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Theme Changer

 Topic: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina

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  • Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     OP - January 01, 2011, 10:57 PM

    Hi all.

    Here's the script for a video I intend to put together tomorrow.  It makes some claims regarding the Arabic language so I'd appreciate it if you guys could look through it and let me know if I have something wrong so that I don't end up wasting my time.

    thanks

    ============

    Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina

    The Quran itself is supposed to be a miracle.  It's very words are supposed to be like magic which had listeners fall to their knees whenever they heard it.  Although as with all other kinds of beauty the beauty of these words is subjective, just like every new father has the most beautiful baby in the world - except for me, who actually did.

    Obviously the idea that everyone who heard the Quran knew it was from God and fell to their knees in awe is mere folklore.  If this had been the case then Muhammad would have had an immediate massive following in Mecca, certainly enough to remove power from the few who apparently knew the beauty of the Quran but deliberately ignored it so that they could remain in charge of the Kaaba, the place where the pagans kept their stone gods.  The Quran corroborates that this phenomenon is mere folklore as it defends itself against accusations from the listeners of being meaningless, vague, and mere poetry.

    21:5 And they said, “Vague meaningless dreams, or he has made it up, or he is a poet. Else, let him present to us a miracle like the earlier (messengers) did.”
    36:69 We did not teach him (Muhammad SAW) poetry. That is beneath him! What it is (the Qur’an), is a reminder and an illuminating open book!
    37:36 They said, “Should we give up our gods for the sake of an obsessed poet?”
    52:30 And they say, “(He is) a poet! Let us wait. An adverse turn of fortune may just do him in!”
    69:41 (Certainly)! it is not the word of a poet. Little do you believe!

    It seems that even the subjective beauty of the Quran lies in the phonetic sound of its words, and not their meaning; so when these words are translated to another language the beauty is lost entirely.  This is a typical sign that the Quran is man made, an entity capable of creating something as objectively amazing as the universe could quite easily make a book with words which are objectively beautiful in all languages.

    For example.  The Quran often talks about men and women having to guard.  In the case of women it is their chastity which needs guarding, but in the case of men it is merely their modesty.  When looking at the wording in Arabic both men and women are told to guard their FARJ.  So, why is it that FARJ for a woman means chastity but for a man it means modesty? 

    In the case of Miriam, the mother of Jesus, guarding her FARJ means that she had not had sex, as being a virgin was one of the properties of Miriam.

    19:20 She (Miriam) said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me
    21:91 And she (Miriam) who guarded her FARJ

    FARJ clearly doesn't mean "modesty" in the case of women when you look at the following verse

    24:31 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their FARJ, AND to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness

    The verse says that they should guard their FARJ *and* to not reveal the sexual parts of their bodies except to members of her immediate family and slaves.  So protecting one's modesty is an additional obligation to guarding one's FARJ rather than the same thing.

    The Arabic to English translators seem to have translated FARJ for women using its natural meaning, but for men translate it to mean "modesty" lest they reveal that the Quran gives permission for men to have sex with their slaves.

    70:29-30 : And those (men) who preserve their chastity - Save with their wives and those whom their right hands possess, for thus they are not blameworthy

    In translating FARJ to mean "modesty" apologists can simply claim that this verse states men need not worry about being naked in front of their slaves, rather than translating consistently which would reveal that men do not need to guard their sexual organs (or chastity) from their wives and slaves.

    But what should one do in order to clarify a verse in the Quran?  Typically you'd go to a scholar, or look up the verse from a credible commenter known as a Tafsir.

    Ibn Kathir: Meaning, they keep their private parts away from that which is forbidden and they prevent their private parts from being put into other than what Allah has allowed them to be in, except from their wives or their right hand possessions (meaning, from their female slaves.)

    Al Jalalayn : and who guard their private parts, against what is unlawful, except from their spouses, that is, to their spouses, and what [slaves] their right hands possess,
    that is, concubines, for then they are not blameworthy, in having sexual intercourse with them.

    This Tafsir not only explicitly says that the Quran gives permission to have sex with slaves, but also reveals that FARJ means "private parts" as it seems to be translated for women and not "modesty" as it appears to have been translated for men.  It seems that the tafsirs from a time when morality differed were more willing to translate the verse using the true meaning of the word, which was that men should not use their testicles for sex with people other than their wives and slaves. 

    Indeed this sentiment is mirrored in verse 4:24

    4:24 And all married women (are forbidden? unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess

    Ibn Kathir: Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (slaves) whom your right hands possess…All others are legal providing you seek them with a dowry

    Al Jalaylan: And, forbidden to you are, wedded women, those with spouses, that you should marry them before they have left their spouses, be they Muslim free women or not; save what your right hands own, of captured [slave] girls, whom you may have sexual intercourse with, even if they should have spouses among the enemy camp, but only after they have been absolved of the possibility of pregnancy [after the completion of one menstrual cycle]

    Asbab Al-Nuzul by Al-Wahidi: Abu Sa‘id al-Khudri who said: “We had captured female prisoners of war on the day of Awtas and because they were already married we disliked having any physical relationship with them. Then we asked the Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace, about them. And the verse (And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess) was then revealed, as a result of which we consider it lawful to have a physical relationship with them”

    Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs: (And all married women (are forbidden unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess) of captives, even if they have husbands in the Abode of War, after ascertaining that they are not pregnant, by waiting for the lapse of one period of menstruation.


    70:30 says men can have sex with their slaves, and 4:24 says that they may also have sex with their concubines even if they are married to a man in an enemy camp.

    Look them up for yourself on www.AlTafsir.com


    The literal translation of the word FARJ is GAP or HOLE.  This is clearly a vulgar way of saying "Guard your vagina" or "Guard your sexual parts".  So much for the beauty of the Quran.  It may have a beautiful poetic prose in Arabic, but when you look at the meaning of the words there is no beauty in telling a woman "Guard your gaps!"

    But that's not all.  Not only is the meaning of the words vulgar, and not only does the Quran say that a man has permission to have sex with his slaves, it like Christianity before it has an unhealthy obsession with Jesus's mother's vagina.

    As with Christianity (and many other religions) pious women's vaginas are like one way streets.  It's only acceptable for things to come out of them, but wrong for things to go in.  Except apparently in the case of Allah.  If we look back at chapter 66 verse 12 knowing the literal meaning of the word FARJ, it changes the meaning of the verse completely from how apologists translate the Arabic into English.

    66:12 And Miriam the daughter of Imran who guarded her chastity, so We berated into it (her body) our spirit

    becomes

    66:12 And Miriam the daughter of Imran who guarded her hole, so we breathed into it our spirit.

    How nice.  Jesus was conceived when Allah literally breathed into Miriam's vagina.

    And thus is the beauty of the Arabic Quran.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #1 - January 02, 2011, 12:39 AM

    So Muslims are supposed to Mind the gap. whistling2


    Anyway,  it looks like it's going to be another good video from you, TheRationalizer.  Afro  Just one thing -- I would prefer if you wrote Mariam instead of Miriam.  Smiley

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #2 - January 02, 2011, 12:50 AM

    Oh dear god....

     وَمَرْيَمَ ٱبْنَتَ عِمْرَانَ ٱلَّتِيۤ أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا فَنَفَخْنَا فِيهِ مِن رُّوحِنَا

    And Mary daughter of Imrān, who preserved (the chastity of) her 'womb' (lol), so We breathed into it of Our Spirit, namely, Gabriel...
  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #3 - January 02, 2011, 12:53 AM

    I thought you were mistaken in your reading of the verse at first, but it does indeed look like that's what it's saying, especially as the meaning of 'farj' is clarified in 70:29 and 23:5, and indeed it's agreed upon by the so-called scholars.

    I just wonder if the author of the Qur'an really meant to say this or if it's just really appalling wording.
  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #4 - January 02, 2011, 02:08 AM

    Oh dear god....



    brilliant   Cheesy

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #5 - January 02, 2011, 10:53 PM

    Updated, removed my use of 4:24 because it is too easy to argue that it is about marriage and not sex.



    The beauty of the Quran, sex with slaves, and Jesus's mom's vagina

    The Quran itself is supposed to be a miracle.  It's very words are supposed to be like magic which had listeners fall to their knees whenever they heard it.  Although as with all other kinds of beauty the beauty of these words is subjective, just like every new father has the most beautiful baby in the world - except for me, who actually does.

    Obviously the idea that everyone who heard the Quran knew it was from God and fell to their knees in awe is mere folklore.  If this had been the case then Muhammad would have had an immediate massive following in Mecca, certainly enough to remove power from the few who apparently knew the beauty of the Quran but deliberately ignored it so that they could remain in charge of the Kaaba, the place where the pagans kept their stone gods.  The Quran corroborates that this phenomenon is mere folklore as it defends itself against accusations from the listeners of being meaningless, vague, and mere poetry.

    (Poetry)
    21:5 And they said, “Vague meaningless dreams, or he has made it up, or he is a poet. Else, let him present to us a miracle like the earlier (messengers) did.”
    36:69 We did not teach him (Muhammad SAW) poetry. That is beneath him! What it is (the Qur’an), is a reminder and an illuminating open book!
    37:36 They said, “Should we give up our gods for the sake of an obsessed poet?”
    52:30 And they say, “(He is) a poet! Let us wait. An adverse turn of fortune may just do him in!”
    69:41 (Certainly)! it is not the word of a poet. Little do you believe!

    It seems that even the subjective beauty of the Quran lies only in the phonetic sound of its words and not their meaning; so when these words are translated to another language the beauty is lost entirely.  This is a typical sign that the Quran is man made, an entity capable of creating something as objectively amazing as the universe could quite easily make a book with words which are objectively beautiful in all languages.

    For example.  The Quran often talks about men and women having to guard.  In the case of women it is their chastity which needs guarding, but in the case of men it is merely their modesty.  When looking at the wording in Arabic both men and women are told to guard their FARJ.  So, why is it that FARJ for a woman means chastity but for a man it means modesty? 

    In the case of Maryam, the mother of Jesus, guarding her FARJ means that she had not had sex, as being a virgin was one of the properties of Maryam.

    19:20 She (Maryam) said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me
    21:91 And she (Maryam) who guarded her FARJ

    FARJ clearly doesn't mean "modesty" in the case of women when you look at the following verse

    24:31 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their FARJ, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness

    The verse says that women should guard their FARJ *and* to not reveal the sexual parts of their bodies except to members of her immediate family and slaves.  So protecting one's modesty is an additional obligation to guarding one's FARJ rather than the same thing.

    The Arabic to English translators seem to have translated FARJ for women using its natural meaning, but for men translate it to mean "modesty" lest they reveal that the Quran gives permission for men to have sex with their slaves.

    70:29-30 : And those (men) who preserve their chastity - Save with their wives and those whom their right hands possess, for thus they are not blameworthy

    In translating FARJ to mean "modesty" apologists can simply claim that this verse states men need not worry about being naked in front of their slaves, rather than translating consistently which would reveal that men do not need to guard their sexual organs (or chastity) from their wives and slaves.

    The literal translation of the word FARJ is Vagina, Bump, or Relief.  For men these verses are telling them to guard their sexual relief.  For women however  "Guard your vagina" is merely a crude way of saying "don't be promiscuous".  So much for the beauty of the Quran.  It may have a beautiful poetic prose in Arabic, but when you look at the meaning of the words there is no beauty in telling a woman "Mind your vag".

    I'll put the Arabic word in the description so that you can check it for yourself.  Make sure there are no children around though if you choose to do a web search, especially an image search.

    But what should one do in order to clarify a verse in the Quran?  Typically you'd go to a scholar, or look up the verse from a credible commenter known as a Tafsir.

    Ibn Kathir: Meaning, they keep their private parts away from that which is forbidden and they prevent their private parts from being put into other than what Allah has allowed them to be in, except from their wives or their right hand possessions (meaning, from their female slaves.)

    Al Jalalayn : and who guard their private parts, against what is unlawful, except from their spouses, that is, to their spouses, and what [slaves] their right hands possess, that is, concubines, for then they are not blameworthy, in having sexual intercourse with them.

    This Tafsir not only explicitly says that the Quran gives permission to have sex with slaves, but also reveals that FARJ means "private parts" as it seems to be translated for women and not "modesty" as it appears to have been translated for men.  It seems that the tafsirs from a time when morality differed were more willing to translate the verse using the true meaning of the word, which was that men should not use their testicles for sex with people other than their wives and slaves. 

    Chapter 23 verse 5 corroborates this view

    23:5 And those who guard their FARJ - Except from their wives or (slaves) that their right hands possess, - for then, they are free from blame;

    Ibn Kathir: means, those who protect their private parts from unlawful actions and do not do that which Allah has forbidden; fornication and homosexuality, and do not approach anyone except the wives whom Allah has made permissible for them or their right hand possessions from the captives. One who seeks what Allah has made permissible for him is not to be blamed and there is no sin on him.

    Al Jalalayn: that is, to their spouses, and what [slaves] their right hands possess,
    that is, concubines, for then they are not blameworthy, in having sexual intercourse with them

    Not only is the meaning of the words "guard your vagina" somewhat unrefined, and not only does the Quran say that a man has permission to have sex with his slaves, it like Christianity before it has an unhealthy obsession with Jesus's mother's vagina.

    As with Christianity (and many other religions) pious women's vaginas are like one way streets.  It's only acceptable for things to come out of them, but wrong for things to go in.  Except apparently in the case of Allah.  If we look back at chapter 66 verse 12 knowing the literal meaning of the word FARJ, it changes the meaning of the verse completely from how apologists translate the Arabic into English.

    66:12 And Maryam the daughter of Imran who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into it (her body) our spirit

    Now becomes

    66:12 And Maryam the daughter of Imran who guarded her vagina, so We breathed into it our spirit.

    Or if we look again to Ibn Kathir it wasn't Allah who directly blew up Maryams vagina, it seems that Allah may have used the angel Gabriel as some kind of celestial Turkey baster.

    Ibn Kathir: "And We breathed into it (private part) through Our Ruh," - Allah sent the angel Jibril to Maryam, and he came to her in the shape of a man in every respect. Allah commanded him to blow into a gap of her garment and that breath went into her womb through her private part (vagina); this is how `Isa (Jesus) was conceived.


    How nice.  Jesus was conceived when Allah decided to treat her vagina as a blow hole.

    And thus is the beauty of the Arabic Quran.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #6 - January 02, 2011, 10:54 PM

    Oh, and changed Miriam to Mariam Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #7 - January 02, 2011, 10:57 PM

    Great stuff R-Man.

    Burqa-Islam equates all of a woman with her genitals as she is equally liable to arouse man by showing her arms or hands or face or any skin.

    So Burqa-Islam just reduces women to a walking, breathing, talking, seeing vagina, labia and clitoris.

    Thats all women are.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #8 - January 03, 2011, 03:55 AM

    Muhammed was definitely a pervert.

    Great article.
  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #9 - January 03, 2011, 07:09 AM

    unless they are trying to be politically correct, i doubt any credible scholar would deny that men are allowed to have sex with their slaves. it's mentioned all over the place.

    one hadith in particular that i remember off the top of my head from bukhari is about a companion asking if he is allowed to 'pull out' when having sex with his slave, so that he doesn't get her pregnant, and the prophet says he is, but it's preferable not to.

    can't remember the exact hadith/ page number etc. but i was reading it from a copy of sahih bukhari (i'm 90% sure, if it wasn't sahih bukhari, then it was sahih muslim, this was ages ago. but those were the two sets of books i had available at the time so it's definitely one or the other)

    dunno if you want to find it and include it or not.
  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #10 - January 03, 2011, 07:25 AM

    Great stuff R-Man.

    Burqa-Islam equates all of a woman with her genitals as she is equally liable to arouse man by showing her arms or hands or face or any skin.

    So Burqa-Islam just reduces women to a walking, breathing, talking, seeing vagina, labia and clitoris.

    Thats all women are.




    All this is sooooooooooooooooo liberating! All crazy feminists need to be converted to this great religion that champions women's rights, Mashallah!!



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #11 - January 03, 2011, 08:24 AM

    Rash, politically correct and factually correct would be to consistently translate faraj as "chastity". I think they do it because they think 70:29-30 are a bit of a sensitive issue.

    I might rebut the common apology about phasing out slavery slowly for financial reasons,  probably in another video though.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #12 - January 03, 2011, 09:02 AM

    Islamically, it is allowed for a man to have sex with his female slave. what i meant by trying to be politically correct is that some scholars may try to hide this to make islam look better, despite knowing it is true.

    i'm don't know that much arabic, so i can't comment on the correct translation of farj, but from other accounts where having sex with slaves is more explicitly mentioned (the hadith i mentioned earlier, as well as rules for concubines in times of war etc.), it is clear that it was acceptable to the prophet, and so acceptable in islam.
  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #13 - January 03, 2011, 09:48 AM

    I'm thinking of ending it with something like this, what do you think?

    Title at start : "Allah sends the angel Gabriel to Maryam so that she may conceive Jesus"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRmCG08ix2M

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #14 - January 03, 2011, 11:11 AM

    one hadith in particular that i remember off the top of my head from bukhari is about a companion asking if he is allowed to 'pull out' when having sex with his slave, so that he doesn't get her pregnant, and the prophet says he is, but it's preferable not to.


    You mean these?

    Volume 9, Book 93, Number 506:

    Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

    That during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (Muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relation with them without impregnating them. So they asked the Prophet about coitus interrupt us. The Prophet said, "It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection." Qaza'a said, "I heard Abu Sa'id saying that the Prophet said, 'No soul is ordained to be created but Allah will create it."


    Volume 3, Book 46, Number 718:

    Narrated Ibn Muhairiz:

    I saw Abu Said and asked him about coitus interruptus. Abu Said said, "We went with Allah's Apostle, in the Ghazwa of Barli Al-Mustaliq and we captured some of the 'Arabs as captives, and the long separation from our wives was pressing us hard and we wanted to practice coitus interruptus. We asked Allah's Apostle (whether it was permissible). He said, "It is better for you not to do so. No soul, (that which Allah has) destined to exist, up to the Day of Resurrection, but will definitely come, into existence."


    Volume 3, Book 34, Number 432:

    Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

    that while he was sitting with Allah's Apostle he said, "O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interrupt us?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.
  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #15 - January 25, 2011, 11:41 PM

    You mean these?

    Volume 9, Book 93, Number 506:

    Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

    That during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (Muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relation with them without impregnating them. So they asked the Prophet about coitus interrupt us. The Prophet said, "It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection." Qaza'a said, "I heard Abu Sa'id saying that the Prophet said, 'No soul is ordained to be created but Allah will create it."


    Volume 3, Book 46, Number 718:

    Narrated Ibn Muhairiz:

    I saw Abu Said and asked him about coitus interruptus. Abu Said said, "We went with Allah's Apostle, in the Ghazwa of Barli Al-Mustaliq and we captured some of the 'Arabs as captives, and the long separation from our wives was pressing us hard and we wanted to practice coitus interruptus. We asked Allah's Apostle (whether it was permissible). He said, "It is better for you not to do so. No soul, (that which Allah has) destined to exist, up to the Day of Resurrection, but will definitely come, into existence."


    Volume 3, Book 34, Number 432:

    Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

    that while he was sitting with Allah's Apostle he said, "O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interrupt us?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.


    yep those are the ones. since he said 'its better not to' i took that as coitus interruptus is allowed but preferable not to, but that's beside the point. the fact he didn't say anything about the act of sex with slaves in the first place shows that it's allowed in islam.
  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #16 - January 26, 2011, 09:47 AM

    Sex with slaves IS expressly permitted in Islam. You don't even need to go any further than the Quran, but reading the Tafsirs makes it completely clear.

    23:5-6
    Quote from: IbnKathir
    means, those who protect their private parts from
    unlawful actions and do not do that which Allah
    has forbidden; fornication and homosexuality,
    and do not approach anyone except the wives
    whom Allah has made permissible for them or
    their right hand possessions from the captives
    .


    Quote from: Jalalayn
    except from their spouses, that is, to their spouses, and what [slaves] their right hands possess, that is, concubines, for then they are not blameworthy, in having sexual intercourse with them.


    70:29-30
    Quote from: IbnKathir
    Except from their wives or their right hand possessions,
    meaning, from their female slaves.


    Quote from: Jalalayn
    except from their wives and those whom their right hands own, in the way of slavegirls, for in that case they are not blameworthy;


    4:24 - Although to me this looks as though the Quran is talking about permission to marry slaves even if they are married to your enemy, the Tafsirs use hadiths to conclude it is also giving permission to have sex with slaves even if they are married to your enemy.

    Quote from: IbnKathir
    The  Ayah means, you are prohibited from
    marrying women who are already married,
    (except those whom your right hands
    possess) except those whom you acquire through
    war, for you are allowed such women after
    making sure they are not pregnant.

    Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri said,
    "We captured some women from the area of
    Awtas who were already married, and we disliked
    having sexual relations with them because they
    already had husbands. So, we asked the Prophet
    about this matter, and this  Ayah was revealed,
    (Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those whom
    your right hands possess). Consequently, we had
    sexual relations with these women.''


    Quote from: Jalalayn
    And, forbidden to you are, wedded women, those with spouses, that you should marry them before they have left their spouses, be they Muslim free women or not; save what your right hands own, of captured [slave] girls, whom you may have sexual intercourse with, even if they should have spouses among the enemy camp, but only after they have been absolved of the possibility of pregnancy [after the completion of one menstrual cycle]



    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #17 - January 26, 2011, 10:31 AM

    The actual Qur'anic verses on the subject are pretty vague though, at least, they're vague enough to be interpreted differently. I think it's the ahadith themselves that make this permissibility incontrovertibly clear. Here's how the so-called Reformer, Muhammad Asad, interprets them:

    * v.6 : Lit., “or those whom their right hands possess” (aw mā malakat aymānuhum). Most of the commentators assume unquestioningly that this relates to female slaves, and that the particle aw (“or”) denotes a permissible alternative. This conventional interpretation is, in my opinion, inadmissible inasmuch as it is based on the assumption that sexual intercourse with one’s female slave is permitted without marriage: an assumption which is contradicted by the Qur’ān itself (see 4:3, 24, 25, and 24:32, with the corresponding notes). Nor is this the only objection to the above-mentioned interpretation. Since the Qur’ān applies the term “believers” to men and women alike, and since the term azwāj (“spouses”), too, denotes both the male and the female partners in marriage, there is no reason for attributing to the phrase mā malakat aymānuhum the meaning of “their female slaves”; and since, on the other hand, it is out of the question that female and male slaves could have been referred to here, it is obvious that this phrase does not relate to slaves at all, but has the same meaning as in 4:24 – namely, “those whom they rightfully possess through wedlock” (see note 26 on 4:24) – with the significant difference that in the present context this expression relates to both husbands and wives, who “rightfully possess” one another by virtue of marriage. On the basis of this interpretation, the particle aw which precedes this clause does not denote an alternative (“or”) but is, rather, in the nature of an explanatory amplification, more or less analogous to the phrase “in other words” or “that is,” thus giving to the whole sentence the meaning, “...save with their spouses – that is, those whom they rightfully possess [through wedlock]...,” etc. (Cf. a similar construction in 25:62 – “for him who has the will to take thought – that is [lit., “or”], has the will to be grateful.”)

    All very well and good, but entirely questionable given the pertinent ahadith, as well as the theological (and therefore, legal) significance of consensus amongst the jurists.
  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #18 - January 26, 2011, 11:38 AM

    Sura 4 is all about who you can marry, not who you can have sex with.

    The important thing to note though is that if these verses are saying you can only have sex with your wifes then "wives" includes slaves you have married, the "or your slaves" parts would then be superfluous and therefore the Quran is imperfect.

    Decision time, complete this sentence.  The Quran....
    A: Is imperfect
    B: Condones sex with slaves


    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #19 - January 26, 2011, 11:46 AM

    Quote
    Sura 4 is all about who you can marry, not who you can have sex with.


    Yup.

    Quote
    The important thing to note though is that if these verses are saying you can only have sex with your wifes then "wives" includes slaves you have married, the "or your slaves" parts would then be superfluous and therefore the Quran is imperfect.


    Not only superfluous, but positively misleading, making the reader believe that it is lawful to have sex with other than one's spouse(s). Surely God would not leave ambiguity in a matter with such legal significance? And yet, 'reformers' like this guy have to believe that God is so positively inept in writing that he actually gets people to believe the exact opposite of what he intends.

  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #20 - January 26, 2011, 12:04 PM

    All religion mutates to fit into society (unless they are a theocracy and can dictate morality.)  The Quran is no different.  Some Christians like my friend in the USA think that parts of the Bible are man made and can be ignored (which in my opinion makes the whole book useless).  Muslims can't do this, so they do what a lot of Christians do, they change their perception of the meaning of it.

    Sex with slaves, moral at the time but immoral now because slavery is no longer practised.  However this means that if there were to be another war and the Muslims were to experience a victory then they could once again take my wife and daughters and use them as concubines - even if they were opposed to the war and tried desperately to convince me not to participate in it.

    I am certain that EVERY Muslim knows at least in part that at least some of what they believe is BS, but instead of taking that to the natural conclusion "If some of it is BS then it is unreliable" they simply suppress it.  ALL religious believers have doubts, whereas I can honestly say that I never have a single doubt about religion.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #21 - January 26, 2011, 04:40 PM

    I have had some bizarre conversations with Muslims about this and they have tried to convince me that the sex that took place between these Muslims and their slaves girls was consensual and not rape. Obviously they are forced into arguing for this because otherwise they would have to concede that Muhammad was a rapist.

    Interestingly, I am also told by such Muslims that consensual sex is a modern European innovation and traditionally blokes juts had their way with women without really seeking permission. I find that quite difficult to believe somehow.

    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #22 - January 26, 2011, 04:58 PM

    I am sure both of those arguments happened in different sittings with different people. Bring both of them on the same table and ask again.. Cheesy

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
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  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #23 - January 26, 2011, 07:20 PM

    Decision time, complete this sentence.  The Quran....
    A: Is imperfect
    B: Condones sex with slaves

    C: Phone-a-Mullah / learn to speak Arabic first

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #24 - January 26, 2011, 07:22 PM

    I am certain that EVERY Muslim knows at least in part that at least some of what they believe is BS, but instead of taking that to the natural conclusion "If some of it is BS then it is unreliable" they simply suppress it.  ALL religious believers have doubts, whereas I can honestly say that I never have a single doubt about religion.

    Agreed - also most realise a lot of the wording his hyperbole. 

    The thing is imagine if you really, truly believed this was a book from God.  Then surely most Muslims would at least read it once in a language they understand?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #25 - January 26, 2011, 10:04 PM

    Some Christians like my friend in the USA think that parts of the Bible are man made and can be ignored (which in my opinion makes the whole book useless).

    Actually, the more you take away from the bible the better it becomes.  grin12

    Interestingly, I am also told by such Muslims that consensual sex is a modern European innovation and traditionally blokes juts had their way with women without really seeking permission. I find that quite difficult to believe somehow.

    I find it difficult to beleive that anybody uttering such a load of crap is smart enough to even breathe let alone put his pants on when he gets up in the morning.
    Why don't you ask them to test and verify such an assumption. You guys could for example travel to a non-European society - lets say KSA or Afghanistan where European customs haven't been implemented yet and your friends could demonstrate such a practice IRL. You could even put a wager on it and possibly earn some cash. Or are they saying that Europeans managed to brainwash everybody into this non-traditional horrible thing called "consensual sex"?
  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #26 - January 26, 2011, 10:10 PM

    http://www.amazon.com/Jefferson-Bible-Thomas/dp/0807077143

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #27 - January 26, 2011, 10:11 PM

    I have had some bizarre conversations with Muslims about this and they have tried to convince me that the sex that took place between these Muslims and their slaves girls was consensual and not rape. Obviously they are forced into arguing for this because otherwise they would have to concede that Muhammad was a rapist.

    Interestingly, I am also told by such Muslims that consensual sex is a modern European innovation and traditionally blokes juts had their way with women without really seeking permission. I find that quite difficult to believe somehow.


    Feminism is the radical idea that women are people too. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #28 - January 26, 2011, 10:12 PM

    A Muslim on YouTube just told me that the victorious Muslims were forced by Allah to take those women as slaves so they wouldn't starve, and obviously they had to have sex with them to stop them from resorting to lesbianism.

    Wow.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Sex with slaves, the beauty of the Quran, and Jesus's mom's vagina
     Reply #29 - January 27, 2011, 12:00 AM

     Cheesy

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
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