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Theme Changer

 Topic: How did stars get their Arabic names?

 (Read 3375 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • How did stars get their Arabic names?
     OP - December 21, 2010, 06:29 PM

    Neil deGrasse Tyson discusses the fertile period of Islamic history (video below).  This video would be worth watching just because it's deGrasse Tyson speaking, but he discusses the God of Gaps in such logical detail that it is worth its weight in gold.

     One of the most puzzling things about Islamic history for me has always been the period of the "Golden age" of Islam, more specifically, why this came to an end.  I've read that they lay the stagnation of Islam at the foot of the Mongols, but I never really bought that, though I'm sure it contributed (I have a great interest in the contributions/effects on Mongols on the societies they conquered, if anyone else shares the interest, holla at me).  IMO something had to have happened within, some poison had to have taken hold to bring down a society in such full bloom.  Tyson lays it at the foot Imam Ghazali, that out of his work you get the philosophy that 'mathematics is the work of the devil.'  

    I would appreciate anyone's insight on this claim, I would love the actual source for this.

    In my culture (let me know if it is in yours as well), there is an idea that there is such a thing as being too well read, that with great knowledge comes insanity.  As a child, I was highly discouraged from reading "too much" for fear that I would become insane.  I've since realized that they equate insanity to having radicals ideas, which is inevitable the more you expose yourself to different ideas.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vrpPPV_yPY



    Imam Ghazali's Biography (the gist of this is Ghazali goes on spirit quest because he has doubts and concludes that it is perfectly fine to doubt as long as you conclude in the end that Islam is the only true religion):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_bn9OY5E54
  • Re: How did stars get their Arabic names?
     Reply #1 - December 21, 2010, 07:24 PM

    Numerals are entirely Hindu in origin. Arabs did nothing fucking whatsoever. Or as some Muslims will dare claim it has to do with Islam. I can show you the Sanskrit script to prove that.

    Algebra also was largely INTRODUCED to Arabs by Brahmagupta a Hindu Indian.

    Wtf? Imam Ghazali?! Imam Ghazali is one of the best Muslims imo

    Quote
    However, Ghazali did express support for a scientific methodology based on demonstration and mathematics, while discussing astronomy. After describing the scientific facts of the Solar eclipse resulting from the Moon coming between the Sun and Earth and the Lunar eclipse from the Earth coming between the Sun and Moon, he writes:

    Whosoever thinks that to engage in a disputation for refuting such a theory is a religious duty harms religion and weakens it. For these matters rest on demonstrations, geometrical and arithmetical, that leave no room for doubt.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghazali
  • Re: How did stars get their Arabic names?
     Reply #2 - December 21, 2010, 08:46 PM

    In my culture (let me know if it is in yours as well), there is an idea that there is such a thing as being too well read, that with great knowledge comes insanity.  As a child, I was highly discouraged from reading "too much" for fear that I would become insane


    I think thats because insanity is defined as not believing in or questioning the faith and the recitation, and reading leads to that because it opens up the mind to other ideas, other cultures, other ways of seeing. Reading is dangerous indeed.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: How did stars get their Arabic names?
     Reply #3 - December 22, 2010, 04:43 AM

    I think thats because insanity is defined as not believing in or questioning the faith and the recitation, and reading leads to that because it opens up the mind to other ideas, other cultures, other ways of seeing. Reading is dangerous indeed.


    Yes. Is this something that is a blatant part of your culture as well? Just curious.



    Numerals are entirely Hindu in origin. Arabs did nothing fucking whatsoever. Or as some Muslims will dare claim it has to do with Islam. I can show you the Sanskrit script to prove that.

    Algebra also was largely INTRODUCED to Arabs by Brahmagupta a Hindu Indian.

    Wtf? Imam Ghazali?! Imam Ghazali is one of the best Muslims imo

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghazali


    Thank you for your input.
  • Re: How did stars get their Arabic names?
     Reply #4 - December 22, 2010, 06:58 AM

    When I was a kid, I used to read the translation of Quran, and my mom would always discourage me, saying that quran should only be read over the course of 3 days Tongue
  • Re: How did stars get their Arabic names?
     Reply #5 - December 22, 2010, 07:47 AM

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebra

    Quote
    While the word algebra comes from the Arabic language (al-jabr, الجبر literally, restoration) and much of its methods from Arabic/Islamic mathematics, its roots can be traced to earlier traditions, most notably ancient Indian mathematics, which had a direct influence on Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī (c. 780–850). He learned Indian mathematics and introduced it to the Muslim world through his famous arithmetic text, Book on Addition and Subtraction after the Method of the Indians.[3][4] He later wrote The Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion and Balancing, which established algebra as a mathematical discipline that is independent of geometry and arithmetic.




    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: How did stars get their Arabic names?
     Reply #6 - December 22, 2010, 09:39 AM



    Here's the thing about all the self-esteem raising propaganda about the great achievments of scientists and thinkers who happened to be Muslim in the past - those achievments themselves rest on the achievments of others, who are rarely acknowledged themselves by the 'Golden Agers'.

    So science in the realm of Islamic ruled societies was part of the weft and weave of knowledge as different achievements and civilisations drew on the work of others. In this instance, 'Islamic' mathematics is simply derived from ancient 'Hindu' Indian mathematics. So what? Thats how humans have always progressed.

    The issue comes when you elevate and propagandise this for the sake of saying there was an inherent exceptionalism in 'islamic' science and maths and philosophy, whislt simultaneously whitewashing the achievements and influence of 'Polytheist' 'Mushrikeen' 'Hindu' civilisation, the 'Golden Agers' are simply expressing a form of chauvinism themselves, under the veneer of fighting the 'chauvinism' of the evil perfidious West, who have deliberately erased and downplayed achievments by nominally Muslim scientists etc, or achievments made by non Muslims under Islamic dominion.

    Ancient Indian mathematics would mean that the lowest of the low, the mushrikeen polytheists, were not in fact jahiliya, but were a sophisticated civilisation that Muslims learnt from. That would skewer alot of foundational beliefs of Islam and central notions of the ummah.

    Best keep it quiet then, and keep playing the eternal victimhood card, so even the best of shared human endeavour, science, philosophy, mathematics, that is part of the common human good, the best of human achievments, as civilisations nurtured one another with learning through the osmosis of discovery and knowledge across cultures over time, just becomes another branch of the identity politics (in this case the Ummah Identity Politics) game.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: How did stars get their Arabic names?
     Reply #7 - December 22, 2010, 11:10 AM

    Neil deGrasse Tyson discusses the fertile period of Islamic history (video below).  

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vrpPPV_yPY

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_bn9OY5E54

    Well Neil   Tyson is trying to take a shot at  Richard Dawkins  all the time when he talks on Gods and Planets in public. The reason for that is this   Fuck..Off.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_2xGIwQfik

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6e08td_7W8

    So that is the problem  lol..

    But going back to  the contribution to science and scientific understanding natural process by various people form different religious backgrounds, could be Greeks, could be Christians or  Hindus or Arab Pagans  or Muslim intellectuals in medieval times .,  We have to realize their contribution is NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR RELIGIOUS BACKGROUNDS/religious education/religious teachings from their respective religious books.  

    But unlike other religions the case of Islam is different and unique.   When it comes to Islam, the contribution of educated  free thinking Muslim guys of past in fact is "In Spite of Islam not because of Islam".  We also have to realize here that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all may have this one God concept but Islam is different from he other two  in the sense Quran gives all the power to caliphs  and they are unquestionable all the time until they get killed and some other clan takes over the power structure and this is never ending process through out its history.. 

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: How did stars get their Arabic names?
     Reply #8 - December 22, 2010, 11:34 AM

    Quote
    Here's the thing about all the self-esteem raising propaganda about the great achievments of scientists and thinkers who happened to be Muslim in the past - those achievments themselves rest on the achievments of others, who are rarely acknowledged themselves by the 'Golden Agers'.

    So science in the realm of Islamic ruled societies was part of the weft and weave of knowledge as different achievements and civilisations drew on the work of others. In this instance, 'Islamic' mathematics is simply derived from ancient 'Hindu' Indian mathematics. So what? Thats how humans have always progressed.



    Bingo! Wonderful analysis. By deliberately disengaging from this network for an obscurantist religion their culture has been impoverished . The age of enlightenment saved the western culture from the clutches of Christianity whereas the Muslim world has bought a confirmed   one way ticket to Islam's man made hell by shutting out reasoning and dissent  completely.

    Quote
    But going back to  the contribution to science and scientific understanding natural process by various people form different religious backgrounds, could be Greeks, could be Christians or  Hindus or Arab Pagans  or Muslim intellectuals in medieval times .,  We have to realize their contribution is NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR RELIGIOUS BACKGROUNDS/religious education/religious teachings from their respective religious books.  But unlike other religions the case of Islam is different   when it comes to Islam, the contribution educated Muslim guys of past in fact is "In Spite of Islam not because of Islam".


    The truth, nothing but the truth! Yet these idiots are in denial and keep saying  Go Criss!

    Yeah! the lady is right , they have been pawned big time!



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: How did stars get their Arabic names?
     Reply #9 - December 22, 2010, 10:29 PM


    Here's the thing about all the self-esteem raising propaganda about the great achievments of scientists and thinkers who happened to be Muslim in the past - those achievments themselves rest on the achievments of others, who are rarely acknowledged themselves by the 'Golden Agers'.

    So science in the realm of Islamic ruled societies was part of the weft and weave of knowledge as different achievements and civilisations drew on the work of others. In this instance, 'Islamic' mathematics is simply derived from ancient 'Hindu' Indian mathematics. So what? Thats how humans have always progressed.

    The issue comes when you elevate and propagandise this for the sake of saying there was an inherent exceptionalism in 'islamic' science and maths and philosophy, whislt simultaneously whitewashing the achievements and influence of 'Polytheist' 'Mushrikeen' 'Hindu' civilisation, the 'Golden Agers' are simply expressing a form of chauvinism themselves, under the veneer of fighting the 'chauvinism' of the evil perfidious West, who have deliberately erased and downplayed achievments by nominally Muslim scientists etc, or achievments made by non Muslims under Islamic dominion.

    Ancient Indian mathematics would mean that the lowest of the low, the mushrikeen polytheists, were not in fact jahiliya, but were a sophisticated civilisation that Muslims learnt from. That would skewer alot of foundational beliefs of Islam and central notions of the ummah.

    Best keep it quiet then, and keep playing the eternal victimhood card, so even the best of shared human endeavour, science, philosophy, mathematics, that is part of the common human good, the best of human achievments, as civilisations nurtured one another with learning through the osmosis of discovery and knowledge across cultures over time, just becomes another branch of the identity politics (in this case the Ummah Identity Politics) game.


    What were the individuals attitude at the time towards knowledge gained from polytheists? Certainly the attitude towards polytheists you discuss above exists today, but I don't think in Islam's "Golden Age" that was the case?   These guys drew largely from Greek and Hindu sources, are credit with rediscovering/reintroducing material largely ignored by the rest of the world (if that is the minimum you will allow as their achievement).   From what I've read, academic pursuits were available to believing women as wells as non-believers as a whole.  My interest lies in that.  That society/culture of Islam at that time that was open to ideas from outside of itself (which makes any age "Golden" to me, regardless of actual achievement). What made them shut down?  My thought is that whatever happened, it was an internal idea introduced that poisoned the well, rather than some outside impetus.

    I do find it ironic that most Muslims look back to this time with envy, yet the inflexible ideas they currently support are the very ones that make regaining the ideas/culture that fueled that time period an impossibility.
  • Re: How did stars get their Arabic names?
     Reply #10 - December 22, 2010, 10:33 PM

    Well Neil   Tyson is trying to take a shot at  Richard Dawkins  all the time when he talks on Gods and Planets in public. The reason for that is this   Fuck..Off.


    I saw that video "Science is interesting, if you don't think so, fuck off."  I think Tyson respects Dawkins greatly, just disagrees with him when it comes to method, which is illustrated in their responses to the very last question in the following video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RExQFZzHXQ

     
  • Re: How did stars get their Arabic names?
     Reply #11 - December 22, 2010, 10:56 PM

    I do find it ironic that most Muslims look back to this time with envy, yet the inflexible ideas they currently support are the very ones that make regaining the ideas/culture that fueled that time period an impossibility.


    Thats the point I was making. They only look back at it with envy because it gives them notions of Islamic exceptionalism, and also a kind of identity-politics narrative of self-esteem boosting in the face of the injustice-victimhood of having been marginalised from history by others. It feeds into resentments about the lack of an Islamic ascendancy, a sense of low self-worth.

    A deeper understanding of the science itself, of the conditions of free thinking that brought discovery about, of how it happened in spite of Islam and religion and not because of it is absent, as is an understanding of how it fits into the wider story of human knowledge being like a neural network transmitting discovery and science and curiosity across cultures and time. This is against the concept of Islamic exceptionalism, which Ummah-Identity-ism demands examples of.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: How did stars get their Arabic names?
     Reply #12 - December 22, 2010, 11:43 PM

    On a separate note while I remember Billy, I was thinking that you would like this when I watched this video earlier. 

    Have you read Kenan Maliks book, From Fatwa to Jihad? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1lEnKOJsi0

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: How did stars get their Arabic names?
     Reply #13 - December 22, 2010, 11:49 PM


    I have indeed IsLame, Kenan Malik is a good guy, makes some very good points in his writings.

    Rumy Hasan wrote a book that Hassan reccomended a while back, its on my list of to-read books.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Multiculturalism-Inconvenient-Truths-Rumy-Hasan/dp/1842752375

    Rumy Hasan is a lecturer at Sussex Uni and an ex Muslim, I think.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: How did stars get their Arabic names?
     Reply #14 - December 22, 2010, 11:56 PM

    Thats the point I was making.



    I know. Smiley My question is what happens in a society to move them from its "Golden age" to one of stagnation?  Specifically, what happened here?  And is it an inevitable, possibly cyclical thing? I think I might have answered my own question.

    btw: I'm not familiar with the jargon you use, though its fairly intuitive.  Are they something you've come up with yourself or do they come from other sources?
  • Re: How did stars get their Arabic names?
     Reply #15 - December 23, 2010, 12:03 AM


    I kind of make it up as I go along Afro

    I was looking at it from a different angle. I'm more interested how 'Golden Ageism' plays itself out in the moden day. The reasons for the historic marginalisation of free thinking and enquiry under the dominion of Islamic territories is something I couldn't account for definitively, but you touch on some of the reasons why. I suspect that whatever space was open then for free enquiry and scientific progression to take place happened in spite, not because of Islam, and at some point for reasons tied up in historic and cultural and religious knots this cosmopolitan space was closed.





    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: How did stars get their Arabic names?
     Reply #16 - December 23, 2010, 12:16 AM

    I have indeed IsLame, Kenan Malik is a good guy, makes some very good points in his writings.

    Rumy Hasan wrote a book that Hassan reccomended a while back, its on my list of to-read books.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Multiculturalism-Inconvenient-Truths-Rumy-Hasan/dp/1842752375

    Rumy Hasan is a lecturer at Sussex Uni and an ex Muslim, I think.


    He was one of the speakers at the CEMB conference ; here he is at 4:30

    http://www.youtube.com/user/rezamoradi#p/u/8/-ZgpAh4CAug

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: How did stars get their Arabic names?
     Reply #17 - December 23, 2010, 12:21 AM


    Excellent stuff.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: How did stars get their Arabic names?
     Reply #18 - December 23, 2010, 09:29 PM

    I suspect that whatever space was open then for free enquiry and scientific progression to take place happened in spite, not because of Islam, and at some point for reasons tied up in historic and cultural and religious knots this cosmopolitan space was closed.


    The fact that this culture did exist (despite Islam) means that it could potentially happen again if the rationale that motivated it initially can be restored/rediscovered?  That this idea thrived, if not harmoniously, at all in the Ummah gives me hope that it can be used again to ward off/temper the current suffocating defacto ideology (the antithesis of that rationale).  Wishful thinking?
  • Re: How did stars get their Arabic names?
     Reply #19 - December 23, 2010, 09:39 PM

    Yes, numerals are Indian in origin. They were introtduced to the West through the Arabs but they are Indian in origin. I'll try to find the sources.

    "A good man is so hard to find but a hard man is so good to find"
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