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Theme Changer

 Topic: More Sana'a Script images online

 (Read 7266 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • More Sana'a Script images online
     OP - December 23, 2010, 01:03 PM

    It seems there are many more images available now than there were previously.  I thought maybe someone here who can read Arabic could do some kind of analysis.  Maybe identify the Sura + Verse numbers, indicate where verses have been reordered, etc.

    Is anyone feeling up to it?

    http://www.unesco-ci.org/photos/showphoto.php/photo/3451/title/all-qur-27anic-fragments/cat/837

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #1 - December 23, 2010, 03:53 PM

    I will give it a go as soon as I can find some spare time. Mind you it will be a difficult task as it is undotted obviously, and as you all know the modern Arabic writing depends on dots to identify a word alot, I guess in about 95% (may be more) of words.


    ...
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #2 - December 23, 2010, 03:55 PM

    OMG hahaha u actually want me to read this? Arabic is my first language and not a word I had the ability to read from these parchements. the problem is: the fonts r tottaly archaic and weird. there r no dots, although some of them have them but r too vague to be read.
     but I tried some and here r the results  Smiley :

    http://www.unesco-ci.org/photos/showphoto.php/photo/3451/title/all-qur-27anic-fragments/cat/837
    This one is from Surat Al-'A`rāf , verse 165 . so it is 7:165 i think.


    <AliIsAli>: in ur sharia law, am i to be killed???
    <ghutlu>: Yes sure sure u should 4 firstly Being Ex muslim
     <ghutlu>:  for leaving ISLAM
     <AliIsAli>: would u kill me if u saw me?
     <ghutlu>: yes surely
     <AliIsAli>: :(
     <ghutlu>: by the way gay is just a mental problem
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #3 - December 23, 2010, 04:01 PM

    Bah, I can read English just fine without dotting i's and crossing t's :-)

    http://www.unesco-ci.org/photos/showphoto.php/photo/3451/title/all-qur-27anic-fragments/cat/837
    This one is from Surat Al-'A`rāf , verse 165 . so it is 7:165 i think.


    Is there anything missing? E.g. does the sura end prematurely and the next one start too soon or anything?


    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #4 - December 23, 2010, 04:05 PM

    i didnt understand the question  Huh? do u mean is something suspicious about it?

    <AliIsAli>: in ur sharia law, am i to be killed???
    <ghutlu>: Yes sure sure u should 4 firstly Being Ex muslim
     <ghutlu>:  for leaving ISLAM
     <AliIsAli>: would u kill me if u saw me?
     <ghutlu>: yes surely
     <AliIsAli>: :(
     <ghutlu>: by the way gay is just a mental problem
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #5 - December 23, 2010, 04:06 PM

    http://www.unesco-ci.org/photos/showfull.php?photo=3354
    this one is surat Al-an'am (under the geometric ornament) , the beginning of it.

    <AliIsAli>: in ur sharia law, am i to be killed???
    <ghutlu>: Yes sure sure u should 4 firstly Being Ex muslim
     <ghutlu>:  for leaving ISLAM
     <AliIsAli>: would u kill me if u saw me?
     <ghutlu>: yes surely
     <AliIsAli>: :(
     <ghutlu>: by the way gay is just a mental problem
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #6 - December 23, 2010, 04:08 PM

    The question was....does the Sura end prematurely (missing verses) and then the next one start?  I vaguely remember one of the images was supposed to show something like that.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #7 - December 23, 2010, 04:21 PM

     Shocked ur right, most of them r without verses numbers. they r just written together as if in one sentence. And BTW That text from surat Al-a'araf is not verse 165. It is the beginning of the chapter. But I mistakingly said that cuz the script in the middle, the yellow sentence in the middle recites this : SURAT AL-A'ARAF 165 VERSES (that means there r 165 verses in the surrah).
     Well now this is the shocking part: I checked the surrah in the Today Qur'an and it turned out it has more verses thant that, to be more precisely, 206 verses Shocked
    Now I'm not an expert, but this is certainly weird

    <AliIsAli>: in ur sharia law, am i to be killed???
    <ghutlu>: Yes sure sure u should 4 firstly Being Ex muslim
     <ghutlu>:  for leaving ISLAM
     <AliIsAli>: would u kill me if u saw me?
     <ghutlu>: yes surely
     <AliIsAli>: :(
     <ghutlu>: by the way gay is just a mental problem
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #8 - December 23, 2010, 04:29 PM

    Oh, i just found out that i don't have to tell u about what chapter is this scripture or what verses in it (thank goodness, cuz that would be hell lots of work  Smiley )
    Notice the numbers written on each scripture in their margains. well guess what? that is the verses and chapters numbers

    <AliIsAli>: in ur sharia law, am i to be killed???
    <ghutlu>: Yes sure sure u should 4 firstly Being Ex muslim
     <ghutlu>:  for leaving ISLAM
     <AliIsAli>: would u kill me if u saw me?
     <ghutlu>: yes surely
     <AliIsAli>: :(
     <ghutlu>: by the way gay is just a mental problem
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #9 - December 23, 2010, 04:34 PM

    BTW why were u interrested in these pieces of parchement in the first place? what's special bout them  Huh?

    <AliIsAli>: in ur sharia law, am i to be killed???
    <ghutlu>: Yes sure sure u should 4 firstly Being Ex muslim
     <ghutlu>:  for leaving ISLAM
     <AliIsAli>: would u kill me if u saw me?
     <ghutlu>: yes surely
     <AliIsAli>: :(
     <ghutlu>: by the way gay is just a mental problem
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #10 - December 23, 2010, 04:38 PM

    LOL for the first time, I can feel the way Robert Landgons feels when he break down codes in The DA Vinci Code

    <AliIsAli>: in ur sharia law, am i to be killed???
    <ghutlu>: Yes sure sure u should 4 firstly Being Ex muslim
     <ghutlu>:  for leaving ISLAM
     <AliIsAli>: would u kill me if u saw me?
     <ghutlu>: yes surely
     <AliIsAli>: :(
     <ghutlu>: by the way gay is just a mental problem
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #11 - December 23, 2010, 05:04 PM

    These are the infamous Quranic scripts of Sana'a, have you not heard of them?  They were found in the roof of a Mosque in Sana'a during building work.  It is one of the oldest Quran's in the world, if not the oldest.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #12 - December 23, 2010, 05:13 PM

    Oh, i just found out that i don't have to tell u about what chapter is this scripture or what verses in it (thank goodness, cuz that would be hell lots of work  Smiley )
    Notice the numbers written on each scripture in their margains. well guess what? that is the verses and chapters numbers


    I can't make out the numbers on this laptop.  If it is not too much hard work would it be possible for you to colour code each different chunks (green, then orange, then green, then orange, etc) and upload the image somewhere, then post the info on here what those are?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #13 - December 23, 2010, 05:44 PM

    ahaaa. These are what that 15 minutes documentry posted in here is all about. One of the scriptures had some writing of the qur'an with different useage of words and arrangments of verses, which got erased and written upon them. right? Actually, I just saw the doc today and I was so damn amazed that I couldnt stop the hole in my face from widening  grin12 .
     Ok. so im gonna upload each picture and write the number of verses and chapters below them then.

    <AliIsAli>: in ur sharia law, am i to be killed???
    <ghutlu>: Yes sure sure u should 4 firstly Being Ex muslim
     <ghutlu>:  for leaving ISLAM
     <AliIsAli>: would u kill me if u saw me?
     <ghutlu>: yes surely
     <AliIsAli>: :(
     <ghutlu>: by the way gay is just a mental problem
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #14 - December 23, 2010, 05:56 PM

    Yes, that's the one.  I have been trying to get these images for years (on and off) but the people who run the website never respond to emails or answer the phone :-)

    It seems they have uploaded more images since I last checked though.

    I look forward to seeing your images, that's great!

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #15 - December 23, 2010, 06:57 PM

    ahaaa. These are what that 15 minutes documentry posted in here is all about.

    Rationalizer - I would recommend that you post a link to that documentary in the first post of this thread. That way anybody else who hasn't heard of these scripts can look them up easily. I really am surprised that it's taking so long to get the images of these scripts out there.
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #16 - December 23, 2010, 07:05 PM

    In summary, the Sana codex is not the same as the currant Quran we have. Meaning that there could not have been a "preserved" Quran in heaven created by Allah.
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #17 - December 23, 2010, 07:19 PM

    In summary, the Sana codex is not the same as the currant Quran we have. Meaning that there could not have been a "preserved" Quran in heaven created by Allah.


    There are even ahadith that talk about the seven 'Ahruf', or letters, of the Qur'an. I think it was said either by Muhammad or one of the Sahaba that as long as you don't confuse verses of admonition with verses of rewarding the believers then the meaning is preserved.
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #18 - December 23, 2010, 07:23 PM

    Shocked ur right, most of them r without verses numbers. they r just written together as if in one sentence. And BTW That text from surat Al-a'araf is not verse 165. It is the beginning of the chapter. But I mistakingly said that cuz the script in the middle, the yellow sentence in the middle recites this : SURAT AL-A'ARAF 165 VERSES (that means there r 165 verses in the surrah).
     Well now this is the shocking part: I checked the surrah in the Today Qur'an and it turned out it has more verses thant that, to be more precisely, 206 verses Shocked
    Now I'm not an expert, but this is certainly weird


    The fact that the verse numbering differs is only to be expected. Muslims have never had a definitive numbering system. See my post on this subject:

    Quote
    From Tafsir al-Jalalayn:

    Surah 8: It has 85, 86, or 87 ayat.
    Surah 7: It has 205 or 206 ayat.
    Surah 3: It has 199 or 200 ayat.
    Surah 13: It has 43, 45 or 46 ayat.
    Surah 14:  It has 52, 54 or 55 ayat.
    Surah 23: It has  118 or 119 ayat.
    Surah 24: It has 62 or 64 ayat.

    From Tafsir Qurtubi:

    As for the number of ayat in the first Madinan copy of the Qur'an, Muhammad Ibn 'Isa said, "The number of ayat of the Qur'an in the first Madinan copy was six thousand." Abu 'Amr said, "It is the number related by the people of Kufah from the people of Madina, and they did not name anyone specifically on whom they relied in that."
    As for the Madinan copy, according to Isma'il Ibn Ja'far, it has six thousand two hundred and fourteen (6214) ayat. Al-Fadl said, "The number of ayat in the Qur'an according to the Makkans was six thousand two hundred and nineteen (6219). That is the number related by Salim and al-Kasa'i from Hamza. Al-Kasa'i attributed it to 'Ali." Muhammad said, "The number of ayat in the Qur'an according to the Basrans was six thousand two hundred and four (6204), which is the number that their Salaf passed down. As for the number of the people of Syria, Yahya Ibn al-Harith al-Dhamari said that it was six thousand two hundred and twenty six (6226). One transmission has six thousand two hundred and twenty five (6225)." Ibn Dhakwan said, "I think that Yahya did not count the Basmala."


    Vol. 1 pp. 63-64

    And Tafsir Ibn Kathir:

    As for the number of Holy Verses in the Qur'an, they are over six thousand, but there is a difference among the people about the exact number. Some say that they are no more than this number, and others raise this number by two hundred or four hundred more. It is said that they are six thousand two hundred and fourteen, or nineteen, twenty five, twenty six or thirty six Verses, as shown by Abu 'Amr al-Dani in his book, Al-Bayan.

    Vol. 1 p. 17


    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10047.msg371671#msg371671

    The numbering may be different bit of course, it doesn't mean that the content, the text itself, is missing.

  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #19 - December 23, 2010, 07:27 PM

    Agree with Zabedee on the numbering issue, there are many issues with ages even in the hadith, I don't think the Arabs really cared much for numbers, as long as the meaning was there.
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #20 - December 23, 2010, 08:00 PM

    Ordering is VERY important.  Knowing that Y comes after X makes the message much easier to comprehend, especially when Y abrogates *cough*contradicts*cough* X.

    Having stuff in some random order is not conducive to "a message made clear."

    Are you guys familiar with this?
    http://www.answering-islam.org/Green/seven.htm#compare

    The 2nd example is good because it has an additional word "and" in it.  Hence the Quran is not preserved but altered by man.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #21 - December 23, 2010, 08:01 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJyeuXtZFuQ

    I think there's another similar thread with this link in though.  Maybe these should be merged?  Not sure myself, I haven't read the other thread.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #22 - December 23, 2010, 10:00 PM



    Interesting link, thanks.

    I actually have Qur'ans and exegeses that use these two different readings, but it's good to see something that shows the exact differences. Tafsir al-Jalalayn is really good for finding out the variant readings of the verses too.
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #23 - December 23, 2010, 10:25 PM

    I will give it a go as soon as I can find some spare time. Mind you it will be a difficult task as it is undotted obviously, and as you all know the modern Arabic writing depends on dots to identify a word alot, I guess in about 95% (may be more) of words.




    There is something interesting with that too....I wonder what kind of (interesting. weird, goofy, ect) new translations you could make then.
    This also poses an interesting question....If the Quran was revealed in the perfect language, why did it need to change (evolve)? Would it not have been better to say, provide a perfect writing system to go with it? Is the 'quran in heaven' also in archaic arabic?

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #24 - December 23, 2010, 11:08 PM

    Here's some variant readings that I noted from Tafsir al-Jalalayn:

    Passive/active voice

    On Q. 2:58:

    ...and We shall forgive (naghfir: a variant reading has one of the two passive forms yughfar or tughfar, ‘[they] will be forgiven’)

    Q. 9:66

    If We forgive (read passive yu‘fa, ‘it is forgiven’, or active [first person plural] na‘fu, ‘We forgive’) a party of you, because of its sincerity and its repentance, as in the case of Jahsh b. Humayyir, We will chastise (read either [passive] tu‘adhdhab, ‘[it] shall be chastised’, or nu‘adhdhib)

    Two Angels/Two Kings

    Q. 2:102

    (al-malakayn, ‘the two angels’: a variant reading has al-malikayn, ‘the two kings’)

    Q. 7:20

    ‘Your Lord prohibited you from this tree only, in aversion, lest you become angels (malakayn may also be read malikayn)

    You will not be asked/don't ask

    Q. 2:119

    You shall not be asked about the inhabitants of Hell-fire, that is, about why the disbelievers did not believe, for your responsibility is only to deliver the Message (a variant reading of lā tus’al is lā tas’al, ‘do not ask’, with the final apocopation of the vowel on account of it being an imperative)

    Kill/Fight

    Q. 2:191

    until they should fight you there; then if they fight you, there, slay them, there (a variant reading drops the alif in the three verbs [sc. wa-lā taqtilūhum, hattā yaqtulūkum, fa-in qatalūkum, so that the sense is ‘slaying’ in all three, and not just ‘fighting’])

    Q. 3:21

    Those who disbelieve in the signs of God and slay (yaqtulūna, is also read as yuqātilūna, ‘they fight against’)

    First person/third person

    Q. 3:36

    (a variant reading [for wada‘at, ‘she gave birth’, has wada‘tu, ‘I gave birth’...

    Q. 7:141

    And, remember, when We delivered you (anjaynākum: a variant reading has anjākum, ‘He delivered you’)

    Know/teach

    Q. 3:79

    ...by virtue of what you know (ta‘lamūn, also read as tu‘allimūn, ‘you teach’)

    Been killed/fought -- passive vs. active voice

    Q. 3:146

    How many a prophet has been killed (qutila, a variant reading has qātala, ‘has fought’, the subject of the verb being the person governing it)

    Singular/plural

    Q. 5:67

    you will not have conveyed His Message (risālatahu, or read plural, risālātihi, ‘His Messages’)

    Q. 13:42

    The disbeliever (the genus is meant here; a variant reading has kuffār [‘the disbelievers’])

    Q. 29:50

    (āyatun, ‘sign’: a variant reading has āyātun, ‘signs’)

    Sorcery/sorcerer

    Q. 5:110

    “This, what you have done, is nothing but manifest sorcery” (a variant reading [for sihrun, ‘sorcery’] has sāhirun, ‘sorcerer’, in other words, [he] Jesus [is nothing but a manifest sorcerer])

    Q. 11:7

    [this] that you are saying — is nothing but manifest, clear, sorcery’ (sihrun: a variant reading has sāhirun, ‘sorcerer’, in which case the reference is to the Prophet (s).

    Two sorceries/sorcerers

    Q. 28:48

    ‘Two sorcerers (sāhirān; a variant reading has sihrān, ‘two sorceries’, namely [what they said regarding] the Qur’ān and the Torah) abetting each other.’

    Preposition 'min' present/absent

    Q. 9:100

    and He has prepared for them Gardens — with rivers flowing beneath them (a variant reading adds min [min tahtihā, ‘beneath which’])

    Conveys/distributes

    Q. 10:22

    He it is Who conveys you (yusayyirukum: a variant reading has yanshurukum)

    Imperative/past tense

    Q. 17:101

    ...or [it means that] We said to him [Muhammad, s], ‘Ask’; a variant reading has the past tense [fa-sā’ala, ‘and he asked’])

    Second person/first person

    Q. 17:102

    (a variant reading [for ‘alimta, ‘you know’] has ‘alimtu [‘I know’])

    Inna/anna

    Q. 19:36

    (read [the introductory particle] as anna, with an implicit [preceding] udhkur, ‘mention’; or read [it] as inna, with an implicit [preceding] qul, ‘say’

    He will say/say (imperative)

    Q. 23:112

    He, exalted be He, will say, to them by the tongue of a Keeper [of Hell] (a variant reading [for qāla, ‘He will say’] has qul, ‘say’)

    Sun/stars

    Q. 25:61

    ...and has, also, placed in it a lamp, namely, the sun, and a shining moon (a variant reading [for sirājan, ‘sun’] has the plural surujan, which would mean ‘luminous stars’)

    Ready/alert

    Q. 26:56

    ...and indeed we are all on our guard’, ready (a variant reading [for hadhirūna] has hādhirūn, meaning ‘alert’).

    Without/without 'wa'

    Q. 28:37

    And Moses said, (wa-qāla, or qāla, without the ‘and’)
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #25 - December 24, 2010, 09:13 AM

    Here's some variant readings that I noted from Tafsir al-Jalalayn:


    Do you have a URL for that?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #26 - December 24, 2010, 09:15 AM



    Do you have a URL for that?


    http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=0&tSoraNo=1&tAyahNo=1&tDisplay=no&LanguageID=2
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #27 - December 24, 2010, 10:56 AM

    Do you have a URL for that?


    I didn't get them from a website. I own and have read Tafsir al-Jalalayn, and one of the things I made note of was the variant readings. But if you want to check them out, then just use the link that mighty_cats provided.

    And I must have been friggin' drunk when I wrote that list. I just corrected a couple of mistakes on it, 1 or two of the categories on it were incorrect. The references and readings are perfectly fine though.
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #28 - December 24, 2010, 10:58 AM

    I just sent someone a private message on IslamicBoard.com so I could send him links to these documents only to see the following warning "Admin note: PMs may be monitored."

    Thought crime :-)

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: More Sana'a Script images online
     Reply #29 - December 24, 2010, 12:46 PM

    The numbers on the margin are very clear and written in English. Someone must have wrote it before uploading it. This one is end of surah 5 and start of surah 6:
    http://www.unesco-ci.org/photos/showfull.php?photo=3354


    This one is much more clear. Looks like written by someone newer or someone whose writing style was accepted. Starts with 21:90:
    http://www.unesco-ci.org/photos/showfull.php?photo=3457

     


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