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Theme Changer

 Topic: Of Muslims and Mormons

 (Read 5743 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Of Muslims and Mormons
     OP - January 05, 2011, 06:33 AM

    Hitchens once said something along the lines of that if you want to understand the real history of the religions from the past, you need not look much further from the ones of the recent past.

    To me it seems that the history of Mormonism has amazing parallels with the history of Islam. I've long maintained that the 'prophets' had personality disorders (they were not liars or delusional...but both, as in someone with a personality disorder who makes things up and also believes in the stuff he made up).
    I thought more about it after hearing so many arguments like "Hay, if Muhammed wasnt a prophet do you think so many people would follow him. I mean, how could a crazy person have built and Empire". I'd usually just say, ask Hitler or the million other Empires run by crazy people though history (I mean, c'mon...the ancient Egyptians were pretty squared away and they beleived all kind of crazy things), or something like that, but thinking more on it Mormonism offers a perfect window into this.

    Islam today is much bigger (apx 1.2 billion vs apx 13 million), but also consider Mormonism is less than 200 years old. Not only that, but did not have the advantage of being born in a time of massive relative ignorance and illiteracy..instead coming on the scene in the post enlightenment west fairly recently. It barely had time to get its motor running before Darwin came around. Imagine what Joe Smith could have done if he was in 7th century Arabia instead.

    So, I thought I'd throw that out there.
    Invite you to really get a look at the histoy of Mormonism, as a way maybe of gaining greater understanding of the history of islam, by comparing and contrasting.

    http://historyofmormonism.com/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism
    http://carm.org/mormonism
    http://www.inplainsite.org/html/smith_and_muhammed.html (this one lays out it out in a simple manner, however be warned...this one is a christian apologist, only included because it highlights certain things I thought significant)

    and even interesting articles by Mormons on Islam, which you may find both surprising and familiar (they are people of the book too  Wink):
    http://www.mormonchurch.com/37/what-do-mormons-think-of-muhammad

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #1 - January 05, 2011, 07:15 AM

    Mormons would not people of the book inspite of claiming to believe in Jesus Christ, I would imagine.  The Mormon theology that all men and women have the possibility and most probably will become God's place them in a precarious position of extreme polytheism ( how many more possible gods could there possibly be than the entire population of Earth.) I haven't seen any critical analysis of Mormonism by Muslima scholars but I don't think it would bode well.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #2 - January 05, 2011, 07:26 AM

    I did get a chuckle at the Christian apologetic site topic called strange beliefs of Mormonism

    Mormonism is obviously not the biblical version of Christianity. It is not Christian, and Mormons serve a different god than do the Christians -- a god that does not exist.  Paul talks about this in Gal. 4:8, "when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods."  Only the God of the Bible exists.  There are no others.  Mormonism puts its faith in a non-existent god.


    Orly.jpeg

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #3 - January 05, 2011, 08:18 AM

    Mormons would not people of the book inspite of claiming to believe in Jesus Christ, I would imagine.  The Mormon theology that all men and women have the possibility and most probably will become God's place them in a precarious position of extreme polytheism ( how many more possible gods could there possibly be than the entire population of Earth.) I haven't seen any critical analysis of Mormonism by Muslima scholars but I don't think it would bode well.


    You misunderstood.
    I meant that muslims are people of the book to Mormons. Keep in mind also, I'm not comparing dogma. I'm comparing their inceptions (based on earlier biblical religions, take same stories, make claims that those stories were corrupted, add new spin that they really were this way and new prophet is correcting that, claim to be last prophet) and their secular histories....its even kind of interesting that Joe Smith and his followers had to make a hijra (to Utah as opposed to Medina).

    Yes, I was unsure if to use the one site that was a christian apologetics one.
    However, I felt it had a good break down highlighting some similarities, which is more or less what I wanted to show, so I included it. However in hindsight, maybe I should have read through that one better, as it is well....diluted with it own batshit crazy christian tint on it.  

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #4 - January 05, 2011, 02:28 PM

    Mormonism is the most ridiculous religion ever invented, proven to be a scam even during the lifetime of its so-called prophet, by his own wife no less, and anyone who still believes in obvious, demonstrably proven untruths like that is an outright idiot and should be ashamed of themselves.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #5 - January 05, 2011, 02:30 PM

    Mormonism makes for good TV shows, though


    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #6 - January 05, 2011, 02:33 PM

    More wives more drama.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #7 - January 05, 2011, 02:36 PM

    You're no fun, ruining my post like that.

    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #8 - January 05, 2011, 02:54 PM

    You misunderstood.
    I meant that muslims are people of the book to Mormons. Keep in mind also, I'm not comparing dogma. I'm comparing their inceptions (based on earlier biblical religions, take same stories, make claims that those stories were corrupted, add new spin that they really were this way and new prophet is correcting that, claim to be last prophet) and their secular histories....its even kind of interesting that Joe Smith and his followers had to make a hijra (to Utah as opposed to Medina).

    Yes, I was unsure if to use the one site that was a christian apologetics one.
    However, I felt it had a good break down highlighting some similarities, which is more or less what I wanted to show, so I included it. However in hindsight, maybe I should have read through that one better, as it is well....diluted with it own batshit crazy christian tint on it.  


     the similarities are pretty insightful though.  Like Christopher Hitchens raid, to learn the history of Mormonism is the history of turning a scam into a religion.  If we could build a time machine to view Muhammad and Joseph Smith it would be willing to bet that the similarities would be uncanny.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #9 - January 05, 2011, 02:56 PM

    You're no fun, ruining my post like that.

     I edited mine, is it better?

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #10 - January 05, 2011, 03:15 PM

    Both religions view Judaism and Christianity through some interesting lenses.

    For Mormonism it's polytheistic nature, appears in part, to stem from a literal reading of the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible. The KJV contains at least one place where "Gods" is used because the original Hebrew used a "Royal Plural (of respect)". In English, especially in the United States at that time, an American would have understood "Gods" to be mean a literal plural (ie: more than one). There are probably other examples out there, but this one is the first I think of.

    Some of the weirder views that some Christians have seem to come from a very literal reading of a translated collection of ancient scriptures (which is what an English translation of the bible is). 

    But I don't wish to too much further- the history of translations of the bible can be a huge thread in and of itself.

    El bien mas preciado / es la libertad
    hay que defenderla / con fe y valor.
  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #11 - January 05, 2011, 03:17 PM

    Interesting discussion guys  Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #12 - January 05, 2011, 03:47 PM

    Mormons base their belief in the book of Mormon which was "found" hidden in the woods by Joseph Smith... He deciferd it and translated it in english... Even though the book he found was printed on golden tablets, they somehow vanished Tongue....  The entire idea that Christ came to America after the resurrection in Jerusalem and that the Indians were actually white people who were cursed by god (that's why their appearance changed) is one of the most bizarre things ever claimed...  But hey every religion has some bizarre things in it, hence the need to BELIEVE in it/them...

    Just look at the sun and the moon, rotating around the earth perfectly! Out of all the never ending space in the universe, the sun and moon ended up close to earth rotating around it perfectly.!!

  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #13 - January 05, 2011, 04:35 PM

    Quote
    The entire idea that Christ came to America after the resurrection in Jerusalem and that the Indians were actually white people who were cursed by god (that's why their appearance changed) is one of the most bizarre things ever claimed


    Wow I didn't know that one. Thats a real zinger. That's got to be up there with Scientology's aliens and crazy stuff.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #14 - January 05, 2011, 04:48 PM

    In brief:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #15 - January 05, 2011, 06:57 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHcjXlS7Cnk

    too bad the video is not there.... its hilarious...

    Just look at the sun and the moon, rotating around the earth perfectly! Out of all the never ending space in the universe, the sun and moon ended up close to earth rotating around it perfectly.!!

  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #16 - January 05, 2011, 08:24 PM

    Mormonism is the most ridiculous religion ever invented, proven to be a scam even during the lifetime of its so-called prophet, by his own wife no less, and anyone who still believes in obvious, demonstrably proven untruths like that is an outright idiot and should be ashamed of themselves.


    I'm actually glad you brought that up, because it touches on something else.
    I've known personally 3 Mormons. 2 of them were actually very bright people. One of them was my AP calculous teacher, the other was in several of my classes at university (and actually one of the better students), the third, while no means a rocket scientist, was not a complete idiot either.
    However, they all belonged to a ridiculous religion. There are Mormon doctors working in hospitals right now. Mormonism is actually growing, in places like Russia and South America.
    Think of this when thinking of the growth in the past of other religions, that spread among peoples a million times more ignorant. A religion being ridiculous does not seem to matter once it establishes itself as a 'legitimate' religion.  

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #17 - January 05, 2011, 08:29 PM

    You only have to look at 9/11 conspiracy theories to see how easy and quickly crazy ideas get a load of followers. There are loads of different theories, they can't all be true, and yet plenty of people believe each one as though it is the only logical conclusion and absolutely 100% true.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #18 - January 05, 2011, 08:37 PM

    proven to be a scam even during the lifetime of its so-called prophet, by his own wife no less


    Shades of Aisha's snarky comment, and  Abdullah Ibn Abu Sarh

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #19 - January 05, 2011, 08:54 PM

    The South Park episode sheds some light on the ridiculous beliefs and backstory of Mormonism. If ONLY they could do something like this on Islam... but no.

    But yes, watching the SP episode (assuming it is all accurate, I didn't check the references, lol) I can't believe people actually take this Smith guy seriously. I mean, he gets these stone tablets which translate ancient Indian runes into the book of Mormonism, and he does it inside a hat, and no one else witnesses any of this. Oh yeah and he "talks" to angels.

    If only they had mental institutions back in those days we might have been saved from all of these religions.
  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #20 - January 05, 2011, 09:23 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHcjXlS7Cnk

    too bad the video is not there.... its hilarious...

    http://www.videovat.com/videos/11116/mormonism-explained-by-south-park.aspx

    "...Lucy Harris smart smart smart, Martin Harris dumb."

    One of my favourite episodes. The time we wasted watching that show back in school days... bloody hell.

    Trey & Matt discuss Mormonism:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyiflmigQNs

    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #21 - January 05, 2011, 09:35 PM

     Cheesy Umm, that link to the SP vid is on a rather dodgey page.

    Also, the sound quality is terrible.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #22 - January 05, 2011, 09:42 PM

    A religion being ridiculous does not seem to matter once it establishes itself as a 'legitimate' religion.  

    That gets me too. I mean if you just suddenly invented a similar story and started telling people about it, they'd think you were either lying or nuts or both. Yet when it stops being just someone's opinion and becomes a religion somehow it's supposed to be different.  Huh?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #23 - January 05, 2011, 09:45 PM

    The South Park episode sheds some light on the ridiculous beliefs and backstory of Mormonism. If ONLY they could do something like this on Islam... but no.


    They got death threats just for showing a cartoon of Mo, just imagine what would happen if they took it on Mormon/Scientology-style.


    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #24 - January 05, 2011, 10:01 PM

    GING the funniest thing is that they had ALREADY  SHOWN Mohamed's face few years back and there was no reaction whatsoever..... The whole "Muslims getting offended thing" started after the Danish cartoons, so the shit that happened prior to that went unnoticed ....

    Just look at the sun and the moon, rotating around the earth perfectly! Out of all the never ending space in the universe, the sun and moon ended up close to earth rotating around it perfectly.!!

  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #25 - January 05, 2011, 10:09 PM

    Muslims have shown Mohammed's face plenty of times too.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depictions_of_Muhammad

    http://zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/


    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #26 - January 05, 2011, 10:56 PM

    http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s07e12-all-about-the-mormons

    One of the BEST short descriptions of Mormonism I have ever seen. I also liked how they showed that Mormons, like any other religious group, can have some strange views but still be good people.

    Note: I have noticed a recent push into some Spanish speaking areas. Chicago & Cleveland are two I am aware of.



    El bien mas preciado / es la libertad
    hay que defenderla / con fe y valor.
  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #27 - January 06, 2011, 12:04 AM

    Interestingly most Mormons live outside of Utah and the United States, with with some 5.2 million members in Latin America, especially in Mexico and Brazil. 
    Some of them actually claim its the fastest growing religion  Wink

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #28 - January 06, 2011, 12:47 AM

    Quote
    If only they had mental institutions back in those days we might have been saved from all of these religions.


     Afro



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Of Muslims and Mormons
     Reply #29 - January 06, 2011, 12:48 AM

    Note: I have noticed a recent push into some Spanish speaking areas. Chicago & Cleveland are two I am aware of.

    Cheesy

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
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