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 Topic: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?

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  • defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     OP - January 02, 2011, 01:36 PM
    hello everyone!

    I'll try to keep it short and not bore you to death Smiley I found the forum through KafirGirl blog (anyone has any idea if she's okay?). what an amazing place this is! i'm so happy I found it Smiley

    I'll cut to the chase. I'm a non-muslim girl, brought up catholic. I'm 100% agnostic now, leaning strongly towards atheism. I was in a stormy relationship with a muslim guy. I'm 25 and he is 23 if that matters to anyone Smiley

    he is iraqi but spent fair share of his life in saudi, where he now lives. He lived in UK for 5 years and you'd think he is fairly westernized but I don't think so anymore.
    Our relationship was secret from his friends because as he said: i would get nasty looks. Obviously what he was doing was against his religion.
    But soon he confessed he loved me and he would want me to become his wife but... i need to convert (at least he was honest!).
    First, I told him to go to hell but then emotions won. I started my quest for understanding Islam and to see whether I could actually convert. And there was a point in my life that I actually thought I could become a Muslim *sigh*. I think what drew me most was how peaceful they looked! At least those ladies I met. I was craving peace of mind and some kind of static point I can always refer to... I don't know, what I was thinking. Needless to say that I'd get to be with the guy I fell in love with, quite an added value Smiley

    So I started digging and it's easy to find a lot of sites debunking Islam. Later I started reading the Quran and commentaries. Emailed Muslim women to tell me what they think about polygamy, wife-beating, hijab, 'uncomfortable' hadiths and verses from the Quran. These were all convert women or married to muslims for a long time and living in the Middle East (he wanted us to live in kuwait).
    I also confronted him about these issues and got one of two responses:
    1) glossy image and explanation available on islamic sites
    2) i heard that i'm full of hate and ignorant and just 'don't want to see the truth and beauty of islam'.
    He thinks that quran is PERFECT. there are no contradictions, it's pure and it teaches love, compassion, kindness and elevates women (!). Well, i don't agree.
    Any argument about religion with him would end in a massive fight. It's like he loses the ability to think logically when it comes to islam, quran and muhammad in particular. I tried to show discrepancies or refer to the verse which says that Allah guides whom he wills but he said that my prayers are insincere and i don't do the supplications right *sigh*

    I don't think he is a bad guy... I'm just appalled how he can read verses in the quran and say: perfection, perfect moral standards, guidance. To read men excel women, all the violence, incitement to violence, constant reminder of hell fire, threats and making people fear fear fear and think: perfection!

    I guess my questions are:
    Is this what brainwashing does to you? Can it be undone?
    How can people simply believe that? Can't they feel is wrong?
    He can't see how divisive his thinking is, how is it possible?
    What happens to 'no compulsion in religion'?
    I find it so so hard to reconcile that i've been with someone who seemed so great he actually thinks that under some circumstances he can discipline his wife physically. That Mo is the mercy to humanity. How can he reconcile it. How can I do it? How do I deal with it?
    I thought that maybe I'm deluded but then I read the quran again and it just makes my heart sink and tears fall down my cheeks. How can he read it and actually reassure himself in being muslim?
    I guess that somewhere deep down I wanted to drive him away from islam, but I failed. Because islam trumps everything, love and dedication means nothing when we are talking about afterlife *super sigh*
    As Ch. Hitchens said: once again religion poisoned everything.

    Apologies for super long intro and thank you for any insightful comments you might wish to post (i hope they will help me understand and move on with my life:). BIG BIG THANK YOU Smiley thnkyu thnkyu thnkyu thnkyu thnkyu thnkyu thnkyu




    Quote from: zooby on December 26, 2011, 01:57 AM
    I think a lot of us were brought here by google. Verily google guides whom it wills!

  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #1 - January 02, 2011, 01:40 PM
    Welcome clarap.   Smiley  There are a few people on the forum who have been in similar situations, and hopefully they will find this thread and chip in with their perspective.  I'm moving your story to the Intro section to make it easier to find.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #2 - January 02, 2011, 01:53 PM
    welcome clarap.  I actually had a saudi muslimah tell me she rather be
    beaten (whipped) than face hellfire and damnation.  

    here's three bunnies for ya   bunny bunny bunny
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #3 - January 02, 2011, 01:55 PM
    Welcome, clarap  Smiley

    I guess my questions are:
    > Is this what brainwashing does to you?

    Yes

    > Can it be undone?

    Sometimes.

    > How can people simply believe that? Can't they feel is wrong?

    The human mind seems to have an infinite capacity for self-delusion.

    > He can't see how divisive his thinking is, how is it possible?

    See above.

    > What happens to 'no compulsion in religion'?

    It gets explained is some apologetic bullshit manner.

    > I find it so so hard to reconcile that i've been with someone who seemed so great he actually thinks that under some circumstances he can discipline his wife physically. That Mo is the mercy to humanity.

    Welcome to the world of Muslims.

    > How can he reconcile it. How can I do it?

    Muslims have been doing it for 1400 years by selective vision, mind-bending apologetic bullshit, appealing to emotion, avoiding reason, and picking and choosing...

    > How do I deal with it?

    In this case I seriously doubt you can. Best to move on. Sorry.

    > I thought that maybe I'm deluded but then I read the quran again and it just makes my heart sink and tears fall down my cheeks. How can he read it and actually reassure himself in being muslim?

    As above.
  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #4 - January 02, 2011, 02:08 PM
    Like Hassan says move on. Unless he apostates, your relationship is doomed. 
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #5 - January 02, 2011, 02:18 PM
    Hello, good luck with sorting out that stuff.  Smiley
  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #6 - January 02, 2011, 02:19 PM
    Hi  clarap.

    Somebody with a first hand personal experience of a situation you are in is definitely more suitable to give you advice on that particular topic but I can imagine that its not easy being with somebody who essentially doesn't respect you for who you are and demands that you completely abandon your moral compass.

    This is my view on some of the questions you have raised:

    Quote from: clarap on January 02, 2011, 01:36 PM
    How can people simply believe that? Can't they feel is wrong?

    For most theist morality comes directly from god. In other words whatever deed god sanctions becomes automatically moral.

    Ethnic cleansing of Banu Qurayza tribe? Moral.

    Marrying a 6 year old girl and having sex with her when she was 9? Perfectly moral.

    Flying a plane into a building full of civilians? Absolutely moral.

    Therefore as long as a theists are absolutely sure that their deeds are sanctioned by god they cannot act immorally by definition.

    The lesson is that if God exists, then everything, including blowing up thousands of innocent bystanders, is permitted - at least to those who claim to act directly on behalf of God, since, clearly, a direct link to God justifies the violation of any merely human constraints and considerations.

    Quote from: clarap on January 02, 2011, 01:36 PM
    I find it so so hard to reconcile that i've been with someone who seemed so great he actually thinks that under some circumstances he can discipline his wife physically. That Mo is the mercy to humanity. How can he reconcile it. How can I do it? How do I deal with it?

    Most people are spontaneously moral and therefore have to transform an immoral act such as the one discussed above into something that is (in their minds) a good deed.

    Literalism Islam allows for that by dehumanizing its followers and anaesthetizing them against their elementary spontaneous morality.

    Quote from: clarap on January 02, 2011, 01:36 PM
    He can't see how divisive his thinking is, how is it possible?

    I thought that maybe I'm deluded but then I read the quran again and it just makes my heart sink and tears fall down my cheeks. How can he read it and actually reassure himself in being muslim?

    He doesn't care. It's all ordained and prescribed by god. For him its a question of either offending god or a mere human; or even less than that - a disbeliever. It's obvious who is going to win.

  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #7 - January 02, 2011, 02:53 PM
    Quote from: clarap on January 02, 2011, 01:36 PM
    But soon he confessed he loved me and he would want me to become his wife but... i need to convert (at least he was honest!).

    You could've just said you were Christian.

    Muslim men are allowed to marry a Christian.
    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #8 - January 02, 2011, 03:27 PM
    Quote from: clarap on January 02, 2011, 01:36 PM

    2) i heard that i'm full of hate and ignorant and just 'don't want to see the truth and beauty of islam'.




    That is classic Muslim logic - believing Muslims really do live in an alternative dimension.

    But this has roots in Islam, non Muslims are considered to be arrogant because they 'deny' the 'truth' of Islam.

    Its one of the things that puts Islam (and many Muslims) on an aggressive footing against the rest of the world to begin with - they have a self-righteous, existential grievance against the entire human race, they feel a sense of dispossession, as if their rights are being offended, simply because Islam is not bowed down to by everyone on earth. Its a recipe for perpetual mental torment, grievance mongering, sullen sulking. Its also pompous, inverted and rather comical when you think about it (although a dark comedy, because it leads to such dark attitudes)
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #9 - January 02, 2011, 03:31 PM
    Quote from: clarap on January 02, 2011, 01:36 PM
    But soon he confessed he loved me and he would want me to become his wife but... i need to convert (at least he was honest!).


    Classic stuff - Islam has to dominate and a non Muslim has to be 'cleansed' in order to be married. When they date you and sleep with you, it doesn't seem to bother them.

    Islam is codified hypocrisy and chauvinism.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #10 - January 02, 2011, 03:39 PM
    Welcome to the forum. victory



    Quote from: clarap on January 02, 2011, 01:36 PM
    How can people simply believe that? Can't they feel is wrong?
    He can't see how divisive his thinking is, how is it possible?

    Evolutionary psychology has all the answers you are looking for. Smiley
    Humans are hard-wired with a lot of cognitive biases.  A relic of our distant past.

    See this video:

    Michael Shermer: Why people believe strange things

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T_jwq9ph8k
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #11 - January 02, 2011, 03:44 PM
                                                               WELCOME

    It's good that people like you come here before they take the 'fatal' step. Don't be worried about the confusion you are in,it's a very good sign that you are really thinking. Congratulations!
    Don't go by what other people say, keep your emotions in check and think things out  RATIONALLY!. The truth is only you can help yourself!


    Quote
    I think what drew me most was how peaceful they looked! At least those ladies I met.


    Hey! Everybody, I have heard this over and over again, WTH is the mystery behind this?
    clarap,you know something a corpse's face could be the most peaceful face you have ever seen! Does that mean anything? Don't tell me you have not been able to spot a single native male or female face,that belonged to a NON-MUSLIM which appeared to be peaceful?
    Anyway a face that appears eternally peaceful is dead IMO! It's a part of life,you are very peaceful sometimes, and agitated at other times.
    Some of the greatest creative works in the history of mankind has come from highly agitated minds. Agitation to a certain degree is very healthy,in fact  it's a sign of vitality.
    A zombie always appears to be in a frozen peaceful state!

    Quote
    I also confronted him about these issues and got one of two responses:
    1) glossy image and explanation available on islamic sites
    2) i heard that i'm full of hate and ignorant and just 'don't want to see the truth and beauty of islam'.


    Avoid these people like the plague. I find this strange really, most con victims prefer to be silent rather than reveal to the world they have been stupid. I am almost convinced now that it's basic human nature. Admitting that you were wrong and foolish takes a lot of courage.
    Tell these people that hating and loving are two sides of the same  coin and hence,as you have perceived them to be on the obverse side of the coin, they deserve your contempt for being arrogantly stupid!

    Quote
    Needless to say that I'd get to be with the guy I fell in love with, quite an added value Smiley



    You should never fall in love, you should 'stroll' into it! You should be calculative, not like a gold digger but like a person who sets off to buy a dress and is clear in her mind what she wants, to be confident enough not to be bedazzled by the numerous choices and end up buying what the salesman wants to fob on her!
    I should think, selecting Mr. Right is even more important than selecting a dress!

    In conclusion, if I were in his shoes, and I really loved you, I wouldn't make an issue of the difference in religions[One great advantage of not following any religion BTW, YOU WOULDN'T ENCOUNTER THIS KIND OF BS AT ALL].
    Ask him if he will convert to your religion? Or at least practice his religion in peace and STFU about your religion. Or tell him you have decided to be an atheist/agnostic/ a humanist[who doesn't care a fuck about GOD's existence but loves humanity] and give him the option of doing likewise or at least tolerate the difference.
    You will know his true colours and the extent of 'HIS LOVE'


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #12 - January 02, 2011, 04:08 PM
    Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on January 02, 2011, 01:53 PM
    welcome clarap.  I actually had a saudi muslimah tell me she rather be
    beaten (whipped) than face hellfire and damnation.  

    here's three bunnies for ya   bunny bunny bunny


    I would have gladly sought employment there for that job and given her a good near death experience! Afro


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #13 - January 02, 2011, 04:11 PM
    Quote from: ateapotist on January 02, 2011, 03:39 PM
    Welcome to the forum. victory


    Evolutionary psychology has all the answers you are looking for. Smiley
    Humans are hard-wired with a lot of cognitive biases.  A relic of our distant past.

    See this video:

    Michael Shermer: Why people believe strange things

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T_jwq9ph8k


    Excellent vid - thanks  Afro
  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #14 - January 02, 2011, 05:22 PM
    first of all BIG THANK YOU TO EVERYONE Smiley I must say I didn't expect so many replies in such a short period of time!  thnkyu Smiley

    let me reply to each of you amazing guys Smiley e
    Quote from: Cheetah on January 02, 2011, 01:40 PM
    Welcome clarap.   Smiley  There are a few people on the forum who have been in similar situations, and hopefully they will find this thread and chip in with their perspective.  I'm moving your story to the Intro section to make it easier to find.


    Cheetah, thanks for moving my post and thank you for warm welcome Smiley i'm going through some old posts to read other stories and comments Smiley thanks!

    Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on January 02, 2011, 01:53 PM
    welcome clarap.  I actually had a saudi muslimah tell me she rather be
    beaten (whipped) than face hellfire and damnation.  

    here's three bunnies for ya   bunny bunny bunny


    Thanks Jinn and Tonic Smiley it actually makes me really sad that women say those kind of things :( sometimes we can be our own worst enemies i guess.
    Excuse my ignorance but do bunnies actually 'stand for sth'?

    Quote from: Hassan on January 02, 2011, 01:55 PM
    Welcome, clarap  Smiley Thank you!

    > I find it so so hard to reconcile that i've been with someone who seemed so great he actually thinks that under some circumstances he can discipline his wife physically. That Mo is the mercy to humanity.

    Welcome to the world of Muslims.

    > How can he reconcile it. How can I do it?

    Muslims have been doing it for 1400 years by selective vision, mind-bending apologetic bullshit, appealing to emotion, avoiding reason, and picking and choosing...

    I understand. I see it on muslim forums, blogs about islam ALL THE TIME. Mind boggles. I lost my temper debating some idiot about child marriages. It's like talking to a wall. Mental cage comes to my mind. That's why it seems to me absolutely incredulous that people wouldn't just drop it altogether. I'd feel ashamed of myself if I had to explain and justify stuff in the quran that to me are simply not possible to justify. I understand someone might want to cling to the idea of God but to believe quran and mo are perfect moral examples for humanity (no offense to anyone) - that's beyond my imagination.

    Quote from: Hassan on January 02, 2011, 01:55 PM


    > How do I deal with it?

    In this case I seriously doubt you can. Best to move on. Sorry. - Brutally honest, that's what I like Smiley

    > I thought that maybe I'm deluded but then I read the quran again and it just makes my heart sink and tears fall down my cheeks. How can he read it and actually reassure himself in being muslim?

    As above.




    Thank you for replying Hassan Smiley

    Quote from: IsLame on January 02, 2011, 02:08 PM
    Like Hassan says move on. Unless he apostates, your relationship is doomed. 


    IsLame, thanks for replying! I know it is and the chances were really thin but I just need to understand the mindset. I really would want to get into his head and see what he thinks and how he justifies his intolerant views.
    Funny thing is that i'm the bad one in his eyes, the one full of hate and prejudice, not him.


    Quote from: Zebedee on January 02, 2011, 02:18 PM
    Hello, good luck with sorting out that stuff.  Smiley


    Thank you Zebedee Smiley i hope this emotional roller coaster will be over soon Smiley

    next reply to come Smiley






    Quote from: zooby on December 26, 2011, 01:57 AM
    I think a lot of us were brought here by google. Verily google guides whom it wills!

  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #15 - January 02, 2011, 06:05 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on January 02, 2011, 02:19 PM
    Hi  clarap.

    Somebody with a first hand personal experience of a situation you are in is definitely more suitable to give you advice on that particular topic but I can imagine that its not easy being with somebody who essentially doesn't respect you for who you are and demands that you completely abandon your moral compass.


    It's pain in the arse! By all means I am not perfect but hell I think I can tell right from wrong. It's the first time in my life I met someone with such a completely different set of moral values than mine.
    At first I didn't have a problem for him to practice his religion as long as he didn't impose anything on me, but the more I was learning about Islam the more and more difficult it became to separate him and Islam cause his views were islam (if that makes sense). So i loved and cared about him but as much as he couldn't accept me as a non-muslim, I couldn't accept his views and as a result him. Tried to separate him and islam but didn't happen and i ended up feeling horrible about thinking it's okay for him to believe stuff like polygamy and wife beating in the quran (among others). I felt that if I am okay with him to believe that, I am silently accepting his beliefs and that gave me a lot of sleepless nights.

    Quote from: Kenan on January 02, 2011, 02:19 PM

    Most people are spontaneously moral and therefore have to transform an immoral act such as the one discussed above into something that is (in their minds) a good deed.


    Bloody hell!! how much intelectual acrobatics do you have to go through to arrive at the conclusion that an immoral act is actually something good? wouldn't it be easier to just admit it's immoral, not worthy of emulation, drop it and start anew? *sigh*

    Quote from: Kenan on January 02, 2011, 02:19 PM

    Literalism Islam allows for that by dehumanizing its followers and anaesthetizing them against their elementary spontaneous morality.

    He doesn't care. It's all ordained and prescribed by god. For him its a question of either offending god or a mere human; or even less than that - a disbeliever. It's obvious who is going to win.


    oh dear... no surprise i always felt as if i was fighting with god. still it was easier to argue the ideas in the quran rather than mo... didn't dare to go there after stuff i read on the internet. once i mentioned some doubt, a mere doubt about the character of mo, i heard i sound like the danish cartoonist...
    and yeah, i'm a mere human, infidel. what was i thinking?

    Quote from: olweasel on January 02, 2011, 02:53 PM
    You could've just said you were Christian.

    Muslim men are allowed to marry a Christian.


    nope, that wasn't good enough. his family would certainly not accept me, same true for his friends. i needed to follow his way. besides, in such oppressive environment i wouldn't last long. it's almost as if opposing views need to be nipped in the bud. kind of like: accept or else!
    the thing is that even if he was okay with me being whoever religiously I don't think he would ever stick up for me in front of his family.
    again, because as he said: "i consistently refuse to see the beauty of islam that stupid media would not cover".
    thanks for replying Smiley


    Quote from: billy on January 02, 2011, 03:27 PM
    That is classic Muslim logic - believing Muslims really do live in an alternative dimension.

    But this has roots in Islam, non Muslims are considered to be arrogant because they 'deny' the 'truth' of Islam.

    Its one of the things that puts Islam (and many Muslims) on an aggressive footing against the rest of the world to begin with - they have a self-righteous, existential grievance against the entire human race, they feel a sense of dispossession, as if their rights are being offended, simply because Islam is not bowed down to by everyone on earth. Its a recipe for perpetual mental torment, grievance mongering, sullen sulking. Its also pompous, inverted and rather comical when you think about it (although a dark comedy, because it leads to such dark attitudes)



    Billy thanks for replying Smiley
    The sense of righteousness he had was unbelievable. Lengths he would go to justify polygamy and other women issues! but when i pointed how wrong his thinking was it was due to my ignorance and it was me with screwed up morals for not accepting the great moral example of quran, not him.

    Quote from: billy on January 02, 2011, 03:31 PM
    Classic stuff - Islam has to dominate and a non Muslim has to be 'cleansed' in order to be married. When they date you and sleep with you, it doesn't seem to bother them.

    Islam is codified hypocrisy and chauvinism.


    Hmm it did bother him. He told me many times how guilty he felt. Still, it didn't stop him to tell me at some point that he loves me but it pains him to know that we won't meet in heaven because i'm non-muslim...



    Quote from: zooby on December 26, 2011, 01:57 AM
    I think a lot of us were brought here by google. Verily google guides whom it wills!

  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #16 - January 02, 2011, 06:15 PM
    Quote
    IsLame, thanks for replying! I know it is and the chances were really thin but I just need to understand the mindset. I really would want to get into his head and see what he thinks and how he justifies his intolerant views.
    Funny thing is that i'm the bad one in his eyes, the one full of hate and prejudice, not him.

     
    It wont work, from my experience he sounds too far gone to be able to compromise. 

    Rather than arguing with him, watch muslim youtube videos if you want to understand the mindset & save yourself the energy.  Basically he is brainwashed from birth, its the only truth he knows.  We have been taught to look into science books for truth, he has been taught to look to the Quran. 

    At no stage will I look to the Quran over a science book for the ulitimate truth, nor will he vice versa.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #17 - January 02, 2011, 06:28 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 02, 2011, 06:15 PM

    It wont work, from my experience he sounds too far gone to be able to compromise. 

    Rather than arguing with him, watch muslim youtube videos if you want to understand the mindset & save yourself the energy.  Basically he is brainwashed from birth, its the only truth he knows.  We have been taught to look into science books for truth, he has been taught to look to the Quran. 

    At no stage will I look to the Quran over a science book for the ulitimate truth, nor will he vice versa.


    but people do go from being very extreme in their interpretation of islam to apostasy. but then i guess that you have to want it yourself. no amount of nagging from outsiders will change it.
    the truth is that i simply loved and cared about him and i think i still do care. that's why i want to understand even though i know that our views are incompatible, to put it mildly, to be together. thanks! Smiley
    Quote from: zooby on December 26, 2011, 01:57 AM
    I think a lot of us were brought here by google. Verily google guides whom it wills!

  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #18 - January 02, 2011, 06:45 PM
    Quote from: clarap on January 02, 2011, 06:28 PM
    but people do go from being very extreme in their interpretation of islam to apostasy. but then i guess that you have to want it yourself. no amount of nagging from outsiders will change it.

    Yep many do change their minds & turn to apostacy.  But the vast majority of us were rational thinkers inside.  From the language you used earlier, he sounds to far gone to me. 

    They're are plenty of fish in the sea, and many more who will love you for who you are & you will love back.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #19 - January 02, 2011, 06:55 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 02, 2011, 06:45 PM
    Yep many do change their minds & turn to apostacy.  But the vast majority of us were rational thinkers inside.  From the language you used earlier, he sounds to far gone to me.

     
    I see. i share your opinion.

    Quote from: IsLame on January 02, 2011, 06:45 PM
     

    They're are plenty of fish in the sea, and many more who will love you for who you are & you will love back.


    awww thanks! he'd certainly disagree with you on that one and say that i'm the most stubborn lady ever (refuse to see 'the truth'). i can be a pushover sometimes cause i'm sucker for love and happy endings but i'm also independent and disobedient haha. the last two my two great vices Cheesy always wondered what's with this crazy female obedience in islam!

    thank you all! and i will reply to the rest of comments Smiley

    Quote from: zooby on December 26, 2011, 01:57 AM
    I think a lot of us were brought here by google. Verily google guides whom it wills!

  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #20 - January 02, 2011, 06:57 PM
    Quote from: clarap on January 02, 2011, 06:55 PM
    awww thanks! he'd certainly disagree with you on that one and say that i'm the most stubborn lady ever (refuse to see 'the truth').

     Roll Eyes Have you reversed this back to him, & said he is because he refuses to see the truth  whistling2

    Quote from: clarap on January 02, 2011, 06:55 PM
    awww thanks! he'd certainly disagree with you on that one and say that i'm the most stubborn lady ever (refuse to see 'the truth').

    Is he your first love?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #21 - January 02, 2011, 07:21 PM
    I really wish I had been as clear-headed as you are. I got married to a Muslim at 18 and converted at 19. I thought I did it purely out of belief, but now I realize that there is an additional subconscious component to belief when you're in a relationship with a Muslim. Anyway, 4 kids and 1 divorce later (after 18 years, and due to my apostasy) I want to scream to you, "RUN LIKE HELL AND NEVER LOOK BACK!" Or ok, maybe that's a bit extreme, and it's ok to care about him, just reconcile yourself to the fact that he is afflicted with a demented worldview and it's not necessarily possible for you to change it, nor is it appropriate and healthy for you to have such a partner.

    Let go of the hope of being with him, or the fantasy that he doesn't REALLY believe all the crap in Islam and deal with him as someone you care about, but don't emotionally invest in his de-conversion or in a romantic future with him. Let it be. As IsLame said, there are plenty of other men out there that you'll be more compatable with. If you try to make this work as I did, you'll end up regretting it. I would bet large sums of money on that. You are welcome to PM if you want to discuss my/your experiences further. Oh, and I lived in the Middle East too, and that's a whole separate topic!
    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."~Steven Weinberg
  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #22 - January 02, 2011, 07:34 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 02, 2011, 06:57 PM
    Roll Eyes Have you reversed this back to him, & said he is because he refuses to see the truth  whistling2
    Is he your first love?


    oh yes i did but according to him Islam has no contradictions, it's perfectly logical, you know the drill.

    yeah, well i had crushes on guys before and went out with a few but i always ended it quickly. so yeah, he is my first love :blushing:
    Quote from: zooby on December 26, 2011, 01:57 AM
    I think a lot of us were brought here by google. Verily google guides whom it wills!

  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #23 - January 02, 2011, 07:56 PM
    Quote from: newsoul on January 02, 2011, 07:21 PM
    I really wish I had been as clear-headed as you are. I got married to a Muslim at 18 and converted at 19. I thought I did it purely out of belief, but now I realize that there is an additional subconscious component to belief when you're in a relationship with a Muslim. Anyway, 4 kids and 1 divorce later (after 18 years, and due to my apostasy) I want to scream to you, "RUN LIKE HELL AND NEVER LOOK BACK!" Or ok, maybe that's a bit extreme, and it's ok to care about him, just reconcile yourself to the fact that he is afflicted with a demented worldview and it's not necessarily possible for you to change it, nor is it appropriate and healthy for you to have such a partner.

    Let go of the hope of being with him, or the fantasy that he doesn't REALLY believe all the crap in Islam and deal with him as someone you care about, but don't emotionally invest in his de-conversion or in a romantic future with him. Let it be. As IsLame said, there are plenty of other men out there that you'll be more compatable with. If you try to make this work as I did, you'll end up regretting it. I would bet large sums of money on that. You are welcome to PM if you want to discuss my/your experiences further. Oh, and I lived in the Middle East too, and that's a whole separate topic!


    thanks for replying to my post Smiley
    oh there was time i so wanted to be muslim so just he could accept me.
    i simply could not believe (and still can't) that religion can trump everything. as i said, i'm a sucker for love and to me love is the highest power, you don't simply walk over it in my world Smiley
    yep, i'm that naive Wink

    please don't be to hard on yourself cause back then i believe access to information was not as ready as it is now. these days you can have pretty much all info at your fingertips.
    i know you are totally right and I should definitely learn from your experience.
    I'm sorry to hear that you've had such experiences :( i'm sending a virtual hug Smiley  far away hug
    Quote from: zooby on December 26, 2011, 01:57 AM
    I think a lot of us were brought here by google. Verily google guides whom it wills!

  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #24 - January 02, 2011, 08:13 PM
    Quote from: clarap on January 02, 2011, 07:34 PM
    oh yes i did but according to him Islam has no contradictions, it's perfectly logical, you know the drill.

    yeah, well i had crushes on guys before and went out with a few but i always ended it quickly. so yeah, he is my first love :blushing:

    Its hard to see the wood through the trees with your first love - I could never find anyone again quite like him  icon_blahblah
    Ive been there before, & thought the same thing.  But we all find love again & again & again.  I really dont believe there is one person who is meant for us.  Dont waste any more time on him.. If you must tell him either he accepts you as you are, or not at all.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #25 - January 02, 2011, 08:40 PM
    Yeah, it's true. If there had been an internet back then things would have been different, I think. But I don't beat myself up about it. It's all learning and so I have no regrets. I also have a GREAT new life! So, bite the bullet and have faith that you WILL meet someone better for you. If you step back and look at it objectively, you'll see that he'll be nothing but a drag on your psyche as you attempt to reconcile the idiocy with what you know to be wrong. Remember that love is something in your mind, and you can build it for others just as you did for him. It's really that simple. Try this exercise:

    Visualize yourself in the future, the natural progression of who you are now, strong and confident.

    Now, imagine yourself with a man the supports and nurtures your values and the person that you are.

    Now, visualize that woman with a man that thinks it's ok to blow up innocent people, have sex slaves, multiple wives that he can beat and who must obey him, and who thinks the purpose of his life is to bow down to a sadistic, narcissistic God and do whatever it commands of him.



    Which future serves your higher good and allows you to develop fully?

     far away hug
    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."~Steven Weinberg
  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #26 - January 02, 2011, 08:40 PM
    and here comes the rest

    Quote from: hypocrucifier on January 02, 2011, 03:44 PM
                                                              WELCOME

    It's good that people like you come here before they take the 'fatal' step. Don't be worried about the confusion you are in,it's a very good sign that you are really thinking. Congratulations!
    Don't go by what other people say, keep your emotions in check and think things out  RATIONALLY!. The truth is only you can help yourself!


    Am I still thinking? phew! thank's god for that ;P i really thought i lost my senses and ability to think clearly, it was a welcome reassurance that i didn't Smiley

    Quote from: hypocrucifier on January 02, 2011, 03:44 PM

    Hey! Everybody, I have heard this over and over again, WTH is the mystery behind this?
    clarap,you know something a corpse's face could be the most peaceful face you have ever seen! Does that mean anything? Don't tell me you have not been able to spot a single native male or female face,that belonged to a NON-MUSLIM which appeared to be peaceful?
    Anyway a face that appears eternally peaceful is dead IMO! It's a part of life,you are very peaceful sometimes, and agitated at other times.
    Some of the greatest creative works in the history of mankind has come from highly agitated minds. Agitation to a certain degree is very healthy,in fact  it's a sign of vitality.
    A zombie always appears to be in a frozen peaceful state!



    hypocrucifier of course i've seen non-muslims who appeared to be peaceful.
    i really can't put my finger on what it is. maybe extreme delusion does that to you? that you live in your own bubble? i don't know Smiley what i know is that it's been a few difficult years for me and i guess that i needed at least one constant in my life. for a brief moment i saw that in islam. muslims i personally know are nice people and they did make islam look really nice. So i guess that lack of knowledge about islam and longing for something made me a really good target.
    But I have an iranian friend, she is an apostate as well, and I talked to her a lot. That's when I started looking into the whole business properly.

    Quote from: hypocrucifier on January 02, 2011, 03:44 PM
    Avoid these people like the plague. I find this strange really, most con victims prefer to be silent rather than reveal to the world they have been stupid. I am almost convinced now that it's basic human nature. Admitting that you were wrong and foolish takes a lot of courage.
    Tell these people that hating and loving are two sides of the same  coin and hence,as you have perceived them to be on the obverse side of the coin, they deserve your contempt for being arrogantly stupid!


    I always told him to present me with logical arguments that are morally sound and I will change my mind. Never happened.
    I want to learn from my experience and pass it on. But I think for your argument to be plausible you need to support it with sound sources.
    Quote from: hypocrucifier on January 02, 2011, 03:44 PM

    You should never fall in love, you should 'stroll' into it! You should be calculative, not like a gold digger but like a person who sets off to buy a dress and is clear in her mind what she wants, to be confident enough not to be bedazzled by the numerous choices and end up buying what the salesman wants to fob on her!
    I should think, selecting Mr. Right is even more important than selecting a dress!


    I feel ya! Smiley but you know the love high and stuff, it really makes you blind! (plus i'm very very shortsighted so i will blame it on that heh Wink
    Quote from: hypocrucifier on January 02, 2011, 03:44 PM

    In conclusion, if I were in his shoes, and I really loved you, I wouldn't make an issue of the difference in religions[One great advantage of not following any religion BTW, YOU WOULDN'T ENCOUNTER THIS KIND OF BS AT ALL].
    Ask him if he will convert to your religion? Or at least practice his religion in peace and STFU about your religion. Or tell him you have decided to be an atheist/agnostic/ a humanist[who doesn't care a fuck about GOD's existence but loves humanity] and give him the option of doing likewise or at least tolerate the difference.
    You will know his true colours and the extent of 'HIS LOVE'


    oh this i already know. his path or no path for both of us at all. he loves me, it breaks his heart, blah blah blah but god is more important. we are talking of hellfire here! Tongue
    i gave him time to think it through, his attitude etc but we were back to square one when he said that he will not allow his children to grow up without indoctrination (besides if we were to live in the middle east, the school would take care of religion). As he said: i cannot imagine my children being non-muslim. it's so wrong, so wrong!
    so i guess you can that it wasn't love in the first place *sigh*

    thank you for taking time to comment Smiley



    Quote from: zooby on December 26, 2011, 01:57 AM
    I think a lot of us were brought here by google. Verily google guides whom it wills!

  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #27 - January 02, 2011, 08:43 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 02, 2011, 08:13 PM
    Its hard to see the wood through the trees with your first love - I could never find anyone again quite like him  icon_blahblah


    omg you must be reading my mind haha

    Quote from: IsLame on January 02, 2011, 08:13 PM
    Ive been there before, & thought the same thing.  But we all find love again & again & again.  I really dont believe there is one person who is meant for us.  Dont waste any more time on him.. If you must tell him either he accepts you as you are, or not at all.


    thank you Smiley i think i'm going to print this thread off and read it before bed every night haha
    Quote from: zooby on December 26, 2011, 01:57 AM
    I think a lot of us were brought here by google. Verily google guides whom it wills!

  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #28 - January 02, 2011, 08:55 PM
    Quote from: newsoul on January 02, 2011, 08:40 PM
    Yeah, it's true. If there had been an internet back then things would have been different, I think. But I don't beat myself up about it. It's all learning and so I have no regrets. I also have a GREAT new life! So, bite the bullet and have faith that you WILL meet someone better for you. If you step back and look at it objectively, you'll see that he'll be nothing but a drag on your psyche as you attempt to reconcile the idiocy with what you know to be wrong. Remember that love is something in your mind, and you can build it for others just as you did for him. It's really that simple. Try this exercise:

    Visualize yourself in the future, the natural progression of who you are now, strong and confident.

    Now, imagine yourself with a man the supports and nurtures your values and the person that you are.

    Now, visualize that woman with a man that thinks it's ok to blow up innocent people, have sex slaves, multiple wives that he can beat and who must obey him, and who thinks the purpose of his life is to bow down to a sadistic, narcissistic God and do whatever it commands of him.



    Which future serves your higher good and allows you to develop fully?

     far away hug


    easy! the first guy sounds just about who i want Smiley if he was scandinavian, it would be like a cherry on a cake Wink
    i don't know if it's a woman's thing but i see that with myself and some of my friends that fear keeps them in bad relationships. i mean, the fact that we don't really know whether we are going to meet someone 100%, the risk that they are afraid to take keeps them sticking around. not to say that it's always men's fault or anything like that.

    i know it's so silly but i've moved to holland recently and the very simple thing as a bike ride puts such a banana smile on my face! cause i imagine myself in islamic garb (saudi style) and that i couldn't do such a thing in saudi. i think i appreciate freedom, which i might have traded so cheaply, so much more these days Smiley
    Quote from: zooby on December 26, 2011, 01:57 AM
    I think a lot of us were brought here by google. Verily google guides whom it wills!

  • Re: defeated by islam, relationship down the drain. why? what now?
     Reply #29 - January 02, 2011, 09:32 PM
    Trust me, it is WAAAAAAAAY better to not be in a relationship and be true to yourself than to follow or try to accomodate the rules of others for the rest of your life. Ride that bike, baby, and with your hair blowing in the wind!

    Even completely veiled women don't ride bikes because it would "attract attention" and the form of her buttocks might show! :O One day when you find your hot Scandi guy you'll thank me for this. Yes you will! Part of growing up and being authentic is realizing and adhering to some standards for our mates and also being complete all by ourselves. A relationship should be icing on the cake, not the cake itself.

    So yes, it's a little scary and sad, but those feelings will pass and you'll find your way. And if you ever need a pep talk, you've found the right place!
    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."~Steven Weinberg
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