Hi from on the fence muslim

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- Ishina
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #630 - February 13, 2011, 04:44 PM

Quote from: Zeeman on February 13, 2011, 04:35 PM
All I can say is that HE is not a personal GOD, but rather a GOD as defined by Einstein. A GOD who is solely a creator.

Einstein didn't define GOD as a creator figure.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #631 - February 13, 2011, 04:47 PM

Guys, its a really good idea to keep deism alive! Zeeman's deism was one of the actual reason he helped me quit islam.

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #632 - February 13, 2011, 04:47 PM

Quote from: Zeeman on February 13, 2011, 04:41 PM
I agree. But it is more rational than theism. And closer in rationality to Atheism and Agnosticism.

I wouldn't call it more rational than theism. Both are irrational leaps of faith without compelling reason.

It is simmilar to atheism, except that one massive glaring difference: atheists don't believe in God and you do.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #633 - February 13, 2011, 04:49 PM

Quote from: muddy on February 13, 2011, 04:47 PM
Guys, its a really good idea to keep deism alive!

I'm sure deists are more than happy to keep it alive for you. I'm also sure, if the Christians can survive the lions of the Coliseum, deists can survive a little scrutiny on a forum.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #634 - February 13, 2011, 04:50 PM

Quote
BUT I CANNOT PROVE HOW OR WHY I FEEL WHAT IS THE TRUTH IS TRUE, AS IT IS NOTHING OBJECTIVE, BUT RATHER VERY SUBJECTIVE.

So, going by this line of post-modernist "rationale", what makes you objectively denounce debunker's god as flawed and lacking proof yet claim yours to be flawless, immune to proof and unfalsifiable?

Against the ruin of the world, there
is only one defense: the creative act.

-- Kenneth Rexroth
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #635 - February 13, 2011, 04:54 PM

Trust me, it really help when a muslim is doctrined to believe in one God for 30+ years of his life unquestionably. To prove mohammad was a liar and the God is still there to look after you is much better transition, then instantly orphaning someone from both God and mohammad.

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #636 - February 13, 2011, 04:57 PM

Quote from: muddy on February 13, 2011, 04:54 PM
Trust me, it really help when a muslim is doctrined to believe in one God for 30+ years of his life unquestionably. To prove mohammad was a liar and the God is still there to look after you is much better transition, then instantly orphaning someone from both God and mohammad.

The deist God isn't there to look after anyone.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #637 - February 13, 2011, 04:59 PM

Quote from: arX on February 13, 2011, 04:50 PM
So, going by this line of post-modernist "rationale", what makes you objectively denounce debunker's god as flawed and lacking proof yet claim yours to be flawless, immune to proof and unfalsifiable?

Well, there is a difference. My GOD made no claims, nor spoke to any human. My belief is that he only created the universe and set it into motion. And the way he made the universe and set it into motion is flawless. He does not interfere in this universe, and does not intervene in anyone's life, or answer anyone's prayers. HE DOES NOT HEAL NOR HATE AMPUTEES.

The problem with theism is that it defines a GOD that answers prayers. Mine does not, and mine never ever spoke to human race either. I believe in evolution, and am a proponent of Panspermia.

But what ever facts or theories science throws at me, I shall accept, because I have no religious convictions blocking my rationality.

The most merciful Allah, who is more merciful than your own mortal mother, is capable of punishing you for eternity for a finite sin committed in a finite lifetime with finite knowledge, while your mother nor any living creature that is NOT a sadistic mother fucker would never commit such an act.
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #638 - February 13, 2011, 05:03 PM

@ Ishina

Quote
Why would I? Why should I? For what purpose? Just because something might have my respect, it doesn't automatically follow that I ought to worship it. There is no chain of logic in between. We've gone from A to C without B.

Ok so assuming that:

1- the (uncreated) creator of the universe exists and he proved to you that he exists.
2- you respect him.
3- he made a command of your worship, not because he needs, he just demands it.

then you still don’t see why you should oblige.

I tried to explain to you my position by giving you the analogy of paying my dues to my debtor regardless of whether they needed it or not and regardless of whether I liked them or not, but you don’t see my point, but I think I see yours: God can never exist.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #639 - February 13, 2011, 05:03 PM

@ Zeeman

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My GOD is flawless, but HE did not create this suffering.

So this suffering was created independently of your God?

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HE is totally indifferent to our suffering on EARTH.

You seem to be implying He wouldn’t be indifferent to our suffering elsewhere?

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DEIST philosophy is simple, that GOD is like a Master Engineer who created the Universe and set it in motion, but does not break his own laws to interfere on EARTH by causing MIRACLES or sending REVELATIONS.

Didn’t this engineer know, beforehand, the consequences of his design? Or was His design exactly meant to give such horrible results?

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This suffering is a natural cycle of the life and death. The most of it is created by human stupidity, greed, and selfishness. Some of it is created by natural effects of tectonics, gravity tides, water cycles, astronomical collisions etc. etc. We cannot blame GOD for any of this.

Why not? He was the designer, of all of this, wasn’t he?

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GOD is free of all blame, uncreated, unfathomable, formless, undetectable, unassailable and totally beyond our understanding. Think of it this way, how would entities in a super computer feel, if they never knew what created them. Such is our state in this universe.

Free of all blame? Regardless of the consequences of his actions? Like designing this life with very painful consequences?

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YES, LIFE IS UNFAIR, and we nor GOD chooses where we are born or not.

Ok, so God *cannot* choose where we are born. Is it because He sort of created a random process without knowing its outcomes?

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But think of Universe as a playground for the souls. Let us assume for a minute that we are in a cycle of perpetual reincarnation on this planet, or if you prefer, assume that we die and turn to dust. Either way we cannot prove either. But is it important?

No, not in this discussion, it isn’t.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #640 - February 13, 2011, 05:06 PM

Quote from: olweasel on February 13, 2011, 04:30 PM
No.

I mean: why would Allah create the 8 angels to carry his throne when he could do it himself? Just because?

He didn't need to create them or else he won't be called a creator, since he created the universe to start with.

oh, ok. Think of the angels as God's words, then.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #641 - February 13, 2011, 05:07 PM

Quote from: debunker
yes, and here's why: Let's assume that even 10% of the verses seem like contradictions and untruths to me (even though I honestly believe they're far far less than that), then given that I'm convinced in the rest (90%) then chances are I'm simply misreading those 10% for whatever reason.

Quote from: Sobieski
Aren't you doing here the same thing you were complaining the Shia were doing, in this discussion: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=14542.msg400317#msg400317 ? :

Quote from: debunker
shia believe that the lineage of Muhammed, all the way down to Adam, doesn't contain any pagans. Which is very wrong of course, and the Quran itself exposes this since it called the father of Abraham God's enemy, and an idol worshipper whom God won't forgive despite Abraham's promise to his father to pray to God on his behalf. Of course, since Muhammed comes off the lineage of Ishmael, this means that, according to Quran, AT LEAST one person in the lineage of Muhammed was certainly a pagan.

Now, you present this iron clad proof to them, and they tell you, after much heated debate: no, it was his uncle!!!! when Abraham was calling his father, "father", he really meant uncle!

That's just one example of many I bombarded them with (and I only use the watertight proofs) and that didn't move them an inch. They simply read the Quran however they want.

Quote from: Sobieski
Aren't they effectively saying that "given that we're convinced of the rest 99% percent of things, then chances are we're simply misreading this verse for whatever reason" ?

Quote from: debunker on February 13, 2011, 02:39 AM
@ Sobieiski

if you think so.

Regardless of what I think, can one rightly say you are doing the same as they do? When confronted with problem verses, just say "I'm simply misreading this verse for whatever reason", like they do?

Quote from: debunker
But really, believing that the word father is really just father won't change a thing except they would stop believing in the lies of their Mullahs (something I did with my Mullahs ages ago).

And the contradictions being just contradictions won't change a thing except you would stop believing in the claims of the Quran (something you did with the Mullahs ages ago) ?

Quote from: debunker
Besides, the issues I was referring to, aren't as binary or clear cut as father = father.

You said you "(definitely) see" contradictions, so it's pretty clear cut. And it doesn't matter that the issue is not a binary one at word level (father/uncle), it is binary at a conceptual level (contradiction/non-contradiction).

So, in conclusion:

You correctly detected a major failure to accept reality when it comes to the Shia. Can you detect through an objective self-introspection a major failure to accept reality on your part as well? If not, remember, they can't either - because they simply don't want to. Isn't this the definition of "blind faith"?
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #642 - February 13, 2011, 05:14 PM

Quote
So this suffering was created independently of your God?

Yes. Because he allowed the universe and the world to evolve on its own. Any suffering that occurred as a result he was completely oblivious about. He did not predict much, nor did he ever intended to predict every fine detail of this experiment.

Quote
You seem to be implying He wouldn’t be indifferent to our suffering elsewhere?

He is indifferent to our suffering. He does not and cannot answer our prayers.

Quote
Didn’t this engineer know, beforehand, the consequences of his design? Or was His design exactly meant to give such horrible results?

We may as well be unintended consequence of his experiment.

Quote
Why not? He was the designer, of all of this, wasn’t he?

Because we are behind most of it. We can alleviate human condition ourselves. We have to evolve with time and accept what we are and what we lack.

Quote
Free of all blame? Regardless of the consequences of his actions? Like designing this life with very painful consequences?

Yes, because he did nothing intentionally accept setting creation of the universe in motion. And whatever happened after that happened by pure chance.

Quote
Ok, so God *cannot* choose where we are born. Is it because He sort of created a random process without knowing its outcomes?

Yes the safest bet is that he triggered the BIG BANG, and is merely a GOD of the gaps.

HE MAY OR MAY NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL LAWS OF UNIVERSE, BUT IT IS LIKELY A FEW BASIC LAWS WERE DESIGNED BY HIM. THINK OF UNIVERSE AS A VERY VERY VERY LARGE HADRON COLLIDER..

The most merciful Allah, who is more merciful than your own mortal mother, is capable of punishing you for eternity for a finite sin committed in a finite lifetime with finite knowledge, while your mother nor any living creature that is NOT a sadistic mother fucker would never commit such an act.
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #643 - February 13, 2011, 05:15 PM

@ Kenan

I never seek "morality" in the Quran. And to view the Quran as a book that promises rewards and threatens punishment to keep people in line with a certain code of conduct is to miss the point entirely. The Quran is first and foremost a book about God, everything else mentioned in that book is marginal, including reward and punishment.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #644 - February 13, 2011, 05:17 PM

@ sobeiski

in case you missed it, i already agreed to your point in my last response to you.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #645 - February 13, 2011, 05:18 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on February 13, 2011, 09:37 AM
@Alyosha

I think some theologians like to draw a distinction between a quantitative infinite (as in an infinite number of something) and a qualitative infinite, meaning, presumably, existing without beginning and without end.

Zebedionok,

I was talking about Gods physical size as it is indicated by a verse where he will be carried down from heaven by 8 angels. Assuming this was a verse from a perfect book, I would expect it to be either 1. a helpful description of God, or 2. I would expect it to be replaced by a useful (in this life) verse and not just waste Muslims' time with some metaphorical descriptions of infinity that people can not understand. Either God can be described (in part), in which case I am assuming his weight (earth's gravity pulling on God) can be supported by eight angels, he has hands, face, etc, or we can not imagine anything about him in which case - why waste time with hundreds of inaccurate descriptions: powerful, knowing, big, merciful, etc? Why do we need ibn Kathir or similar apes to interpret the word of the Most high, (the infinite), the perfect? Was ibn Kathir at least a rasool, nabiy? - No, just another ape. It is clear that God had to send volumes and volumes of his own tafsirs in addition to the Koran if he did not want Muslims to accuse each other of all kinds of evils due to different interpretations.

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #646 - February 13, 2011, 05:19 PM

@ Zeeman

Ok, so basically, to you God is a word that means *the creator of the universe* and nothing else?

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #647 - February 13, 2011, 05:20 PM

Correct... GOD to me is nothing more than CREATOR of universe... And nothing else.

The most merciful Allah, who is more merciful than your own mortal mother, is capable of punishing you for eternity for a finite sin committed in a finite lifetime with finite knowledge, while your mother nor any living creature that is NOT a sadistic mother fucker would never commit such an act.
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #648 - February 13, 2011, 05:22 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 13, 2011, 03:30 PM
the why is that i believe i don't even own my soul, God does.

Quote from: Ishina
Why?

I think you didn't answer her question.
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #649 - February 13, 2011, 05:23 PM

Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on February 13, 2011, 05:18 PM
Zebedionok,

I was talking about Gods physical size as it is indicated by a verse where he will be carried down from heaven by 8 angels. Assuming this was a verse from a perfect book, I would expect it to be either 1. a helpful description of God, or 2. I would expect it to be replaced by a useful (in this life) verse and not just waste Muslims' time with some metaphorical descriptions of infinity that people can not understand. Either God can be described (in part), in which case I am assuming his weight (earth's gravity pulling on God) can be supported by eight angels, he has hands, face, etc, or we can not imagine anything about him in which case - why waste time with hundreds of inaccurate descriptions: powerful, knowing, big, merciful, etc? Why do we need ibn Kathir or similar apes to interpret the word of the Most high, (the infinite), the perfect? Was ibn Kathir at least a rasool, nabiy? - No, just another ape. It is clear that God had to send volumes and volumes of his own tafsirs in addition to the Koran if he did not want Muslims to accuse each other of all kinds of evils due to different interpretations.

wait, that verse about 8 angels carrying the throne was describing God descending to earth??!!!

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #650 - February 13, 2011, 05:24 PM

Quote from: Zeeman on February 13, 2011, 05:20 PM
Correct... GOD to me is nothing more than CREATOR of universe... And nothing else.

explains your point of view perfectly.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #651 - February 13, 2011, 05:26 PM

Quote from: Sobieski on February 13, 2011, 05:22 PM
I think you didn't answer her question.

of course becasue she doesn't belive i owe my creator anything at all.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #652 - February 13, 2011, 05:32 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 13, 2011, 05:15 PM
I never seek "morality" in the Quran. And to view the Quran as a book that promises rewards and threatens punishment to keep people in line with a certain code of conduct is to miss the point entirely. The Quran is first and foremost a book about God, everything else mentioned in that book is marginal, including reward and punishment.

I wasn't talking about Quran. I was talking about god. God is the one that promises rewards and threatens punishments etc. Provided that Quran is the word of god, that it verily describes the attributes of god (at least in the limited way we can comprehend), that is clearly sets out the rules and that it is to be understood in the literal sense.

Imo this is the way to truly 'worship' God: the only way to show true respect for God (and hence be truly moral) is to act morally while ignoring God's existence.
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #653 - February 13, 2011, 05:36 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 13, 2011, 05:03 PM
@ Ishina

Ok so assuming that:

1- the (uncreated) creator of the universe exists and he proved to you that he exists.
2- you respect him.
3- he made a command of your worship, not because he needs, he just demands it.

then you still don’t see why you should oblige.

No, I still do not see why I should oblige. And you have yet to show me why I ought to oblige. Simply creating isn't the important thing. It's how it has treated it's creations that is the important thing.

If this hypothetical god had treated me and my fellow creations well in life, then I would be obliged to thank it, yes, and I might give it a nod of respect. Why does it follow that I ought to worship it though?

If however this hypothetical god had caused me to suffer in life, or will punish me for the flaws that it itself is responsible for, then no, absolutely not, I will not worship it, even if it commanded me. It would go against my whole nature to do so.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #654 - February 13, 2011, 05:37 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 13, 2011, 05:17 PM
@ sobeiski

in case you missed it, i already agreed to your point in my last response to you.

I surely do miss it, I don't see anywhere you agreeing to my point unfortunately. Your last response to me was this one, right? :

Quote from: debunker on February 13, 2011, 02:39 AM
@ Sobieiski

if you think so.

But really, believing that the word father is really just father won't change a thing except they would stop believing in the lies of their Mullahs (something I did with my Mullahs ages ago).

Besides, the issues I was referring to, aren't as binary or clear cut as father = father.

So you agree that you are rejecting reality, that the Quran contains indeed contradictions?

Quote from: debunker on February 13, 2011, 05:26 PM
of course becasue she doesn't belive i owe my creator anything at all.

So what if she doesn't believe? You do believe. Why do you believe you owe your "soul" to "Allah"?
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #655 - February 13, 2011, 05:52 PM

@ kenan

Quote
I wasn't talking about Quran. I was talking about god. God is the one that promises rewards and threatens punishments etc.

Yes, he does, but that’s besides the point, and you are making it the entire point! The central message of the Quran, as far as our actions are concerned, is absolute submission to God (6:162). Our good deeds are besides the point (25:23).

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #656 - February 13, 2011, 05:55 PM

@ sobeiski

Quote
So you agree that you are rejecting reality, that the Quran contains indeed contradictions?

No, I agree to the *possibility* of contradictions but that doesn't necessarily mean that there are contradictions.

Quote
So what if she doesn't believe?

nothing really, we were just discussing.

Quote
You do believe. Why do you believe you owe your "soul" to "Allah"?

becuase he created my soul.. no one else did.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #657 - February 13, 2011, 05:57 PM

anyway, i really gotta take a break.

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #658 - February 13, 2011, 06:27 PM

I think it sucks when God doesn't speak your language. :p Sounds fishy to me that the Qu'ran can only be understood an appreciated in Arabic which is only 1 of hundreds of other languages in the world. Also Islam is a young religion compared to Judaism and Christianity which was around thousands of years prior. It seems like God can't make up his mind over which messenger is best . I'm agnostic but I tend to support religions that can encompass everyone equally, not just a select few depending on where they were born and what language they were taught.

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Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
Reply #659 - February 13, 2011, 06:56 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 13, 2011, 05:55 PM
becuase he created my soul.. no one else did.

How do you know you have a such thing as a soul?

"Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
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