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Theme Changer

 Topic: Capacity for perception in humans

 (Read 3402 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Capacity for perception in humans
     OP - December 25, 2010, 05:52 PM

    Open question. What are your thoughts on the capacity of humans to perceive things in life: this can be pragmatic, logical, emotional, political or even spiritual.
  • Re: Capacity for perception in humans
     Reply #1 - December 25, 2010, 06:51 PM

    Human brains' have endless capacity. As long as that brain doesn't get all the negative items that stop it from exploring things.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Capacity for perception in humans
     Reply #2 - December 25, 2010, 07:34 PM

    Science is now beginning to discover dimensions outside of our perception, and this has been known in shamanistic cultures for a long time, though not necessarily in the same way. I disagree that our brains have the capacity to understand everything. They can't even understand all of the things that we can even conceive of enough to question, much less those things we are unable to conceive of at all! For example, we can conceive of a Creator, but can't conceive of an uncreated Creator. Some of us just ignore the question! We also can't conceive of an end to time and space, though we can question them.

    Those who have ESP abilities evidence that there is more capacity there than most of us are aware of, but I still question whether or not within the context of pure brain functioning that it is limitless. However, there are those who practice deep states of meditation that do experience expanded consciousness and increased capabilities in that regard. One wonders if this is the result of the activation of normally unused parts of the brain, or is something else at work.

    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."~Steven Weinberg
  • Re: Capacity for perception in humans
     Reply #3 - December 25, 2010, 07:53 PM

    Quote
    Those who have ESP abilities evidence that there is more capacity there than most of us are aware of, but I still question whether or not within the context of pure brain functioning that it is limitless.


    Sam Harris, in The End of Faith, talked briefly on the "body of data attesting to the reality of psychic phenomena".  I remember being surprised at the claim that there is scientific evidence for it at all.  I've yet to read any of his references on the matter:

    D. Radin, The Conscious Universe: The Scientific Truth of Psychic Phenomena (New York: HarperCollins, 1997),
    R. Sheldrake, The Sense of Being Stared At: And Other Aspects of the Extended Mind (New York: Crown, 2003)
    R. S. Bobrow, "Paranormal Phenomena in the Medical Literature Sufficient Smoke to Warrant a Search for Fire," Medical Hypotheses 60 (2003): 864-68.

    Though I'd be interested in a brief summary of such evidence, if anyone is familiar with it.

    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: Capacity for perception in humans
     Reply #4 - December 25, 2010, 08:19 PM

    Open question. What are your thoughts on the capacity of humans to perceive things in life: this can be pragmatic, logical, emotional, political or even spiritual.


    Our perception is limited and based on what we have experienced or desire. Since our experience is limited and we desire what we see - what we perceive is confined to that.

    Everything we do and say is really about ourselves and the little, selective world we inhabit.

    Though we think it applies to the universe and beyond.
  • Re: Capacity for perception in humans
     Reply #5 - December 25, 2010, 10:09 PM

    Human brains' have endless capacity.

    Prove it. Smiley

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Capacity for perception in humans
     Reply #6 - December 25, 2010, 10:51 PM

    Sam Harris, in The End of Faith, talked briefly on the "body of data attesting to the reality of psychic phenomena".  I remember being surprised at the claim that there is scientific evidence for it at all.  I've yet to read any of his references on the matter:

    D. Radin, The Conscious Universe: The Scientific Truth of Psychic Phenomena (New York: HarperCollins, 1997),
    R. Sheldrake, The Sense of Being Stared At: And Other Aspects of the Extended Mind (New York: Crown, 2003)
    R. S. Bobrow, "Paranormal Phenomena in the Medical Literature Sufficient Smoke to Warrant a Search for Fire," Medical Hypotheses 60 (2003): 864-68.

    Though I'd be interested in a brief summary of such evidence, if anyone is familiar with it.


    The thing is, these phenomena often exhibit spontaneously and are not generally able to be studied subject to the scientific method. I've heard enough anecdotal stories, however, to come to the conclusion that various psychic phenomena do exist. I have personal experience with it as well in the form of intuitive knowledge.  For example, once I had a very strong dream about a person I hadn't seen or talked to or much thought about in several years. The dream was so strong that I continued to remember it throughout the next day, which is quite unusual for me. That afternoon the person called me. After having many such experiences, I have come to understand that there is some kind of connection that we have to people beyond the physical that we don't understand.

    I'd be interested in that summary too, and if you're interested in such things, I'd encourage you to listen to this program online or on local AM radio in the US: www.coasttocoastam.com

    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."~Steven Weinberg
  • Re: Capacity for perception in humans
     Reply #7 - December 25, 2010, 10:56 PM

    I don't understand why it is necessary for "psychic phenomena" to be proven scientifically (whatever that means) for it to be accepted as the truth. The truth is whatever you experience for yourself, as it is, with or without official recognition.
    Besides which, one cannot scientifically prove anything about perception because one can only perceive from within, it is impossible to be completely objective about that which is completely subjective.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Capacity for perception in humans
     Reply #8 - December 25, 2010, 11:48 PM

    Prove it. Smiley

    It was a philosophical point, not a literal one.. Smiley

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Capacity for perception in humans
     Reply #9 - December 26, 2010, 08:06 AM

    I don't understand why it is necessary for "psychic phenomena" to be proven scientifically (whatever that means) for it to be accepted as the truth. The truth is whatever you experience for yourself, as it is, with or without official recognition.
    Besides which, one cannot scientifically prove anything about perception because one can only perceive from within, it is impossible to be completely objective about that which is completely subjective.

    There doesn't have to be unequivocal "proof" or "complete objectivity" in order to gain scientific insight into a phenomena - I merely asked for evidence (of which subjective anecdotes, as newsoul has pointed out, can be considered as such).

    Quote
    one cannot scientifically prove anything about perception

    Anything?  This is a very bold claim and I'd be interested in how you back it up.

    We might not presently be able to prove certain aspects regarding perception e.g. as in the classic philosophical argument for our individual sensation of colour.  However, we know that objects are "coloured" (reflecting certain wavelengths of light) and we also know how the eye transmits these wavelengths to the brain i.e. how our mind perceives colour.  The fact that we are currently not able to prove if my sensation of redness matches yours doesn't take away from the scientific fact that the light that I call red is the same as the light that you call red.  This has a lot to do with perception.


    The thing is, these phenomena often exhibit spontaneously and are not generally able to be studied subject to the scientific method.

    I don't quite understand this. Could you clarify?

    Quote
    I've heard enough anecdotal stories, however, to come to the conclusion that various psychic phenomena do exist. I have personal experience with it as well in the form of intuitive knowledge.  For example, once I had a very strong dream about a person I hadn't seen or talked to or much thought about in several years. The dream was so strong that I continued to remember it throughout the next day, which is quite unusual for me. That afternoon the person called me. After having many such experiences, I have come to understand that there is some kind of connection that we have to people beyond the physical that we don't understand.

    I've had such an experience myself, as well as many others I know.  However, I can't come to a conclusion on a connection "beyond the physical" based on this or of anecdotes alone because I can't rule out the very real possibility of coincidence.

    If we were to study such experiences statistically, I'd imagine we'd find that the odds are not as far-fetched as we might 'intuitively' imagine (see the birthday paradox).  However, I'm not a statistician and I wouldn't know where to begin to calculate the odds in dreaming about someone preceding an impressive incident about them.  The problem, however, is that at each given moment in our lives, we are prone to experience an eerie coincidence.  We never consciously think about all the times that we miss these opportunities, yet when it does happen on the rare occasion we tend to see some significance in it.

    So I'm sceptical on basing my conclusions on personal experience alone.  I also think that science may have a lot to say on the matter, especially if we are to ever come to a conclusion or fact or "truth".

    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: Capacity for perception in humans
     Reply #10 - December 26, 2010, 01:34 PM

    Interesting views all, especially on the birthday paradox - not seen that before, thanks.

    Come on all, what else? billy? IraqiAtheist? stardust? Pariah/Thinky? Q-Man? Cheetah? What is the limit of humans perceiving themselves from seeing themselves in a mirror to their perception of morals to the spiritual realms (or feelings of spiritualism)?

    Having an opinion in the perception capacity in humans is itself a perception by a human doing the perceiving.  grin12
  • Re: Capacity for perception in humans
     Reply #11 - December 26, 2010, 04:41 PM

    It was a philosophical point, not a literal one.. Smiley


    lol

    "If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
  • Re: Capacity for perception in humans
     Reply #12 - December 28, 2010, 05:27 AM

    There doesn't have to be unequivocal "proof" or "complete objectivity" in order to gain scientific insight into a phenomena - I merely asked for evidence (of which subjective anecdotes, as newsoul has pointed out, can be considered as such).
    Anything?  This is a very bold claim and I'd be interested in how you back it up.

    We might not presently be able to prove certain aspects regarding perception e.g. as in the classic philosophical argument for our individual sensation of colour.  However, we know that objects are "coloured" (reflecting certain wavelengths of light) and we also know how the eye transmits these wavelengths to the brain i.e. how our mind perceives colour.  The fact that we are currently not able to prove if my sensation of redness matches yours doesn't take away from the scientific fact that the light that I call red is the same as the light that you call red.  This has a lot to do with perception.

    I don't quite understand this. Could you clarify?
    I've had such an experience myself, as well as many others I know.  However, I can't come to a conclusion on a connection "beyond the physical" based on this or of anecdotes alone because I can't rule out the very real possibility of coincidence.

    If we were to study such experiences statistically, I'd imagine we'd find that the odds are not as far-fetched as we might 'intuitively' imagine (see the birthday paradox).  However, I'm not a statistician and I wouldn't know where to begin to calculate the odds in dreaming about someone preceding an impressive incident about them.  The problem, however, is that at each given moment in our lives, we are prone to experience an eerie coincidence.  We never consciously think about all the times that we miss these opportunities, yet when it does happen on the rare occasion we tend to see some significance in it.

    So I'm sceptical on basing my conclusions on personal experience alone.  I also think that science may have a lot to say on the matter, especially if we are to ever come to a conclusion or fact or "truth".



    Excellent point, sure! That's just my personal experience, but what of those who have other, more definitive psychic experiences wherein they learn information that they couldn't possibly know, like where a body is buried or that a person died last night of a heart attack?

    What I meant about the scientific method being difficult to apply in these situations is that they aren't able to be repeated over and over like the affect of a chemical on tissue is with controls in place. When a piece of psychically-gleaned information comes to you, you can't repeat that same information session again and again. There have been some attempts, however, I believe at the University of New Mexico that I have read about using some of the world's most noted psychics as test subjects. I'll see if I can find something to post about their work.

    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."~Steven Weinberg
  • Re: Capacity for perception in humans
     Reply #13 - December 28, 2010, 05:42 AM

    arX- check this out:  http://veritas.arizona.edu/

    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."~Steven Weinberg
  • Re: Capacity for perception in humans
     Reply #14 - December 28, 2010, 06:58 AM


    Anything?  This is a very bold claim and I'd be interested in how you back it up.

    We might not presently be able to prove certain aspects regarding perception e.g. as in the classic philosophical argument for our individual sensation of colour.  However, we know that objects are "coloured" (reflecting certain wavelengths of light) and we also know how the eye transmits these wavelengths to the brain i.e. how our mind perceives colour.  The fact that we are currently not able to prove if my sensation of redness matches yours doesn't take away from the scientific fact that the light that I call red is the same as the light that you call red.  This has a lot to do with perception.




    Sure, all of this is correct. However, what is not explained and what cannot be explained in terms that only allow for objective, quantifiable parameters is the sensation of the perception. It is correct that we can take the colour red and we can build an elaborate theory about electromagnetic wavelengths that correlates with our sensation of that colour but correlation is not the same thing as explanation.
    What it means for me to experience red, the actual felt sensation of that colour is not explained in terms of the wavelength of an em wave. All we know is that such and such a wavelength correlates (in "normal" conditions) with such and such a colour but there is nothing within the definition of that wavelength that tells us what the colour will feel like to look at. For another example, one cannot look at a sheet of music and know what the notes will sound like - for that one needs to actually hear the music, not just the conceptualisation of it.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
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