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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hi from on the fence muslim

 (Read 119776 times)
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  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #540 - February 13, 2011, 12:57 AM

    Smiley

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #541 - February 13, 2011, 01:03 AM

    LOL muddy, it's possible that the goat did it, but I am wondering how debunker, who has every explanation for 1000 tricky Islamic issues, came up with 6666? HOW?


    see above my beloved. It's called google.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #542 - February 13, 2011, 01:04 AM

    His ass is just busted! Same as the ass of Zakir Naik busted by TheRationalizer here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymf5MdwK3M8

    Wow!  Great video, TheRationalizer. Afro

    You are looking cool too.  Afro cool2

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #543 - February 13, 2011, 01:05 AM

    I loved the video - thanks, muddy!  Afro

    debunker, are you a mason? Which degree?


    although i'm not sure what do you mean by mason:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mason

    the answer is no (checked the entire list, and none fit my situation).

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #544 - February 13, 2011, 01:20 AM

    see above my beloved. It's called google.


    And you are proud of yourself, I suppose? Your iman rest on Google. 1-2% is not the issue here. The issue is how seriously you take your deen.
    How did you arrive at your statement that Allah is infinite?, Ask.com?

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #545 - February 13, 2011, 01:29 AM

    oh come on ALM, drop the cute act, and tell me: do you think that, assuming angels exist, we can have 8 infinite angels? how about infinite number of infinite angels?

    forget about angels. Can we have infinite number of infinite, simultaneously existing, universes?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #546 - February 13, 2011, 01:40 AM

    Mathematically speaking yes, I suppose; in angel surreality - I don't know. Now, how did you arrive at your belief that Allah is infinite - I just want to learn what kind of Muslim you are.

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #547 - February 13, 2011, 01:56 AM

    Quote
    Now, how did you arrive at your belief that Allah is infinite - I just want to learn what kind of Muslim you are.

    Although the word, "infinite" doesn't exist in ancient Arabic, there are many instances in the Quran that introduces this notion and attributes it to God. For example, in two different places in the Quran, God says that His words are endless (seas of ink aren't enough).

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #548 - February 13, 2011, 02:21 AM

    I am ashamed to say - I have not memorized the book. Do you mind pointing the verses in question? As many as you feel are enough to prove that God of the Koran is infinite.

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #549 - February 13, 2011, 02:27 AM

    yes, and here's why: Let's assume that even 10% of the verses seem like contradictions and untruths to me (even though I honestly believe they're far far less than that), then given that I'm convinced in the rest (90%) then chances are I'm simply misreading those 10% for whatever reason.


    Aren't you doing here the same thing you were complaining the Shia were doing, in this discussion: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=14542.msg400317#msg400317 ?

    Quote from: debunker
    shia believe that the lineage of Muhammed, all the way down to Adam, doesn't contain any pagans. Which is very wrong of course, and the Quran itself exposes this since it called the father of Abraham God's enemy, and an idol worshipper whom God won't forgive despite Abraham's promise to his father to pray to God on his behalf. Of course, since Muhammed comes off the lineage of Ishmael, this means that, according to Quran, AT LEAST one person in the lineage of Muhammed was certainly a pagan.

    Now, you present this iron clad proof to them, and they tell you, after much heated debate: no, it was his uncle!!!! when Abraham was calling his father, "father", he really meant uncle!

    That's just one example of many I bombarded them with (and I only use the watertight proofs) and that didn't move them an inch. They simply read the Quran however they want.


    Aren't they effectively saying that "given that we're convinced of the rest 99% percent of things, then chances are we're simply misreading this verse for whatever reason" ?

    And later you said:

    Quote
    they read the Quran however they wish. If the word is “father” and father, in Arabic, means nothing but father, and that destroys a myth they believe in, and potentially jeopardize the credibility of their Mullahs (which was my goal, btw), then they’re going to read father as uncle.


    So I could paraphrase this and say that "debunker reads the Quran however he wishes. If there's a clear contradiction in the Quran, and that destroys a myth he believes in, and potentially jeopardizes the credibility of the Quran, then he’s going to say he misreads the whole thing for whatever reason", right?
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #550 - February 13, 2011, 02:36 AM

    Quote
    I am ashamed to say - I have not memorized the book. Do you mind pointing the verses in question? As many as you feel are enough to prove that God of the Koran is infinite.


    Well, it is early morning in Utopia (where I live), and I haven’t been to work the entire last week because I was sick (yes, people do get sick even in Utopia), and if I stay awake any longer I won’t be able to go to work today either and chances are even Utopians can’t be that tolerant of me (missing so many work days). So, I’ll just list 3 verses, for now:


    18:109; 31:27.

    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/018.qmt.html
    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/031.qmt.html


    16:40 (infinite power)
    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/016.qmt.html


    Later.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #551 - February 13, 2011, 02:39 AM

    @ Sobieiski

    if you think so.

    But really, believing that the word father is really just father won't change a thing except they would stop believing in the lies of their Mullahs (something I did with my Mullahs ages ago).

    Besides, the issues I was referring to, aren't as binary or clear cut as father = father.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #552 - February 13, 2011, 02:47 AM

    Debunker, are you gonna get back to me about the infinity - I can wait for you to find the verses. I am assuming that there's more than "seas of ink" to your argument. edit oops

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #553 - February 13, 2011, 03:04 AM

    16:40 infinite power. All we have there is for God to bring something into existence he can say be and (by magic) it is. That may be pretty powerful, but infinite power? Can he say 'b' and it is? Can he just think it into existence? Maybe, but it's not in the verses.

    18:109 and 31:27 talk about very large, yet clearly finite amounts of ink. I can say that if seas were ink and someone was to write down with it all the words written on the internet, they would run out of ink. I would probably be right. Is the internet infinite? - No. So in exactly the same manner the verses don't even state that words of God are infinite - he could simply write a lot of stuff apparently.

    Maybe you feel that it was implied somehow in the verses that God is infinite but that would be your interpretation only. The verses do not say that God is infinite. Do they?

    What else you got?

    Oh, and please get some sleep. Rest is good for God's critters, he created a night for us to rest Wink

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #554 - February 13, 2011, 03:13 AM

    Alex, first of all, how can I endear your name in Russian? I'm growing quite fond you, i'm afraid.

    anyway, it's not night anymore, i just prayed the dawn prayer, and i won't come back before the weekend (that's Thurs/Fri, in Utopia), and even then i can't guarantee i'd come come back... it depends on my volatile mood (which I'm trying to employ towards career gains), but given this new attachment I'm feeling towards you, I think I'm afraid I'll be back sooner than I wish.

    Anyway, if you describe (the keyword is describe) that the endless sea isn't enough to encompass someone's words, then you are saying those words are infinite. (do you see the end of th Ocean when you look at it? now recall the keyword: description).

    and if saying be! and it becomes, isn't indication of an infinite power to you, then don't worry my beloved, we'll find something else for ya!


    In any case, like I told you before, later my dearest.  

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #555 - February 13, 2011, 03:21 AM

    Debunker! My dearest! Please save this kind of stuff for PM - my girlfriend is not afraid to go to jail. (I am not worried about you, but about myself rather).

    Anyway get some rest and when you come back show me the word 'endless'. Where is it from?

    031.027
    YUSUFALI: And if all the trees on earth were pens and the ocean (were ink), with seven oceans behind it to add to its (supply), yet would not the words of Allah be exhausted (in the writing): for Allah is Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom.

    018.109
    YUSUFALI: Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid."

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #556 - February 13, 2011, 03:23 AM

    no, no, no... it's not that kind of attachment.

    Clearly, anyone when they look at the ocean, they see no end to it, dearest Alex (how to endear that in Russsian again?)

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #557 - February 13, 2011, 04:23 AM

    'no, no, no' you say... but I've heard that many times before from pretty young babes, while their eyes said 'yes, yes, yes!'

    Now to more serious issues. I would reveal my cute nickname to you, but the problem is: how do I stop others from calling me that name? It would give them magic power over me. I could only accept it from you. And Ishinka. Don't tell MaB about it. He is a jealous turk.

    The Infinity! What is the infinity? (It is) Without End. Look for the Infinity and you will find Insanity. So cruel is reality.

    So infinite is the same as endless. You say ancient Arabs didn't have the term 'infinite'. Did they have 'end'? - Yes. Did they have 'less'? - Sure. So if the intent was there to clearly state that something is infinite (endless) it could have been done.

    Random memory: In the Russian army there was an order, referring to digging ditches: "from here until the afternoon". People are creative even with limited words, aren't they?

    Sure I see no end of an ocean. Also instead of observing the sun landing in murky spring I can say that it was landing behind it as if over an ocean. So what? It's only an interpretation to suit observations of reality. Because it suits my observations of reality it does not make it the right interpretation. But where is the spring? (<-Rhetoric only.) Our understanding of reality changes, does that mean nothing can be known for sure about the verses from God? Why bother understanding them? Where is umm-ul-kitab? (More rhetoric.)

    I guess what I am trying to say is: show me not the possibility to interpret the Koran as if God is infinite (I could do so myself), but show me where it says that God is so big he has no end, endless, infinite. Carried by infinite 8 angels. If you tell me that our understanding of such things is limited and we can not understand how an infinitely large God would appear to us coming down from the skies, then I will repeat my question: why bother?

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #558 - February 13, 2011, 05:38 AM

    Alexei, I think debunker was saying he took "endless" to be a figure of speech, a plain exaggeration, rather than thinking of it in the mathematical sense.

    I'd say the Qur'an had a different objective in saying such. I think it purposefully aimed to achieve an eloquence and kind of esoterism that would leave those who heard it dumbfounded. Like your mention of "we can not understand how an infinitely large god would appear to us coming down from the skies". It gets redundant in the process.

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #559 - February 13, 2011, 08:42 AM


    @Debunker

    In Russia the petname for Alexander (Alex) is Sacha.

    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #560 - February 13, 2011, 09:37 AM

    @Alyosha

    I think some theologians like to draw a distinction between a quantitative infinite (as in an infinite number of something) and a qualitative infinite, meaning, presumably, existing without beginning and without end.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #561 - February 13, 2011, 01:26 PM

    what a desperate cry baby you are!

    I googled the following question:

    *how many verses in the quran?*

    and used the first answer i found. so what? 6000 or 5000, the idea stays the same, you stupid attention whore.

    what a desperate cry baby you are!

    I googled the following question:

    *how many verses in the quran?*

    and used the first answer i found. so what? 6000 or 5000, the idea stays the same, you stupid attention whore.


    So he would rather find the answer in tafseer or count someone else's word for it rather then counting himself. Typical muslim.. Cheesy

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #562 - February 13, 2011, 02:23 PM

    @ Sacha

    Quote
    I guess what I am trying to say is: show me not the possibility to interpret the Koran as if God is infinite (I could do so myself), but show me where it says that God is so big he has no end, endless, infinite. Carried by infinite 8 angels. If you tell me that our understanding of such things is limited and we can not understand how an infinitely large God would appear to us coming down from the skies, then I will repeat my question: why bother?


    Nothing comes to mind, dearest sacha, except verses of this type (like the one that says God will have the heavens folded in His right hand). I understand you much better now. You want a verse that says God's words are endless. PERIOD. You don't care for verses talking about seas of ink and trees turning into pens. You want a verse that says God is so big he has no beginning nor end. PERIOD. But a verse that says the vast skies will be in His hand, is irrelevant. You want a verse that says God has infinite power. PERIOD. But a verse that says God can will anything into existence, if He so pleases, by sayinng Be! and it becomes, is just a magic trick.

    Sachito, I guess now you know what kind of a Muslim I am (your original question), so let's not waste my precious posts on this issue again. (Please keep in mind the bet you made in the other page -- that I shall be an apostate before my 3000-th post).

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #563 - February 13, 2011, 02:28 PM

    So he would rather find the answer in tafseer or count someone else's word for it rather then counting himself. Typical muslim.. Cheesy


     vomit

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #564 - February 13, 2011, 02:47 PM

    Yes. God does as He pleases.


    Yeah, we lost our way a bit. I'm just trying to figure out your motive and reasoning for worship of this particular god, and how it is worthy of worship in your eyes. I'm just not understanding it, or missing the point. There doesn't seem to be any integrity there, no solid base for it other than "it's written in a book I sorta like but don't understand". I thought there would be some deeper, compelling reasoning behind it.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #565 - February 13, 2011, 02:55 PM

    Quote
    Yeah, we lost our way a bit. I'm just trying to figure out your motive and reasoning for worship of this particular god, and how it is worthy of worship in your eyes. I'm just not understanding it, or missing the point. There doesn't seem to be any integrity there, no solid base for it other than "it's written in a book I sorta like but don't understand". I thought there would be some deeper, compelling reasoning behind it.


    I already explained to you what i eally think. But then you offered your sincere point of view, which was based on certain premises (based on how you actually read the Quran). My answers were based on such premises, although my last answer (God does as He pleases) would have been the same regardless of the course our discussion took.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #566 - February 13, 2011, 02:58 PM

    @ Ishina

    I read somewhere that even if the Quranic God were to reveal Himself to you, you would still deny (or reject) Him. What did you really mean by that?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #567 - February 13, 2011, 03:03 PM

    All God needs is to show up in size 10 times bigger then human, and looks like human (because he claimed to create us in his image) And show us his merciful miracles and blessings!

    He is so great, it is absolutely not impossible for him.  Trust me, we all would turn muslim all over again. Just ask your God to individually visit us in the description I provided.

    Thank you!!

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #568 - February 13, 2011, 03:06 PM

    Quote
     debunker: Yes. God does as He pleases.

     Sure "HE" does., that male god from mail men "The messengers" is really oppressive, powerful,  egotistic maniac  
    Yeah, we lost our way a bit. I'm just trying to figure out your motive and reasoning for worship of this particular god, and how it is worthy of worship in your eyes. I'm just not understanding it, or missing the point. There doesn't seem to be any integrity there, no solid base for it other than "it's written in a book I sorta like but don't understand". I thought there would be some deeper, compelling reasoning behind it.

    Well, I think Ishina also likes God., but Ishina wants a God who  will listen to her and work what she says    it    to do ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #569 - February 13, 2011, 03:07 PM

    Yes. God does as He pleases.

    Why did this god please to create unneeded things?

    Go back to the angels.

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
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