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Theme Changer

 Topic: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex

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  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #90 - January 10, 2011, 02:50 PM

    This could grow into a huge problem with obvious knock on effects for society in general if it is not tackled from within the community concerned. I think that that community has been accurately identified and , with help, they have to come up with a comprehensive strategy to deal with it.
    This is just my opinion so you can take it or leave it: the aim has to be full integration, not more of the failed multi-culturalism of recent years.
     The Muslim community has to open itself up to intermarriage for both males and females (lets leave other closed cultural subsets for the time being and concentrate on this one). Ideas of what is considered honourable and what is not need to be re-evaluated - eg It is not an honourable thing to murder your own children for any reason. The intermarriage of close relatives is not a healthy habit.
    The progressive nature of British society would be better supported by a lesser reliance upon foreign conservative 'holymen' whose only qualifications are in 'being holy'. Human Rights, as expressed in the EU declaration supersede any religious assertions to the contrary. There is only one Law and that is the Queen's Law, not Sharia or any other impostor.
    Do any of you remember the major troubles in London involving Jamaican Yardie gangs. Police forces dealing with the bloody frontline eventually went to Jamaica for advice on how to defeat them. They were much more trouble than the local manor type gangs.   It would be no good sending British police to Pakistan to find out how to deal with grooming gangs, now would it.  It's a home grown problem with national scope that demands a home grown national response.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #91 - January 10, 2011, 03:19 PM

    One white woman from Bradford who was repeatedly raped by a Muslim pimp recalled: “He told me I was making him do it because I was sinful, not a true believer, that he would not do it if I was a Muslim.”
    FULL ARTICLE

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #92 - January 10, 2011, 04:04 PM

    I don't think your sensationalist slavering is adding to genuine debate here, DH.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #93 - January 10, 2011, 04:24 PM

    Quote from: sojournerlumus
    I don't think your sensationalist slavering is adding to genuine debate here, DH.


    If anybody is "slavering" it is the author of the article I posted. Is there anything you would like to take issue with in what he has written? Or by "debate" do you mean joining with you in dismissing out of hand any suggestion that all is NOT for the best in the best of all possible worlds in multicultural Britain?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #94 - January 10, 2011, 05:12 PM

    Still trolling, EH?  I'm going to have to put you on the Naughty Step again.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #95 - January 10, 2011, 06:03 PM


    I don't know much about the sikh and hindu religions, but I get the impression that Islam instils a mind set that has men thinking that it is the women's fault for attracting unwanted attention? Even if the lads are not that religiously motivated. Couple this with Britains binge drinking, and drugs culture in young people, especially in very poor communities?

    Also, I can't be sure of this, but in my experience with Muslim Asians and Sikh/Hindu Asians, working along side them, is that Muslims tend to socialise together, where as Sikh/Hindus are just as much up for hanging out with anyone on a night out as any other British culture. So there is a more segregated British Pakistani culture, also, Is there a separation of the sexes culture in Hinduism/Sikhism? If not then men and women from those back grounds feel natural hanging out around each other. Which is where i get the idea that Muslim Pakistanis don't really understand that there are certain lines that we draw even when we are at our heights of debauchery. Don't we learn our social customs? They perhaps don't compute the idea of vulnerable British women, that usually feels safe letting her hair down around young men, and just see it as women enticing men, knowing what they are doing. And Islam tells them it's not up to them to act responsibly in this situation.

    I know what I'm saying is very vague, but i think this problem is a subtle mentality problem, that involves a lot of areas of young British Pakistani culture, that is lacking in Hindu and Sikh British culture, i just don't feel that these guys are doing this specifically in the name of Islam, but I do think Islam is a factor.
  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #96 - January 10, 2011, 06:19 PM

    I agree there is no point in going to Pakistan, this is a British problem, and i also think that what is needed is for us to integrate these communities into British culture, although saying that the Muslims community has to do anything, like open up to multi racial marriage, is easier said than done, i wouldn't even have the foggiest clue how to encourage integration.
  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #97 - January 11, 2011, 01:23 PM

    jack straw is ok in my book. he's not a racist. but i think this thread is what i would call a 'tabloid thread'.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #98 - January 12, 2011, 05:41 AM

    Quote from: michelle
    I don't know much about the sikh and hindu religions, but I get the impression that Islam instils a mind set that has men thinking that it is the women's fault for attracting unwanted attention?


    Yes. The Koran also tells Muslim men that they have a god given right to take captive women for sex. Unfortunately much our media and political establishment sees it as its duty to downplay the ISLAMIC roots of such offenses.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #99 - January 12, 2011, 11:37 AM


    This issue is to do with a sub-culture amongst Pakistani men in very specific places.

    Its not happening in London or the south. Apart from one incident in Derby it isn't happening in the Midlands. So the question is why is it happening in the milltowns of Lancashire and Yorkshire. Why are Pakistani / Muslim men not organising crimes like this outside these towns and regions?

    Religious attitude probably does have something to do with it, in as much as non Muslim girls can be seen as un-chaste and thus fair game for sexual advance, but it can't simply be about that.

    There is something about the northern milltowns and the interplay between a very harsh, unforgiving, insular culture rooted in rural Pakistan (Mirpur) and the social reality of these towns, with a morality being formed that is perverse and stunted, and with individuals engaging in group think that orders the world along the lines of it being acceptable to groom and then abuse sexually vulnerable girls. The fact that the girls are not from 'the tribe', without value because of that, is justification for that abuse.

    And remember - this is not an issue of women being abused - these are CHILDREN who are the victims of these gangs.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #100 - January 12, 2011, 11:47 AM

    And I don't think qman was trying to take the blame away from the rapists but he does have a point about the parents.


    Many of the girls don't have parents, they are in care and from broken homes. And the primary responsibility for any child being raped or sexually abused is always the rapist and sexual abuser.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #101 - January 12, 2011, 11:52 AM

    What I have been saying is that it is ignorant and racist to say Pakistanis see white women as meat.  It blankets every Pakistani. A more nuanced and probably factually true statement is that the idea of identity superiority or religious superiority is leading men to believe that people, mostly women not of their religion as less than human in terms of sexual equality.  Now that is the PC way of saying Islamic supremism is treating non Muslim women as less than human just as racial  and national supremism did before it.  


    Alot of truth in that, but there are other elements to it as well. Its very specific in location and in profile of the offenders. Islamic supremacist ideas and misogyny play a role, but those things apply elsewhere, and this same kind of crime does not occur, for example, in east London.

    Its complex.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #102 - January 12, 2011, 12:08 PM


    One other thing - cousin marriage is very high in the Pakistani communities in the milltowns of Lancashire and Yorkshire, rooted in the social structures of rural Mirpur. This can lead to an incredibly clannish, insular outlook. It basically heightens attitudes towards 'the other'. For those who carry out these crimes, when you view even people outside your family-cousin tree as being outsiders, multiply that to the power of about a million when you talk about people of different religions and ethnicities. Also, close knit social structures mean that victims can be 'passed along' for abuse with a code-of-silence being observed as a matter of basic assumption. The localised nature of the cases suggests that the abuse occurs within particular circles. Islamic attitudes may have much to do with this, but this is not a phenomenon that occurs amongst Muslims or Pakistanis outside of these specific towns, nothing in London or Birmingham.

    The reluctance of police, social agencies and the media to discuss this because of the incendiary nature of it has probably also meant there has been a failure to discuss the issues. Just yesterday some more men in Rochdale were arrested for the same offence. Its for the best that this is being addressed now, its been going on for years. Also important to note that Pakistani men like the social workers of the Ramadhan Foundation based in (I think) Oldham have been at the forefront of raising this issue and confronting it.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #103 - January 12, 2011, 12:13 PM

    I'm terribly sorry if I've offended you personally, Hassan. It certainly wasn't aimed at you. I just used your quote to make a point but indirectly - a bit clumsy of me. Again, sorry.
     But it certainly seems that some of the exact cultural background are in denial or seem to be annoyed that the link has been made and my remarks are aimed at them.
     The police, social workers and rescue/support workers dealing with it have been alarmed about it's growing prevalence since about 2003, sufficient for Ann Cryer MP to be the first to put her above the parapet and spell it out at that time.  So far, they've concentrated on picking up the pieces or helping vulnerable girls, some as young as 11,  to avoid predation and side stepped the aggressive tackling of the problem, head on in the community involved, in the interests of multi-cultural 'harmony'.  Well, it hasn't worked and I now think we're about to see a sea change.
    The problem should be tackled by stepping up efforts to apply social pressure from people who should have been trying to keep Pakistani youth out of trouble instead of turning a blind eye or sticking their heads in the sand. They've let down their/our young people badly by clinging to religious and cultural conservative isolationism instead of adopting the host cultural mores.
    I think it had to be left until the offending pattern had been repeated enough times, in enough towns and cities, to be regarded as an observable, well documented phenomenon by several agencies in order that wild accusations were not made.  The nature of this kind of crime is obviously deeply offensive to the host community and I think it's been handled very well in the circumstances.  It's no good living in Lalaland.

    As for the assertions I made: these come from a drip feed of reports over the years on this issue. The courts are now dealing with several cases per year. I can remember one sentencing report in a case where the males of Pakistani heritage involved ranged from 15 yrs old to 48 years old - that's 3 generations. There's something complicit at work here more than pure criminality and paedophilia.


    Good post. The reluctance to address the issue did come from a fear of stereotyping and because of the incendiary nature of it all, but its got to the stage now where not addressing it is worse than the alternative of brushing it under the carpet.

    What do you think of the localisation aspect of it? That its almost exclusively, bar the one case in Derby, happening in the milltowns?




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #104 - January 12, 2011, 12:21 PM

    jack straw is ok in my book. he's not a racist. but i think this thread is what i would call a 'tabloid thread'.


    In my opinion this issue has to be handled with utmost care because it is so potentially incendiary. The facts are that a certain kind of abuse is taking place that might be influenced by religio-cultural factors, but the other fact is that its only a tiny minority who do this, and most Pakistani Muslims are utterly repelled and disgusted by it. Its also very localised. It doesn't happen down south or in the midlands. There's something specific about those milltowns and a certain social milieu that keeps reappearing.

    This is an article written by Julie Bindel in the Times in 2007. I'd say its a vital read on the issue.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2538090.ece




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #105 - January 12, 2011, 12:35 PM

    I think perhaps a big issue yes is the fact that the different communities do not mix and if these milltowns were still industrialised they would mix a great deal because they would be working together every day. Because of decline and such like things there are no jobs so the communities thus do not mix as they are not forced to because of the economic conditions surrounding the areas involved, this and the fact that they are not forced to accept any work because of the benefits system does not help.

    In conclusion then I think it is a mix of social and economic decline in the area, strong community links in the Mirpuri communities there indeed a tribal nature within families against those who are not Mirpuri, Muslim etc and also Islamic facist ideology.
  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #106 - January 12, 2011, 01:18 PM

    In my opinion this issue has to be handled with utmost care because it is so potentially incendiary. The facts are that a certain kind of abuse is taking place that might be influenced by religio-cultural factors, but the other fact is that its only a tiny minority who do this, and most Pakistani Muslims are utterly repelled and disgusted by it. Its also very localised. It doesn't happen down south or in the midlands. There's something specific about those milltowns and a certain social milieu that keeps reappearing.

    This is an article written by Julie Bindel in the Times in 2007. I'd say its a vital read on the issue.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2538090.ece

    billy is my emeritus Poster of the Month every month. Afro

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #107 - January 12, 2011, 01:36 PM


    I humbly accept you as a student  Afro



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #108 - January 12, 2011, 02:35 PM

    Also important to note that Pakistani men like the social workers of the Ramadhan Foundation based in (I think) Oldham have been at the forefront of raising this issue and confronting it.

    I hate to say it but the BNP have been at the forefront of raising this issue and when they did so several years ago the authorities should've taken it a lot more seriously and made the kinda arrests they're making now.

    .
  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #109 - January 12, 2011, 02:42 PM

    Good post. The reluctance to address the issue did come from a fear of stereotyping and because of the incendiary nature of it all, but its got to the stage now where not addressing it is worse than the alternative of brushing it under the carpet.

    What do you think of the localisation aspect of it? That its almost exclusively, bar the one case in Derby, happening in the milltowns?





    I think the real problem is that we have effectively two Englands and one of them is a transplant , lock, stock and barrel Pakistani England across the ex Cotton Belt in the North of England (Bradistan, I've seen some of you refer to it as).
    It may have been the ingrained racism of certain social groups in England coupled with the concerns of the English working class around the importation of cheap foreign labour and the erosion of their assumed entitlement to those jobs that started the ghettoisation of the early Pakistani immigrants. This is closely tied in with the ability, at that time (1960s mainly), to be able to afford only the cheapest and worst housing; that and being Muslim and espousing an archaic tribalistic social structure. So we had whole areas where English moved out and Pakistanis moved in, the establishment of Mosques and the consolidation of local 'area identities' soon followed.
    This , in turn, allowed non English-speaking Pakistani immigrants to function, on a daily basis, cocooned within their own kind,  without the trouble of becoming Anglicised. Today we take satellite TV and the internet for granted but it all serves to isolate peoples as well as to integrate. I should hazard a guess that some within the Pakistani community have more social intercourse with friends and relatives in Pakistan than they do with any indigenous English.  This has effectively led to a state within a state and the concomitant establishment of Muslim organisations (Muslim parliament, Islamic centres, Islamic banks, etc) and calls for Sharia Law to further separate immigrant from host community.  Indeed there appears to some extremist Muslims a desire to overthrow the British establishment and replace it with an Islamic Republic.

    Contrast this with the integration of the first mass black immigration from the Caribbean. After the steam had escaped from the initial racial hatred the indigenous population have come to admire their achievement in becoming fully integrated and now applauds their accomplishments as 'our' accomplishments. Their desire to become fully functioning Brits has been achieved in grand style and they have been accepted in the same spirit.
    This has in part been achieved by following the same broad Christianity  and by intermarriage, the most sincere form of acceptance as 'one of us'.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #110 - January 12, 2011, 03:06 PM

    Sojourn. I agree totally, thus why I said my thing of there being no forced mixing such as in the workplace with different cultures than the Pakistani one, this I think because of a lack of motivation generally to work even for a pittance and the support of this underclass by the benefits system, in my opinion in this case a little bit of hardship felt by both the White and Asian underclasses would force them to work and to work together and then a dialogue might happen and an exchange of ideas.
  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #111 - January 12, 2011, 03:23 PM

    I hate to say it but the BNP have been at the forefront of raising this issue and when they did so several years ago the authorities should've taken it a lot more seriously and made the kinda arrests they're making now.


    Well, the BNP raised the issue back in the day, but they did so to 'prove' their own racist agenda, not to help the girls who were suffering. In 2004 Channel 4 did a documentary on it, and after protests by some I believe they postponed showing it - which all just fed into the BNP agenda that a liberal media was censoring the truth and they were the only ones to speak up for the white people of the northern milltowns - a perfect own goal, and another reason why brushing things under the carpet can actually make things worse in the long run.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #112 - January 12, 2011, 03:27 PM

    I think the real problem is that we have effectively two Englands and one of them is a transplant , lock, stock and barrel Pakistani England across the ex Cotton Belt in the North of England (Bradistan, I've seen some of you refer to it as).


    The thing is, there are large Pakistani communities living in inner cities in the south of England, in London and the midlands too, and this kind of crime is not reported there. Maybe its the intensity of the social dynamics in those towns in the north. Something is malfunctioning there, specifically in that geography.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #113 - January 12, 2011, 03:34 PM

    Sojourn. I agree totally, thus why I said my thing of there being no forced mixing such as in the workplace with different cultures than the Pakistani one, this I think because of a lack of motivation generally to work even for a pittance and the support of this underclass by the benefits system, in my opinion in this case a little bit of hardship felt by both the White and Asian underclasses would force them to work and to work together and then a dialogue might happen and an exchange of ideas.


    Yeah, eviscerating the welfare system will lead to racial harmony. So, Lilyesque, what do your parents do for work?

    fuck you
  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #114 - January 12, 2011, 03:36 PM

    Q-man, I'm not advocating getting rid of the welfare system completely just make people work for it no matter what they are doing, perhaps make people litter pick for that money.
  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #115 - January 12, 2011, 03:37 PM

    @ Lilyesque:
    Well, I kind of agree Lily but if it's not done very, very carefully it can just as easily turn to riots as happened in Toxteth. If people are forced to come in close proximity by ill-circumstance, that's not the same as volunteering. Something has to happen to make people want to come together and that usually involves some sort of mutually beneficial exchange.
     Force always begets force.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #116 - January 12, 2011, 03:40 PM

    I would agree with you there but you have to decide on a course of action, you can only hope it turns out well.
  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #117 - January 12, 2011, 03:43 PM

    The thing is, there are large Pakistani communities living in inner cities in the south of England, in London and the midlands too, and this kind of crime is not reported there. Maybe its the intensity of the social dynamics in those towns in the north. Something is malfunctioning there, specifically in that geography.



    Economic circumstance always underscores the character of a place.  Money's always been too tight to mention up North. If people feel hard done by their circumstances they circle the wagons. They also start scape-goating the easiest target.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #118 - January 12, 2011, 03:53 PM

    Q-man, I'm not advocating getting rid of the welfare system completely just make people work for it no matter what they are doing, perhaps make people litter pick for that money.


    Even mothers and the disabled?

    @ Lilyesque:
    Well, I kind of agree Lily but if it's not done very, very carefully it can just as easily turn to riots as happened in Toxteth. If people are forced to come in close proximity by ill-circumstance, that's not the same as volunteering. Something has to happen to make people want to come together and that usually involves some sort of mutually beneficial exchange.
     Force always begets force.


    Toxteth was a rebellion against the police. Your country could use more of that.

    fuck you
  • Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
     Reply #119 - January 12, 2011, 04:03 PM

    Quote
    Economic circumstance always underscores the character of a place.  Money's always been too tight to mention up North. If people feel hard done by their circumstances they circle the wagons. They also start scape-goating the easiest target.


    I'm not sure I believe that totally. Manchester around which the Lancashire milltowns circle is vibrant economically, Leeds in Yorkshire is a dynamic city. Its not the days of George Orwell writing The Road to Wigan Pier.

    Its bothering me alot, because the entrenchment and self segregation seen up north is much worse than elsewhere. The midlands has Pakistani / Muslim ghettoes, but at least as far as I can tell, this is not happening there. Some other dysfunction is at play.

    I think that the many factors and issues that have been pointed out, come together to form a perfect storm in the particular social context of these small milltowns (including the lack of an economy vibrant enough to force people out of their segregated lives), factors that are mitigated or nullified or adjusted elsewhere.
     

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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