Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans

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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #120 - January 20, 2011, 12:56 AM

And this will happen in front of our eyes, right here on a thread on morality? Is nothing sacred anymore?

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #121 - January 20, 2011, 01:06 AM

o
- Alex Lam Meem
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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #122 - January 20, 2011, 01:15 AM

You saw right through me. I'll stop my nonsense and will simply enjoy myself.

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #123 - January 20, 2011, 01:18 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on January 20, 2011, 01:06 AM

@Hairy

Do you have hairy bottom cheeks? Don't shave it off. I like wading through a jungle.

YOU SICKO alias is merely a reference to the "hairy imp" in "billy Markham and the devil" but nice to have some one one interested, considering my girl stood me up or more appropriately sat me up as we were supposed to have a video chat 2 hours ago and she didn' come online. How tragic is that

Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on January 20, 2011, 01:15 AM
You saw right through me. I'll stop my nonsense and will simply enjoy myself.

Sicko x2 wlcm btw its only 1 £ per min

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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #124 - January 20, 2011, 01:48 AM

You have no idea how tragic it is. Now it's only you and Mount a Bison. So tragic...

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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #125 - January 20, 2011, 08:15 PM

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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #126 - January 20, 2011, 08:48 PM

Quote from: deusvult on January 18, 2011, 02:44 AM
The word stealing and theft imply a "moral" wrong. What mean to say is in instances where one's absolute needs outweighs another's wants there is no moral problem with the acquisition of property that others deem theirs because of necessity. A truly socialist society in which all property is communal has never really worked out too well.

The problem with socialist societies is that the "absolute needs" soon become subjective and start to include things like education, a nanny for the kids, subsidized cola.

OP, the answer is yes. Without a doubt! And I'm not a zoologist, but I'm pretty sure one can find mutually beneficial, altruistic, selfish and spiteful acts in the realm of social insects.
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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #127 - January 20, 2011, 09:16 PM

Quote from: hairyimp on January 20, 2011, 12:32 AM
the moment you call these assumptions truths they do become non-negotiable to you, I like to think that I have felt the state that you are in and found myself helpless in front of questions where you begin to question reality.

Well, we wont know until someone makes an assumption and calls it truth. The point I wanted to make is that I think it’s entirely possible to establish moral absolutes. Or ‘near-enough-to-absolute’ for the die-hard philosophers or novelty philosophers who have yet to decide if 1+1=2.

Let’s be clear. On the rare occasions we manage to cut through the smokescreen of definition argument, intellectual masturbation, and stop chasing the flimsy phantom nothings that make up most philosophical questions, we are left with important issues yet to be resolved. We still have all the work to do. It appears we always overlook the pertinent problems we face. Philosophy can be more productive than this. It should also surrender ground more readily. The issues underlying the whole human morality and ethic debate I think can become as science, the same as other aspects of our universe have done and are doing, like cosmology, psychology, biology, evolution, the same way abiogenisis might conquer more philosophical ground, quantum physics might do - things like this I am confident will answer more and more questions about our nature, our purpose, our place in the universe. And they will unlock more questions hopefully.

Meanwhile, we can’t even agree if child rape or stoning for adultery is absolutely wrong. We have normally reasonable and intelligent people entertaining the idea that they are only sorta wrong, maybe wrong, sometimes wrong, subjectively wrong. Where is our head at? What year is this? What century?

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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #128 - January 20, 2011, 09:56 PM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on January 20, 2011, 12:33 AM
How intriguing. Because the only part of his work from which I dissent is the chapter on abortion though I daresay for reasons different from yours. What do you understand to be his view and why do you part company from him? You might teach me something.

These things are not people. It's entirely down to the mother if these things become people or not, knowingly or not, thats where the choice should lay. A choice resting solely on the mother, based completely on her capability, her means, her circumstance, her physical/mental/psychological willing, a choice to be made in the specific moment and situation she is in, case by case. These should be the only things taken into consideration. The issue shouldn’t be based on if the status of an embryo or foetus or if it has rights or not. Women who abort embryos are not affecting the rights of another living human - they are just people who due to whole number of different circumstances, finances, pressures, tragedies, drunken mistakes, broken condoms, or for whatever reason, are not ready to or not capable of growing a potential being inside herself, or in a position to eventually squeeze another screaming brat out into this overpopulated world.

I smoke, I drink, I poison my body every weekend. I eat meat and wear leather. I would be a fucking hypocrite to lecture anyone on what they do with their own flesh, when every day I am playing Russian roulette with my own and I’m responsible for wholesale slaughter of life, life much more aware, much more alive and vital than an unformed human embryo. I eat babies. I wear the skins of living beings. So much life has died to keep me cosy and warm, and my life is cushy, so much life has been destroyed just so I am able to sit here comfortably and post on a forum.

This does trickle into his ideas about euthanasia and infanticide, as well as his work on animal rights, and I’ll have to explore it more. I’m not entirely sure where I stand on infanticide in cases of extreme disability. I can accept his argument that it is humane in some cases to end human suffering by ending life, and I agree wholeheartedly on crucial points, but his writing on the subject still isn’t entirely sitting right with me. I need to understand more of his key arguments and his ethical models where killing in principle is concerned before I can judge. I have not yet sat down and fully read his main book. It’s on my to-do list.

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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #129 - January 21, 2011, 09:36 PM

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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #130 - January 21, 2011, 10:09 PM

@Mount A Bison:
I agree with you.
Just one question: if 10 minutes before delivery, it is discovered that the foetus has a major disability and the mother decides she wants an abortion, would you support it?

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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #131 - January 21, 2011, 10:56 PM

Yes! That's a real tricky one!

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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #132 - January 21, 2011, 11:02 PM

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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #133 - January 22, 2011, 12:30 AM

That was a great backhand return, Mount A Bison.
Again, I agree with you.
Just one more question (or forehand return, if you like ):
You say in the following quote:
Quote from: Mount A Bison on January 21, 2011, 11:02 PM
If as the hypotheical suggests that the baby is so congenitally deformed as to render a meaningful life null and void, and if the woman does not want to keep it, the more humane route to ending its life might be infanticide than abortion, that is to say to deliver the baby and if its future prospects seem dim to administer it a lethal injection.

If the woman does not want to keep it, and no other woman will look after it, should the state pay for it to be looked after?

"Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #134 - January 22, 2011, 01:06 AM

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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #135 - January 22, 2011, 01:15 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on January 22, 2011, 01:06 AM
Comes now my question for you: Do you think a woman should be allowed to have a termination because her pregnancy disrupts a planned skiing trip in the Alps?

THE ANSWER IS: A BIG NO.

But you never know with some of your beloved 'feministas',fattened on an obscenely rich diet of entitlements, who might surprise you with a YES!

The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
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Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #136 - January 22, 2011, 01:20 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on January 22, 2011, 01:06 AM
Do you think a woman should be allowed to have a termination because her pregnancy disrupts a planned skiing trip in the Alps?

Hmm.. interesting. My answer would be a "no" if the abortion is after the cerebral cortex is fully formed. But I'd love to know Peter Singer's reasoning behind his abortion-on-demand views. Plus, what deranged dead cat would sacrifice an unborn baby for a trip to the Alps? Tell me, my sweet.

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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #137 - January 22, 2011, 01:24 AM

@ateapot :What if this guy's mother had got rid off him? At times we become too arrogantly certain about our decisions in life. This is my tribute to his mother! This world needs a lot of her kind!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAf5_i52V48

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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #138 - January 22, 2011, 01:27 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBLuRDqu584&feature=related

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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #139 - January 22, 2011, 01:30 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc4HGQHgeFE&feature=related

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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #140 - January 22, 2011, 03:08 AM

Quote from: hypocrucifier on January 22, 2011, 01:24 AM
@ateapot :What if this guy's mother had got rid off him?

His mother does deserve a lot of praise and respect. And the man is very inspirational. However, statements like "What if this guy's mother had got rid off him", to me are fallacious, but I get the positive and hopeful spirit in which you write it.

"Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #141 - January 22, 2011, 11:15 PM

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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #142 - January 22, 2011, 11:29 PM

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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #143 - January 23, 2011, 09:38 PM

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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #144 - January 23, 2011, 09:39 PM

MAB! That work by Will Durant was the first philosophy I ever read as a teen, and it made me fall in love with the whole damn thing.

At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #145 - January 23, 2011, 10:02 PM

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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #146 - January 28, 2011, 11:35 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on January 20, 2011, 08:15 PM
@Hypo

I missed your post. Peter Singer's take on the undying war between market economy and directed economy, while of some interest, does not tickle my curiosity so much as his iconoclastic views in bioethics. A thousand men rage across the political landscape inflicting their half-baked, semi-baked, quarter-baked economics on the public. We don't need another. Nevertheless, I don't think Singer may be accurately described as a free marketeer. His politics are thirty miles to the left of most.

The man's essentially a redistributionist of the social democratic variety, a view propogated in his diverting book A Darwinian Left among others. He's something of an expert on K Marx, writing a Penguin's introduction to the life and work of the heavily bearded Hebrew. All very charming no doubt, but not quite as gripping as Rethinking Life & Death. I dumped a beauty over that book. A rabid anti-Singer she was. A stupid mistake really because I've never wrapped my tongue around another set of perky nipples like those again. Putting ideology ahead of the flesh: A Fool's Error. May the Devil forgive me. Endeavour to procure that work. Blew my hair right back.

Yep! thanks, you do have very good taste in books. This is not to belittle your other tastes mind you!
Will Durant was a colossus . I didn't know that he dabbled in philosophy.
He debunked the myth of Islam being 'a religion of peace' for me.Thanks again!
Mansion of philosophy was republished with another name,did you read that or the original work?

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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #147 - January 28, 2011, 11:55 AM

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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #148 - January 28, 2011, 12:37 PM

Thank you for all the references!

The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
Thomas Paine

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
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Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
Reply #149 - February 16, 2011, 06:01 PM

Oh, I forgot about this thread.

MAB: I can't find fault with anything you said really.

I’m with you on the pain. But don't play-down biology. Biology can be sexy. Touch, warmth, moisture, friction, energy, endurance, hot chemical romance, pleasure, pain, sensation. It’s no longer a philosophical or moral question if you want to approach it your way, it‘s biological science. The only way you can conclude when a foetus feels pain is by deciding with scientific precision.

For the record, I don’t have to stretch my mind much to conclude that other animals feel pain in much the same way we do. They show us often enough.

Quote from: Mount A Bison on January 21, 2011, 09:36 PM
Let me venture a question: Do you think a woman should be granted a termination if she decides ten seconds before delivery that she’s not so keen on having a baby afterall? Granted it would take a very curious kind of doctor who would perform such an operation, and of course most abortions (if any) never do reach that stage, but for the sake of argument should that ever comes to pass, do you support a termination at such a late hour of the day or does the baby (for that is unmistakably now what the living thing is) enjoy rights of protection it did not before?

It’s irrelevant. At that stage of prenatal development, a foetus can survive outside the womb without much complication at all.

If you mean purely as an ethical dilemma and to Hell with all of science and all other perfectly reasonable options, then: No. By that point it’s a full-term human baby, not a foetus. We are no longer questioning abortion at this point - it’s infanticide, with case-by-case options to take into account. All options must be exhausted. Regardless, that baby is coming out - whether the woman likes it or not, whether she wants to help it along or not.

Also, there is a point where we don’t need a scientist, or ethicist, or judge, or an expert of any field to tell us something so self-evident. We just need a reasonably developed brain, the capacity to ‘hazard a guess,' a pair of eyes in our head, and at least a superficial interest in human well-being. If we still need someone to instruct us on things like this we are not even evolving. If we cannot see the glaring obvious in such cases, we are not even fit to confront ethical issues, at all, and should probably consult a neurologist. Hell, at that point, we could almost ask the actual baby to contribute an opinion on what its fate ought to be.

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