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 Topic: The first cause argument

 (Read 5568 times)
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  • The first cause argument
     OP - January 02, 2011, 03:14 AM

    I am not sure that have this topic been discussed here before (I tried archive search) but I sure hope to find some input from my fav. forum members on this one.

    Those who are unfamiliar with the argument can find it here (apart from googling it of-course)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument

    well although it is a very vast topic but as the argument on its own has its basis as an outcome of human limitation to understand infinity. And just alike I just cannot stop myself from thinking about this stupid concept so HELP


    PS: admins if the topic exist already feel free to guide me to relevant thread Tongue

    "Religion is the purposeful suspension of critical thinking" Bill Maher
  • Re: The first cause argument
     Reply #1 - January 02, 2011, 03:33 AM

    So what do you want to know exactly?
  • Re: The first cause argument
     Reply #2 - January 02, 2011, 03:48 AM

    anything really will be a great help actually but right now for instance three points

    A) Right now I am really not sure how can we approach from one whole no. i.e. 1 to another whole no. 2 as there is a vast (infinite) gap of fractions between those nos. and this in effect is making me think that the have we even been able to grasp the basics of mathematics.

    B) The argument itself states that there have to be a start point and in this case the prime mover i.e. GOD that brings us to the same old ironical question of the start point of prime mover (I came across a long time ago a theory called Lazim-ul wajood for GOD and this one pretty much looks the same but have mathematical aspect to it)

    c) The argument potentially ties universe to a finite state (for the sake of argument I believe) and I take it that, elevates god to an infinity status i.e infinitely infinite.

    If I am not making any sense forgive me, cos that's the only reason why I am here

    "Religion is the purposeful suspension of critical thinking" Bill Maher
  • Re: The first cause argument
     Reply #3 - January 02, 2011, 06:32 AM

    first off, the deceptive simplicity of the cosmological argument(in its kalam form, not the more traditional(read: aristotelian/aquinas) forms) is due to the many assumptions it makes.  first off, it must assume that the nature of time is a-theoretic, i.e. that every present moment is uniquely existent and that time could be considered to be a linear progression of cause to effect.

    it then states that its first premise(everything that begins to exist has a cause) is true due to self evidency. we began to exist via our mommy and daddy fucking etc. the problem is that, in a nutshell, this depends on how you define a 'thing'. a 'thing' is really just an abstraction used to describe arrangements of matter, and that premise's truth with respect to the physical matter itself is actually not so self-evident, and we don't actually know yet.

    the second premise, 'the universe began to exist' is not necessarily true. usually the big bang theory(or some sort of causal argument related to the issue of time that i briefly talked about above) is invoked to justify this, and humanity's agnosticism to the origins of energy can also apply to the question of the universe(matter's equivalent to energy).

    this is a really fucking brief overlook but i'm headbanging to infected mushroom - heavyweight so fuck.

    btw:

    Quote
    anything really will be a great help actually but right now for instance three points

    A) Right now I am really not sure how can we approach from one whole no. i.e. 1 to another whole no. 2 as there is a vast (infinite) gap of fractions between those nos. and this in effect is making me think that the have we even been able to grasp the basics of mathematics.


    ok fuck i can talk for ages about this but this is really a rephrasing of xeno's paradoxes. go read on them, it's a really interesting topic. though mathematically it's quite easy to deal with this, and i'll briefly explain:

    let's say you want to go from point A to B, and the distance between point A and B is 1 unit. as you get closer, you halve the distances accordingly(so you'll move half a unit, then half a unit plus half of the half unit etc.). you can model this as the sum to infinity of the sequence 1/2^n, where n is a positive real number. i cba to explain but the value of that is 1, and it mathematically holds true that you can go from point A to B, whether there is a continuum of infinite points between them or not.

    Quote
    B) The argument itself states that there have to be a start point and in this case the prime mover i.e. GOD that brings us to the same old ironical question of the start point of prime mover (I came across a long time ago a theory called Lazim-ul wajood for GOD and this one pretty much looks the same but have mathematical aspect to it

    c) The argument potentially ties universe to a finite state (for the sake of argument I believe) and I take it that, elevates god to an infinity status i.e infinitely infinite.

    If I am not making any sense forgive me, cos that's the only reason why I am here


    i suppose c) would be true. though i'm sure somebody's tried to make it work regardless of the infinitude of the universe(or lack of).

    sorry this is a bad post but meh
  • Re: The first cause argument
     Reply #4 - January 02, 2011, 09:13 PM

    Quote
    ok fuck i can talk for ages about this but this is really a rephrasing of xeno's paradoxes. go read on them, it's a really interesting topic. though mathematically it's quite easy to deal with this, and i'll briefly explain:

    let's say you want to go from point A to B, and the distance between point A and B is 1 unit. as you get closer, you halve the distances accordingly(so you'll move half a unit, then half a unit plus half of the half unit etc.). you can model this as the sum to infinity of the sequence 1/2^n, where n is a positive real number. i cba to explain but the value of that is 1, and it mathematically holds true that you can go from point A to B, whether there is a continuum of infinite points between them or not.


    The difference is, from what I heard, this deals with a finite set while an actual causal infinite will not have a set of points. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: The first cause argument
     Reply #5 - January 02, 2011, 09:24 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD9MtIma5YU
  • Re: The first cause argument
     Reply #6 - January 02, 2011, 09:27 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmeZ_BAWAhQ
  • Re: The first cause argument
     Reply #7 - January 02, 2011, 09:30 PM

    And this video - has nothing to do with the topic but it's may fav vid of his:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvRPbsXBVBo
  • Re: The first cause argument
     Reply #8 - January 02, 2011, 10:20 PM

    I wish we had someone with real charisma do a video like that on Islam from COEM  Cry

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  • Re: The first cause argument
     Reply #9 - January 02, 2011, 10:44 PM

    Even if there is no objective "beginning", this does not eliminate a creator tout court. The universe is still here and still can require an explanation for its being here regardless of whether or not that explanation conforms to our human perception of time and causal relationships.

    On a side note, I find it interesting how many "rational thinkers" find the idea of god as an explanation for the universe absurd and yet enthusiastically accept such ideas as a "multiverse" where it is theoretically impossible to have any causal relationship between universes and so cannot confirm or deny the hypothesis. One would be forgiven for asking why it is that the bedrock of all so called inductive scientific rational thinking is thrown aside for an abstract deus ex machina. Perhaps the aversion to transcendent explanations has stretched so far that it has now morphed into a dogma, a literal truth that must be preserved even when the first tenet of "rationality" is undermined.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: The first cause argument
     Reply #10 - January 03, 2011, 01:27 AM

    The difference is, from what I heard, this deals with a finite set while an actual causal infinite will not have a set of points. 



    this really doesn't have much to do with set theory. the sum to infinity that we can model this particular example on is merely an infinite series, or rather a sum of an infinite sequence of numbers. it's not a finite set at all, if anything, the sequence is an infinite set of fractions of the form 1/2^n where n is a positive real number equal to or more than 1(i didn't state that explicitly in my post, i should have but i was really tired). i suppose the set could be constructed like this:

    X = { x is an element of X | x = 1/2^n, n >= 1 }

    so the cardinality(or size) of the set would infact be infinite, or rather equal to the cardinality of the set of the natural numbers(1, 2, 3, 4).

    not sure where you got the idea that my 'solution' to xeno's paradox didn't deal with 'actual causal infinites'.


    also yeah z10, i'm not sure why the idea of a multiverse is so accepted to the point it's used by some atheists(richard carrier for example) in debates with theists. it's merely a hypothesis in the same sense god is a hypothesis.
  • Re: The first cause argument
     Reply #11 - January 03, 2011, 03:04 AM

    this is really a rephrasing of xeno's paradoxes. go read on them, it's a really interesting topic. though mathematically it's quite easy to deal with this, and i'll briefly explain:

    let's say you want to go from point A to B, and the distance between point A and B is 1 unit.

    The difference is, from what I heard, this deals with a finite set while an actual causal infinite will not have a set of points. 


    Again my apologies if I do not make sense, as my maths is limited to algebraic theorems and stuff, but thanks you guys are helping, I am familiar with this paradox of xeno but what Is confusing me is this

    Quote
    Uncountable Aleph-One's
    What, though, of those infinity of numbers in between two integers, such as 0 and 1? After all, with just a bit of rational thought, it becomes clear that in between these two numbers possesses an infinite set of other numbers (0.01, 0.114, 0.00000456, 0.32432423423344, etc...).

    While these numbers are also infinite, they are considered by mathematicians to possess a higher degree of infinity (aleph-one), as they are uncountable (because in between any two of them, there is always an infinite number of others), and cannot be counted one to one with any infinite set.

    Can one possibly say, then, that the number of aleph-one numbers are greater than aleph-null numbers? Not exactly. They are both infinity. One can be considered greater than the other, however, and that is what makes this idea of cardinality of infinite sets so mathematically interesting.

    The cardinality of infinities does noe end here, of course. This is just one example of a conclusion that might be drawn from this idea. It should be able, at the very least, to allow one to realize that perhaps not all infinities are equal, and that mathematicians have their work cut out for them in making sense of these things.
    Read more at Suite101: Degrees of Infinity: The Inequality of Endless Sets http://www.suite101.com/content/degrees-of-infinity-a48863#ixzz19w91MSXI



    A Little clarification here I am not trying to be an Apologist for God, god to me is a theory which is neither proved or unproven just like evolution and big bang but unlike evolution and big bang (both have a lot of evidence for them) Theory of God only have some mind tiring and mind bending arguments to support it no evidence. Any organised religion to me is not even a theory an absurd, obsolete peck of ancient gibber gabber.

    After this clarification the reason for this argument was the problem with conceiving that universe never started to exist coz there lies an infinity, And I just can not get my head around it sort of stuck here as I see infinity every where. I can conceive a point but as soon as I conceive another point the infinity bitch kicks in and is not letting me conceive the first dimension let alone the 3rd or even the eleventh, Although I am sure I live in definitely at-least in a three dimensional world
    I wish we had someone with real charisma do a video like that on Islam from COEM  Cry

    I am not assure about the chrisma but I can try  Smiley

    "Religion is the purposeful suspension of critical thinking" Bill Maher
  • Re: The first cause argument
     Reply #12 - January 03, 2011, 03:18 AM

    With regards to the the 'cosmological argument' vs. the multiverse theory, I found the below interview with Steven Weinberg interesting and his points reasonable.  He says that it's difficult for physicists to be sure at this point as to whether physical constants really are fine tuned to such an extent that they must have been either intelligently assigned or a multiverse exists where different constants occur in each universe. 

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edsDrqfDVKY

    Also, several months back, I came across this paper which challenges our seemingly universal acceptance of a 'fine-tuned' universe.

    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: The first cause argument
     Reply #13 - January 03, 2011, 04:57 AM

    this really doesn't have much to do with set theory. the sum to infinity that we can model this particular example on is merely an infinite series, or rather a sum of an infinite sequence of numbers. it's not a finite set at all, if anything, the sequence is an infinite set of fractions of the form 1/2^n where n is a positive real number equal to or more than 1(i didn't state that explicitly in my post, i should have but i was really tired). i suppose the set could be constructed like this:

    X = { x is an element of X | x = 1/2^n, n >= 1 }

    so the cardinality(or size) of the set would infact be infinite, or rather equal to the cardinality of the set of the natural numbers(1, 2, 3, 4).

    not sure where you got the idea that my 'solution' to xeno's paradox didn't deal with 'actual causal infinites'.


    also yeah z10, i'm not sure why the idea of a multiverse is so accepted to the point it's used by some atheists(richard carrier for example) in debates with theists. it's merely a hypothesis in the same sense god is a hypothesis.

    I didn't.  I am not too clear on set theory but in other forums I had heard various issues punted around about the absurdities created by infinites etc so I thought I would toss something out, and let those who know more sort things out. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: The first cause argument
     Reply #14 - January 03, 2011, 07:20 AM

    sorry if i'm mistaking this for something else, sine you seem to have started to talk about infinite set theory. if you don't mean the argument that god started everything off and the ensuing question of what created god, then ignore this post.

    isn't the whole point of god that he is above the universe and doesn't have to obey the universe's laws (i.e. the laws of physics) since he is the one to create them, and so would not need to follow the rules of cause and effect among other things?

  • Re: The first cause argument
     Reply #15 - January 03, 2011, 07:50 AM

    must have been either intelligently assigned or a multiverse exists where different constants occur in each universe.  



    I do not think it is necessary to go so far. We cannot yet say that whatever it is, it is "intelligent", all we are saying is that the multiverse theory is wrong, the right answer doesn't have to be the same boring god of religion.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: The first cause argument
     Reply #16 - January 03, 2011, 09:35 AM

    isn't the whole point of god that he is above the universe and doesn't have to obey the universe's laws (i.e. the laws of physics) since he is the one to create them, and so would not need to follow the rules of cause and effect among other things?


    It is indeed! The idea of God is outside laws and reason and rational argument.

    The problem is that the cosmological/kalam argument attempts to claim that the existence of such a being is proven by using reason and rational argument.

    It is of course not.

    At best it only points to a gap in our knowledge and then conjecture that:

    "a Supernatural Being did it!"

    I am Agnostic and so I do not completely dismiss the idea that there may well be a God/Cosmic force that is beyond all that we know and understand.

    But the difference between that and what many theists do is that they are basically saying "Look no further - God did it!" They claim that their inability to understand proves there is a God. It is the end of the line for them.

    For me - and what is the scientific position - this is not the end of the matter - but merely the admission we don't know and the beginning of attempts to answer that question.

    Whether we can ever answer it or not is neither here nor there. But it is the admission that we have a gap (many gaps) in our knowledge and as yet insufficient information or ability to find a solution without having to plug it with a "Miracle!"

  • Re: The first cause argument
     Reply #17 - January 25, 2011, 11:33 PM

    that's pretty much the stance i follow. there COULD be a god/ cosmological being/ whatever you want to call it (most likely a non-interfering one) but is likely to be very hard to prove and impossible to disprove. for me, whether such a being exists or not doesn't really change how i would act in day to day life so i don't bother with it until someone manages to prove it. it's just something that would be nice to know.

    but it annoys me when people (e.g. dawkins) say 'there obviously isn't a first mover because that would just raise the question of what caused the first mover'. just because something raises another question, doesn't mean it is unable to answer the original question.

    if the observable universe indicates (from current knowledge that i don't know about yet or future research) that it would have to have been caused by an outside influence, then that is where the first mover argument becomes necessary. just because our observable universe needed an outside influence to cause it, doesn't necissarily mean that the outside cause also needed an outside cause.

    I don't think we have enough information to conclude that there needs to be an outside influence to create our universe YET, but that doesn't mean new information can't come up in the future that does point to this.
  • Re: The first cause argument
     Reply #18 - January 26, 2011, 12:03 AM

    Quote
    but it annoys me when people (e.g. dawkins) say 'there obviously isn't a first mover because that would just raise the question of what caused the first mover'. just because something raises another question, doesn't mean it is unable to answer the original question.


    It does mean that the "uncreated" God is not the only possible explanation, which I think is what they are getting at.  Most theists use special pleading here to say that their version of this first mover couldn't have a cause ............because that would be absurd or something that that.  It could be very well possible that if there were a God of this universe he himself or herself may have been created as well.  If think if you ask Dawkins or any other theist this they very well may conceed it, with the caveat that we simply don't know, which is not something you'll get from a theist. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: The first cause argument
     Reply #19 - January 26, 2011, 02:23 AM

    the first mover does not have to be an intelligent being... If there is a first mover, it can as well be a mathematical/physical formula ... what lies beyond the first mover will probably be a mystery till the "end of time" since we are not capable of thinking/explaining something which is outside our state of existence (time-space)... Even the other dimensions which are mathematically proven, are part of the universe and not some "outer plain of existence as in out of the universe plain of existence"....



    Just look at the sun and the moon, rotating around the earth perfectly! Out of all the never ending space in the universe, the sun and moon ended up close to earth rotating around it perfectly.!!

  • Re: The first cause argument
     Reply #20 - January 27, 2011, 02:00 AM

    1. The First Cause Argument is retarded.
    2. Retards use retarded arguments.
    3. Therefore, those who use the First Cause Argument are retarded.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: The first cause argument
     Reply #21 - January 27, 2011, 11:24 AM

    This first cause-esque argument was presented to me by some Muslims on another forum:

    http://www.deoband.org/2010/03/aqida/allah-and-his-attributes/clearest-rational-argument-for-the-existence-of-a-creator/

    It seems impressive, but it has some serious drawbacks, not least of which are the sneaking in of a personal agent into the argument with outright false statements like this:

    Quote
    Whenever any contingent being [or attribute, act, event] leaves the realm of non-existence and becomes existent [such as the movement of my hand, subsequent to it being stationary in my lap] , it will necessarily need to be on account of some external cause preferring its existence over its non-existence.


    Note also the bizarre structure of the argument itself:

    Quote
    Premise 1: [I lift my hand in real life, point to it and say,] This particular movement of my hand is something which began to exist.

    Premise 2: Whatever begins to exist must have a cause.

    Premise 3: Therefore, this particular movement of my hand must have a cause.

    Premise 4: This cause will either be A: contingently existent [along with what that entails], or B: necessarily existent [along with what that entails]. There is no third possibility.

    Premise 5: This cause is not a contingently existing cause.

    Conclusion: Therefore, by rational necessity, it must have been a necessarily existent Being who created the movement of my hand [along with all of what this entails].


    See that all of the premises mention a 'cause' and nothing else, but the conclusion itself mentions 'a Being who' created the universe. An invalid argument from the start?
  • Re: The first cause argument
     Reply #22 - January 27, 2011, 12:00 PM

    I don't even understand how the cosmological argument still has mileage. No matter how much they tart it up, it still fails the exact same way it always has.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: The first cause argument
     Reply #23 - January 27, 2011, 01:05 PM

    Exactly. Just like creationists using 'the watchmaker' argument for intelligent design.
    Thinking they're about to smash your atheism into smithereens, when in reality you just have to explain to them the basics of evolution.
    Really, really sad.

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