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Theme Changer

 Topic: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans

 (Read 27170 times)
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  • Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
     Reply #150 - February 16, 2011, 06:39 PM

    u
  • Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
     Reply #151 - February 16, 2011, 07:06 PM

    @Ishina

    The gestational moment at which one determines that a foetus evolves a brain capable of registering pain is a biological question true enough, but that would tell us nothing about whether to proceed with a termination is ethical. Science cannot adjudicate morality for morality is a question of competing interests. Otherwise there would be no ethical dilemma.

    Both the pregnant woman and the foetus endure suffering. How can science decide whose interests should be accorded greater moral consideration? Such a task requires human empathy and compassion, a quality of which science is destitute. Glance at my rejoinder to Teapot on more about the suffering inherent in carrying a pregnancy to full term.


    I thought the gist of what you were saying is that your view on abortion is essentially based on if an entity has the capacity to feel pain. How are you defining pain? The ability of an organism to react to outside stimulus, physical damage or physical system breakdown? Or the ability of an entity to interpret and understand damage, and feel pain, and suffer?

    Just because an organism has the equipment to register sensation and the biological trigger mechanisms to react to outside stimulus, does not mean this equipment is developed enough, or wired up yet, connected, or that the trigger reaction is a conscious one. Some (all?) biological phenomenon are nothing more than algorithms. At what point does an algorithm become consciously willed or a mindful response?

    Philisophy has conquered little ground on this, in all the days of its life. In stark contrast to modern science - revolutionary ways they treat burns victims, for example. The most painful thing for burns victims, apart from the initial trauma, is the daily changing of dressings and learning to move limbs again. I was watching a program a short while ago where they had this guy hooked up to a virtual reality unit, playing computer games, completely oblivious to the doctors changing his dressings, which on previous days was unbearable agony for him. They had reduced his apparant agony to an entirely emotional and psychological reaction based on the visual cues, the anxiety inspired by the daily ordeal, the foreknowledge of the trauma to come.

    Modern ideas shed some interesting light on the differences between a premature baby and a full-term baby, and the difference to an adult, in the way we process and react to pain. There is everything to suggest pain reaction is a learned behaviour, and that it is essentially a psychological reaction, or more to the point, an over-reaction to extreme physical stimulus. A sense of pain is learned by piggybacking onto our developing pathways as we are fine-tuning tactile touch. This is why the physical and psychological response varies so much from person to person.

    Nor do I think that terminating a late term abortion at the point at which a feotus is viable is technically infanticide. The distinction between abortion and infanticide is, like much else in life, completely arbitrary, but my understanding is that infanticide is terminating life outside the womb, no?


    Well, they wouldn't be killing it in the womb at that late stage. So it becomes infanticide. Unless, resigned to it being unworthy of life, the doctor cuts corners and pulls it out, killing it in the process. Not that I'm an expert. I might be wrong. But it's such an extreme hypothetical circumstance and I doubt it has ever actually happened.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
     Reply #152 - February 16, 2011, 07:15 PM

    @Ishina

    I forgot something. If you're wearied by the semantic maze of philosophy grab hold of the work of the infinitely wise Will Durant. Have you read him? Trained as a professional philosopher, he was another who threw up his hands in exasperation at the labyrinth of epistemology. Pedantic trifles had colonised the pressing question of how men should live. Philosophy as the art of the nugatory. He wrote a beautiful work called the Story of Philosophy in which he breathed new vitality into its carcass, the best exposition of what minds across the ages have thought about the life well lived, about politics, about ethics, about everything under the sun. Unbeatable.



    I picked up Story of Philosophy on this recommendation, I'm two thirds of the way through and I absolutely love it.  grin12
  • Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
     Reply #153 - February 16, 2011, 07:38 PM

    w
  • Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
     Reply #154 - February 16, 2011, 07:44 PM

    p
  • Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
     Reply #155 - February 16, 2011, 07:47 PM

    I finished the chapter on Schopenhauer, I think that was the most enlightening chapter in the book so far. I have felt rather awesome since then. I have absolutely no idea why. Perhaps you could help me out here.  wacko
  • Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
     Reply #156 - February 16, 2011, 07:50 PM

    I'm still on the preface.  grin12

    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
     Reply #157 - February 16, 2011, 07:54 PM

    Well, no contention really. My ideas on abortion are already firmly entrenched alongside women's reproductive rights. I'm just exploring your ideas. Scouting them out, seeing if I'll take them for myself.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
     Reply #158 - February 16, 2011, 07:59 PM

    I finished the chapter on Schopenhauer, I think that was the most enlightening chapter in the book so far. I have felt rather awesome since then. I have absolutely no idea why. Perhaps you could help me out here.  wacko

    I have got a copy of it based on z10s recommendation, but its just sitting there.  Its 547 pages long right -  Or is there a concise version?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
     Reply #159 - February 16, 2011, 08:03 PM

    i
  • Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
     Reply #160 - February 16, 2011, 08:03 PM

    I have got a copy of it based on z10s recommendation, but its just sitting there.  Its 547 pages long right -  Or is there a concise version?


    That is the concise version.
  • Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
     Reply #161 - February 16, 2011, 08:10 PM

    p
  • Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
     Reply #162 - February 16, 2011, 08:19 PM

    That is the concise version.

    Not sure if I will ever get round to reading it but I want to.  Do you have a favourite page that might motivate  & kickstart my interest to read it?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
     Reply #163 - February 16, 2011, 08:35 PM

    The introduction really whetted my appetite for the book. I think you need to have at least thought about the concepts dealt with in the book to really enjoy it.
  • Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
     Reply #164 - February 16, 2011, 08:39 PM

    Taking the example of food if we know it is the only food left for survival we will go ahead and steal it.


    Frankly, I like to believe that a moral person with a sound sense of integrity would rather die than steal another person's food (provided of course there's extreme scarcity).

    I hope I'm never put to the test though.
  • Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
     Reply #165 - February 16, 2011, 08:41 PM

    o
  • Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
     Reply #166 - February 16, 2011, 08:57 PM

    You might do well to ignore Prince and get cracking with the chapter on Schopenhauer. No previous knowledge is required. Just a healthy interest in ideas.

    ok, will try & give it a go this week

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
     Reply #167 - February 16, 2011, 10:27 PM

    My fave though is an out of print work known as The Mansions of Philosophy. Its preface rails against the dictatorship of epistemology and devotes the rest of the book to real life questions. Grab a copy if you can. Simply genius.


    Ok I have downloaded this... what exactly is it... looks like Durant's personal outlook on life, ethics and the like.
  • Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
     Reply #168 - February 17, 2011, 03:57 PM

    le suff.
  • Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
     Reply #169 - February 17, 2011, 04:17 PM

    The word stealing and theft imply a "moral" wrong.  What mean to say is in instances where one's absolute needs outweighs another's wants there is no moral problem with the acquisition of property that others deem theirs because of necessity.  A truly socialist society in which all property is communal has never really worked out too well.  Humans seem to have an irreconcilable desire to a right of some kind of private property or more adequately stated human beings ( as a whole) seem to have a desire to claim some things, usually outputs of their labor as theirs initially or things that have sentimental value.  The idea of private property has never and it seems can never be fully abolished without a radical change in human nature. 


    There has never existed such a socialist society where there was no private property. What are you talking about?


    What about what Marx called "primitive communism"-- hunter-gatherer societies? Many of those seem almost entirely collective and some have existed for thousands of years.

    I think the problem my be partially grounded in human nature, but is more grounded in the advent of social specialization as society advances making an organically self-regulating economy (be it "communist" or "free-market") increasingly difficult to maintain.

    Oh, and for the record, it should probably be noted that most Marxists make a distinction between "private" and "personal" property (private property specifically referring to capital and the means of production), but people here seem to be using the terms interchangeably.

    fuck you
  • Re: Do some survival instincts conflict with Social Evolution of Humans
     Reply #170 - February 23, 2011, 06:11 AM

    People here probably don't make the distinction, because they are not Marxist and don't use the paradigm. If they have a factory or a pair of underwear in a capitalist society it's still their private property.

    Hunter gatherers did not own spears and bows and bear hide shorts and tents? I find it hard to believe. What have they written about their economy that made Marx realize they were communist? Is it only because they did not leave any meat and berries' processing plants? I don't know a lot about Marx, maybe he was right.


    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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