answer a valid question?

    If all the fun people and parties are in hell and you want to go there and you think you really can get there, what need of futher conversation is there?


    Also a joke. I don’t actually believe hell exists in any form, nor do I think I‘ll ever go there. But I suspect you know that already.

    What do you think I could say to you about those three scriptures that you don't already know?


    Well, indulge me. You’re here as a True Christian™, white-washing the existence of an eternal hell as punishment in Christianity, saying its open for interpretation or something lost in translation.

    I guess you’re either trying to promote the Christian scriptural foundation as better or more pleasant than it actually is, or trying to square your own personal imagination and invented belief with what is actually written.

    You said yourself you need scriptural context. What better example than the actual words of Jesus the Christ? What is the impression you get from those verses? What is the meaning behind those parables and others like them?

    Why don't you tell me how something physical can burn forever? Do you have any examples of that happening? How long do you think a human body will burn before it is just ashes?

    Perhaps it is me that your spells will not work on.


    I’m not sure how these questions are relevant, since we are not even discussing anything based in reality, or fact, or physics, but transcendent knowledge not restricted by the rules and principles of the earthly realm. We’re discussing a book of oral traditions of an ancient culture neither of us knew, championed by people who thought the earth was flat, who thought snakes and bushes can talk, whose limited zoology meant they assumed all the (millions of) animal species in the world could fit on a home-made boat, who later thought the sun rotated around the earth… a book in which the central character was the son of a desert phantom, born of a teenage virgin, could walk on water, raise the dead, turn water into wine, exorcise demons, cure the blind with spit and mud, and even resurrect himself after his death - not only because he can, but also to fulfil previous prophecies and validate his divinity.

    Do we have any examples of these things happening? Ever? No, but they are still preached as science-fact by billions of people and still given some measure of the benefit of the doubt in order for the discussion to work. Only one of us could possibly believe these things actually happened, and it aint me.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #72 - December 22, 2010, 01:22 PM

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenical_council
    This is where the 'true' bible was written: at various Xian conclaves by the various political priests of the time to suit their own ends.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #73 - December 22, 2010, 02:29 PM

    John 5:25 “Most truly I say to YOU, The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is. 28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. 30 I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    Not one I thought you would pick, but okay.

    This is a very interesting situation. A resurrection of damnation or of judgment. What perhaps would be the better world here?

    Either way it is talking about a yet future time when everyone in the memorial tombs after having come out heard Jesus' voice and practiced either good or bad things and were then judged.

    Is that to you an ageeable brief statement about the verse?


    Yes i.e. hell. What constitutes bad/evil deeds?

    If we go according to the New Testament that could be a variety of things including lack of faith/rejecting Christ as your saviour, sexual immorality. etc.

    You didn't tackle the first example I gave you of Matthew 22:13 where there's an even more vivid and detailed description of the punishment in the hereafter.

    I am under the impression you think that you don't have to believe in the Christian doctrine to be saved - if that's the case you would have conflicts with all the other Christians who themselves have a well founded theologically belief that this isn't the case.


    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #74 - December 22, 2010, 05:19 PM

    Again, you can call it "penguin-on-a-stick" if you like. Or not call it anything at all. It's the essence that's important not the wording; and the essence is in the relationship between the three - just as you have described it above.

    But it does matter what you call it because same things, like calliing God a trinity, is very, very wrong.
    So, okay relationship.

    Do you agree with my second point above though; that there is an aspect of god in Jesus but (like you said) they are separate entities nevertheless.

    This second point:
    But there is an aspect of god in Jesus, right? Or to put it differently there is a sort of a paternal relationship between god and Jesus. Or that god plays a paternal function in the relationship. I mean Jesus wasn't just some random guy who got crucified for no reason. He had a clear mission.
    ?

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #75 - December 22, 2010, 05:42 PM

    This second point:
    But there is an aspect of god in Jesus, right? Or to put it differently there is a sort of a paternal relationship between god and Jesus. Or that god plays a paternal function in the relationship. I mean Jesus wasn't just some random guy who got crucified for no reason. He had a clear mission.
    ?

    Yes.
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #76 - December 22, 2010, 05:51 PM

    Here is the problem. You have pointed it out nicely:

    I’m not sure how these questions are relevant, since we are not even discussing anything based in reality, or fact, or physics, but transcendent knowledge not restricted by the rules and principles of the earthly realm. We’re discussing a book of oral traditions of an ancient culture neither of us knew, championed by people who thought the earth was flat, who thought snakes and bushes can talk, whose limited zoology meant they assumed all the (millions of) animal species in the world could fit on a home-made boat, who later thought the sun rotated around the earth… a book in which the central character was the son of a desert phantom, born of a teenage virgin, could walk on water, raise the dead, turn water into wine, exorcise demons, cure the blind with spit and mud, and even resurrect himself after his death - not only because he can, but also to fulfil previous prophecies and validate his divinity.

    I don't think we could even have the same conversation because there doesn't seem to be common ground on which to start that conversation.

    As regards a burnig hell you don't think there is one because... well. I guess because you think it is make believe. I don't believe there is a burning hell because I believe God is just and reasonable and would not punish the limited wrong doings of humans with unlimited torture (among other reasons like what the Bible says). So we would both be arguing the same point  (i.e. no hell) for different reasons on points that the other doesn't or might not reconize as relevant.

    So it is not really that I want to ignore you, it's just I haven't figured out how to have the conversation. Thinking hard

    Well, there might be... no, I don't think that would work (sigh)

    Could you just follow along one of the conversation?

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #77 - December 22, 2010, 05:56 PM

    Yes i.e. hell. What constitutes bad/evil deeds?

    If we go according to the New Testament that could be a variety of things including lack of faith/rejecting Christ as your saviour, sexual immorality. etc.

    You didn't tackle the first example I gave you of Matthew 22:13 where there's an even more vivid and detailed description of the punishment in the hereafter.

    I am under the impression you think that you don't have to believe in the Christian doctrine to be saved - if that's the case you would have conflicts with all the other Christians who themselves have a well founded theologically belief that this isn't the case.


    My time is up for today, but I'll get I'll get back to you as soon as I can.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #78 - December 23, 2010, 04:08 AM

    I don't think we could even have the same conversation because there doesn't seem to be common ground on which to start that conversation.

    Well, you could start by answering the questions I asked you, and we can work from there.

    As regards a burnig hell you don't think there is one because... well. I guess because you think it is make believe. I don't believe there is a burning hell because I believe God is just and reasonable and would not punish the limited wrong doings of humans with unlimited torture (among other reasons like what the Bible says). So we would both be arguing the same point  (i.e. no hell) for different reasons on points that the other doesn't or might not reconize as relevant.


    How do you square the belief that God is just and reasonable, with the god portrayed in the Bible who makes babies shit out their intestines? Do you believe the god in the Bible is fictional or different to your god? Or do you believe making babies shit out their intestines is reasonable?

    So it is not really that I want to ignore you, it's just I haven't figured out how to have the conversation. Thinking hard

    Well, there might be... no, I don't think that would work (sigh)

    Could you just follow along one of the conversation?


    Listen, I don't mind so much if you don't want to answer questions. You have no obligation to do so. But don't try and pretend the problem is on my part.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #79 - December 29, 2010, 07:08 AM


    Kenan, about this:
    This second point:
    But there is an aspect of god in Jesus, right? Or to put it differently there is a sort of a paternal relationship between god and Jesus. Or that god plays a paternal function in the relationship. I mean Jesus wasn't just some random guy who got crucified for no reason. He had a clear mission.

    Not sure what you are trying to get at with "an aspect of god in Jesus", however I don't think so.

    Okay with Paternal relationship and Jesus wasn't just some random guy who got put to death for no reason.

    So the point your point is...

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #80 - December 29, 2010, 07:52 AM

    Yes i.e. hell. What constitutes bad/evil deeds?

    If we go according to the New Testament that could be a variety of things including lack of faith/rejecting Christ as your saviour, sexual immorality. etc.

    You didn't tackle the first example I gave you of Matthew 22:13 where there's an even more vivid and detailed description of the punishment in the hereafter.

    I am under the impression you think that you don't have to believe in the Christian doctrine to be saved - if that's the case you would have conflicts with all the other Christians who themselves have a well founded theologically belief that this isn't the case.




    -So you actually see something in John 5:25-30 that discribes a place of burning fire? Amazing. Could you please point out the exact words that give you that idea.

    -You ask about Matthew 22:13. Okay let's look at it. Perhaps we will do better there. Let's look at it in context. Verse 1 of Matthew 22 tells us Jesus was speaking an illustration to the people. So this is a story that teaches a truth.

    Matthew 22:1 In further reply Jesus again spoke to them with illustrations, saying: 2 “The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man, a king, that made a marriage feast for his son. 3 And he sent forth his slaves to call those invited to the marriage feast, but they were unwilling to come. 4 Again he sent forth other slaves, saying, ‘Tell those invited: “Look! I have prepared my dinner, my bulls and fattened animals are slaughtered, and all things are ready. Come to the marriage feast.”’ 5 But unconcerned they went off, one to his own field, another to his commercial business; 6 but the rest, laying hold of his slaves, treated them insolently and killed them.

    7 “But the king grew wrathful, and sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his slaves, ‘The marriage feast indeed is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go to the roads leading out of the city, and anyone YOU find invite to the marriage feast.’ 10 Accordingly those slaves went out to the roads and gathered together all they found, both wicked and good; and the room for the wedding ceremonies was filled with those reclining at the table.

    11 “When the king came in to inspect the guests he caught sight there of a man not clothed with a marriage garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Fellow, how did you get in here not having on a marriage garment?’ He was rendered speechless. 13 Then the king said to his servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and throw him out into the darkness outside. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.’

    14 “For there are many invited, but few chosen.”

    Your claim is that this is even more vivid and detailed description of the punishment in the hereafter. What makes you think it is about the hereafter?

    I think it is about being ejected from the wedding feast of the Lamb and being thrown out into spiritual darkness.

    -Under the impression you think that you don't have to believe in the Christian doctrine to be saved.

    Say what?

    I suppose that all depends on what you think Christian doctrine is.


    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #81 - December 29, 2010, 08:18 AM

    Well, you could start by answering the questions I asked you, and we can work from there.

    How do you square the belief that God is just and reasonable, with the god portrayed in the Bible who makes babies shit out their intestines? Do you believe the god in the Bible is fictional or different to your god? Or do you believe making babies shit out their intestines is reasonable?

    Listen, I don't mind so much if you don't want to answer questions. You have no obligation to do so. But don't try and pretend the problem is on my part.


    Here is the problem Ishina:

    What kind of question is this:
    ...who makes babies shit out their intestines?

    What exactly does this mean?

    Are we talking about babies who past fecal matter through their intestines?
    Are we talking about babies who have an intestinal prolapse?
    Is "shit out their intestines" slang for some other problem?
    Are you referring to a certain event? 
    What evidence do you have that God had any part in what ever it is you are talking about?

    I'm not pretending the problem is with you I know that you are not really interested in having a conversation, there is no pretending about it.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #82 - December 29, 2010, 09:24 AM

    You're not pretty enough to be as dumb as you are.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #83 - August 31, 2011, 12:51 AM

    You're not pretty enough to be as dumb as you are.


    You are not as smart as you think are.
    To stoop attacking the person in an intelligent conversation shows a real lack of ablility. I did really hope you would rise to the occation.
    But you have never relied on facts. It shows even here. You have made a false move. There is no evidence that there is any relationship between physical appearence and intelligence.
    There is still not apossibility of conversation.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #84 - August 31, 2011, 03:01 AM

    hello lynna,

    i agree, Hell in the Bible can be metaphorical... however, i do remember certain NT verses that prove that there is levels of torment or punishment in the after life... i'll look for them and post them here to discuss.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #85 - August 31, 2011, 03:07 AM

    You are not as smart as you think are.
    To stoop attacking the person in an intelligent conversation shows a real lack of ablility. I did really hope you would rise to the occation.
    But you have never relied on facts. It shows even here. You have made a false move. There is no evidence that there is any relationship between physical appearence and intelligence.
    There is still not apossibility of conversation.


    Only half a year to respond back.

    07:54 <harakaat>: you must be jema
    07:54 <harakaat>: considering how annoying you are
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #86 - August 31, 2011, 03:13 AM

    found them!

    Matthew 11:20-25
    20Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths.[d] If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." 25At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

    Clearly, there is some sort of punishment in the after life, according to Jesus, with different levels of severity.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #87 - August 31, 2011, 04:48 AM

    Only half a year to respond back.

    Only half a year to respond back.

    Oh gosh!!! Half a year!?! I have been very sick but that is not worth taling abot. I'm here for now!

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #88 - August 31, 2011, 05:46 AM

    found them!

    Matthew 11:20-25
    20Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths.[d] If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." 25At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

    Clearly, there is some sort of punishment in the after life, according to Jesus, with different levels of severity.



    Lots of interesting ideas!!!

    We will first need to have an agreement of terms.
    Punishment in the after life?
    -Are you asking about llfe after the dead are raised tto life in paradise on earth?
    How will the Judgement Day be?
    -The 1000 year Kingdom of the Messiah Jesus?
    -Will attitude be important?
        I go with about yes right be side           acting on what you know and wanting      to live by God's standard.
    Hell of literal fire?
    -Is that what you are thinnkig of?

    I'll make all effort to be back tomorow

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: The "true" Bible
     Reply #89 - August 31, 2011, 08:14 AM

    hello Lynna,

    how about we keep it simple? Just give your own interpretations of these verses.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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