UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan

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UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
OP - December 31, 2010, 02:27 PM

Within three weeks of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan the cabinet secretary, Sir Robert Armstrong, was negotiating how to channel covert military aid towards the "Islamic resistance" that was fighting the Russians.

Details of how swiftly clandestine weapons routes were opened up to aid the mujahideen emerge from secret cabinet documents released to the National Archives today under the 30-year rule.

The French proposed channelling military aid via the Iraqis. The aim of the west, they said, should be to keep the Islamic world "aroused about the Soviet invasion that would be served by encouraging a continuing guerrilla resistance".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/dec/30/uk-mujahideen-afghanistan-soviet-invasion

The very ones who were "aroused" by the soviet occupation are now aroused by the american occupation........they do say you reap what you sow
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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #1 - December 31, 2010, 02:47 PM

This is news?

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #2 - December 31, 2010, 04:01 PM

@Aphrodite

You seriously didn't know that Americans, Brits & others were helping the Mujahideen in Afghanistan? They even provided state-of-the-art anti-aircraft missiles called Stingers so that Mujahideen could take down Soviet helicopters: "The Central Intelligence Agency supplied nearly 500 Stingers (some sources claim 1,500–2,000) to the Mujahideen in Afghanistan during Operation Cyclone, the Soviet war in Afghanistan, in the 1980s. These are thought to have had a decisive impact on the war."

Btw have you seen Rambo III?

United States, UK, France, Germany & others also supplied Saddam with weapons and know-how in the '80.

Recognize the guy on the right?

saddam_Rumsfeld.jpg (13.47 KB, 347x287 - viewed 507 times.)
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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #3 - December 31, 2010, 04:03 PM

Do you think al qaeda are mujahideen as well, or terrorists?

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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #4 - December 31, 2010, 04:09 PM

Quote from: donatelo on December 31, 2010, 04:03 PM
Do you think al qaeda are mujahideen as well, or terrorists?

What's the difference?
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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #5 - December 31, 2010, 04:11 PM

Quote from: Aphrodite on December 31, 2010, 02:27 PM
The very ones who were "aroused" by the soviet occupation are now aroused by the american occupation........they do say you reap what you sow

Aphrodite is aroused by this as well

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #6 - December 31, 2010, 04:26 PM

It's worse than that. The CIA was on the ground assisting the insurgents prior to the Soviet intervention. It was a deliberate strategy to provoke Soviet intervention.

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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #7 - December 31, 2010, 04:37 PM

Quote from: Q-Man on December 31, 2010, 04:26 PM
It's worse than that. The CIA was on the ground assisting the insurgents prior to the Soviet intervention. It was a deliberate strategy to provoke Soviet intervention.

Didn't know that - Wiki is pretty scarce when it comes to period prior to Soviet intervention. What was CIA hoping to gain from Soviet intervention?
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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #8 - December 31, 2010, 04:45 PM

You damn skippy it is. The shit I put in there years ago and sourced is gone now. Unfortunately I can't be bothered replacing everything the bastards there throw down the memory hole (and I almost suspect there are people clandestinely working for the US government on Wiki ensuring embarrassing parts of history are removed).

Quote
Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html

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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #9 - December 31, 2010, 05:01 PM

Quote from: Kenan on December 31, 2010, 04:01 PM
@Aphrodite

You seriously didn't know that Americans, Brits & others were helping the Mujahideen in Afghanistan? They even provided state-of-the-art anti-aircraft missiles called Stingers so that Mujahideen could take down Soviet helicopters: "The Central Intelligence Agency supplied nearly 500 Stingers (some sources claim 1,500–2,000) to the Mujahideen in Afghanistan during Operation Cyclone, the Soviet war in Afghanistan, in the 1980s. These are thought to have had a decisive impact on the war."

Btw have you seen Rambo III?

United States, UK, France, Germany & others also supplied Saddam with weapons and know-how in the '80.

Recognize the guy on the right?

I knew the CIA, ISI, Saudi intelligence, certain muslims (osama, abdullah azzam) were supporting them but I didn't know about the brits. Yeah apparently the taliban still have some of those stingers but they need new batteries or summat to use them. Yeah I've seen the rambo film. Have you seen the 9th company? Awesome film! Lol @ americans they end up fighting the very people they supported.
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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #10 - December 31, 2010, 05:06 PM

Quote from: billy on December 31, 2010, 04:11 PM
Aphrodite is aroused by this as well

I'm not aroused by war at all. Its why I want it to end.
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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #11 - December 31, 2010, 05:23 PM

I believe ya

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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #12 - December 31, 2010, 05:25 PM

I don't care if you do or don't
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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #13 - December 31, 2010, 05:25 PM

Quote from: Q-Man on December 31, 2010, 04:45 PM
You damn skippy it is. The shit I put in there years ago and sourced is gone now. Unfortunately I can't be bothered replacing everything the bastards there throw down the memory hole (and I almost suspect there are people clandestinely working for the US government on Wiki ensuring embarrassing parts of history are removed).

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html

Thanks.

You actually posted some good quality stuff on Wiki and it was removed? Were you told why?

Quote from: Aphrodite on December 31, 2010, 05:01 PM
Have you seen the 9th company?

The Russian film? I did; quite interesting.
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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #14 - January 01, 2011, 04:06 PM

Quote from: Aphrodite on December 31, 2010, 05:01 PM
I knew the CIA, ISI, Saudi intelligence, certain muslims (osama, abdullah azzam) were supporting them but I didn't know about the brits.

Really? Weird. MI6 was heavily involved.

Quote
Have you seen the 9th company? Awesome film!

It was okay. Could have been so much better, though. That and they very greatly exaggerated the Russian casualty rate in that battle-- I mean to a ridiculous level-- in real life 6 out of 39 Soviet troops were killed but in the movie only one fuckin dude survives.

Quote
Lol @ americans they end up fighting the very people they supported.

Yeah, I fail to see the humor in it.

Quote from: Kenan on December 31, 2010, 05:25 PM
Thanks.

You actually posted some good quality stuff on Wiki and it was removed? Were you told why?

No. I gave up on Wikipedia editing a long time ago. I can't deal with the constant political edits, deletions and reverts-- and the assholes who do it know a lot of other Wikipedia editors and are experts in Wikipedia's bullshit bureaucratic rules, which puts me at a disadvantage and I have no desire to invest the kind of time they do into getting my way. I lost a revert war on this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitrokhin_Archive#Disinformation_campaign_against_the_United_States where I put "allegedly" in the sentence stating Philip Agee was a KGB asset (which is not corroborated, to my knowledge, by anything outside of the Mitrokhin Archive which is itself of dubious reliability), and shortly after that and some other bullshit I just gave up. Fuck Wikipedia.

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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #15 - January 08, 2011, 11:23 PM

Quote from: Kenan on December 31, 2010, 04:09 PM
What's the difference?

'Mujahideen''s translation would be 'freedom fighters', calling them 'mujahideen' means you support their cause.

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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #16 - January 08, 2011, 11:34 PM

Actually freedom fighter in arabic would be summat like "Al muharrir". Mujahideen means strugglers, in context those who struggle in jihad. But yeah calling them the mujahideen implies you believe they're an Islamic army and are involved in a noble cause.
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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #17 - January 09, 2011, 12:13 AM

Yes, so do you call al qaeda mujahideen? Whom do you call mujahideen and whom do you call terrorists, how do you make the distinction?

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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #18 - January 09, 2011, 12:27 AM

If by al-qaeda you mean those who did 9/11 or the ones who blow shias up in Iraq then I regard such people as terrorists (as I do those who indiscriminately bomb and then call it 'collateral damage')* I don't call any group mujahideen coz I'm not a muslim. I only have sympathy for those who use violence in self-defence and defend their country.

* I hope no-one tells me that the US and NATO forces don't kill civilians, I agree its NOT their policy to cause as much civilian casualties. But well they can be reckless and many get away with their crimes.
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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #19 - January 09, 2011, 05:10 AM

Quote from: Aphrodite on January 09, 2011, 12:27 AM
I don't call any group mujahideen coz I'm not a muslim.

But you just did in the title of this thread. Anyhow, thanks for clarifying your position...

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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #20 - January 09, 2011, 02:47 PM

The west should have given the Soviets carte blanche in the place. Unfortunately a religious nut got into the White House in whose mind the Soviets' "godlessness" was their greatest sin and who felt a natural affinity with people who believed in some kind of a god - even if it wasn't exactly the same one as him. Islam's generally pro-capitalist nature would also have commended it to Reagan in the face of the "evil empire" of nationalizing central planners.

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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #21 - January 09, 2011, 04:50 PM

Islam is pro-capitalist? Islam does allow an individual to make as much $ as he can yes but I wouldn't call it capitalist esp. since it rejects usury/interests and things like natural resources are supposed to be STATE owned (based on hadith) if Islam is anything economically its socialist.

Quote from: donatelo on January 09, 2011, 05:10 AM
But you just did in the title of this thread. Anyhow, thanks for clarifying your position...

That was the title of the article.
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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #22 - January 09, 2011, 05:28 PM

Quote from: DH on January 09, 2011, 02:47 PM
The west should have given the Soviets carte blanche in the place. Unfortunately a religious nut got into the White House in whose mind the Soviets' "godlessness" was their greatest sin and who felt a natural affinity with people who believed in some kind of a god - even if it wasn't exactly the same one as him. Islam's generally pro-capitalist nature would also have commended it to Reagan in the face of the "evil empire" of nationalizing central planners.

I think your reading of history is slightly off. In reality didn't care what religion Afghanistan was, they were going to fund a resistance in any case. They were afraid that the Russians were going to break out of the encirclment, and possibly move towards the oil fields of Iran. Religion was just a helpful tool to bring in funding and organization to the resistance.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #23 - January 09, 2011, 05:32 PM

It was America's revenge for Vietnam.

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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #24 - January 09, 2011, 05:34 PM

Quote from: Aphrodite on January 09, 2011, 04:50 PM
Islam is pro-capitalist? Islam does allow an individual to make as much $ as he can yes but I wouldn't call it capitalist esp. since it rejects usury/interests and things like natural resources are supposed to be STATE owned (based on hadith) if Islam is anything economically its socialist.

Islam pre-dates capitalism. I don't think it makes sense to discuss it in terms of socialism/capitalism, which are both modern ideas. Like many systems both pre-dating and post-dating these ideas, it contains both collective/statist and individualistic economic components.

The defining quality of modern socialist thought is workers having control over the means of production-- since Islam doesn't mention such a thing it cannot be socialist as we would think of socialism post-Marx. Collectivist or statist does not necessarily mean socialist.

Similarly, as Islam does not contain a specific ideology about open markets or a specific methodology about conglomeration of capital, it is not capitalist. It may be accurate to say that Islam is anti-capitalist due to rules on finance and collective ownership of natural resources (though I wouldn't go that far), but even then, again, it is not socialist-- only anti-capitalist in the sense that it advocates a primitive semi-feudal trade system developed prior to modern capitalism.

But you are right to say DH's statement that Islam is "pro-capitalist" is fundamentally unsound.

Quote from: deusvult on January 09, 2011, 05:28 PM
I think your reading of history is slightly off. In reality didn't care what religion Afghanistan was, they were going to fund a resistance in any case. They were afraid that the Russians were going to break out of the encirclment, and possibly move towards the oil fields of Iran. Religion was just a helpful tool to bring in funding and organization to the resistance.

Exactly. That and there was a broader plan to spark jihad within the USSR's borders, and that forcing the USSR to fight rearguard actions in Central Asia and Eastern Europe (specifically Solidarnosc in Poland) was designed to weaken the Soviet Union's economy-- little did the architects of this strategy realize just how effective it would be.

But in any case, yeah, the "Afghan Trap" had nothing to do with ideology of the pro-religion US versus the godless Soviets-- it was just a means to an end as you say. Also it started under Carter, not Reagan.

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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #25 - January 10, 2011, 05:57 AM

Quote from: Aphrodite on January 09, 2011, 04:50 PM
Islam is pro-capitalist? Islam does allow an individual to make as much $ as he can yes but I wouldn't call it capitalist esp. since it rejects usury/interests and things like natural resources are supposed to be STATE owned (based on hadith) if Islam is anything economically its socialist.

That was the title of the article.

Islam advocates an essentially low tax market economy based on free trade and an extremely brutal response to transgression of private property sanctity with a safety net for the poor so threadbare that US Tea Partiers would cream their pants just contemplating it. That land is state owned (the property of Allah) makes it no more socialist than the feudal system where all land was the monarch's by divine right to dole out to whom he saw fit.

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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #26 - January 10, 2011, 06:08 AM

You should probably read Qutub and Maududi. They are the ones who started the "Islamic economics" idea. And their writings are decidedly anti capitalist. Given that they were mostly shameless copiers of communist and socialist ideas mixed with Islamic business practices it shouldn't come as a surprise.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #27 - January 10, 2011, 06:12 AM

Does the "low tax" and perpetual war idea seem a little at odds DH? I always thought the whole Jiyah and zakat is a really low tax! sounded more like propaganda to me when combined with the ambitious goals imagined in a wet dream sort of way by its proponents. Do you listen to the things they propose? It is mostly populous dribble without a tether to the real world.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #28 - January 10, 2011, 06:20 AM

Jizya is a discriminatory punishment imposed on Jews etc for not accepting Islam - not an egalitarian socialistic redistributive measure. The rate of zakat has generally been set at around 2.5% - hardly soaking the rich.

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Re: UK discussed plans to help mujahideen weeks after Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
Reply #29 - January 10, 2011, 07:24 AM

Sigh. I have to spell it out for you. People claim the Islamic state will do x, y z. These things require money. The state has to get the money from somewhere. I am quite aware of what the taxes are and their historic rates. The idea of Islamic economics and how it would apply to the state do not exist in a coherent form. Economic theory was developed after the Islamic state. As such people read into the " Islamic state" whatever they want. Qutub and Maududi read distinctly socialist and communist attitudes into it. Qutub advocated state resources and utilities be state run and advocated since all land belongs to Allah and the state would represent the shadow of God that there should be strong state premptions on property. Maududi was more laise fair about state control. In Western countries the rhetoric has populist overtones. Newstory comes out about terrible hospital coverage of citizens you can be sure to find some Islamist to be advocating that Islamic hospitals can do it better. Traffic problems in London? Islam has the answer ( by making non Muslims drive on off streets), then there is the perpetual war which inspite of free trade policy normally does not bode well for creating efficient markets. To say that an Islamic state would be anti or pro anything doesn't really work because the Islamic state was a proto economic theory.

Stringent property rights is hardly advocated in an Islamic state and is even worse than modern democratic socialist states. Property rights means I get to choose my rules on my property. Shariah goes into long prescriptions on what can be built, what can't be built, what laws can be approved on private property, what can't. It even tells people how to dress on their own property. The idea of stringent property rights in an Islamic state is just as chimerical as saying that non Muslims are free to make whatever laws they want as long as they don't interfere with Shariah.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
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