Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex

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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #180 - January 14, 2011, 03:15 PM

Quote from: sojournerlumus on January 14, 2011, 03:06 PM
Don't forget the (so called) honour and dowry killings and maimings in Hindu societies. It all points to an extra vicious kind of Misogyny emanating from the Sub-continent.

Misogyny is a whole separate issue to this one of child grooming, and is partly to do with it being a thirld world poverty stricken & underdeveloped society. Similar tribal & misogyny issues occur in Africa and other thirld world countries.

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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #181 - January 14, 2011, 03:17 PM

@ Islame Yes, That was true of the Pakistanis who were the first immigrant group to work in the steelworks of Scunthorpe in the 50s and 60s. They kept themselves to themselves and sent all the money home until their families could afford to come across too.
I think I told you before about Mr Uddin who wanted me to take afternoon tea with them ... and meet his daughter?
Strange how history repeats itself: my daughter who was at Uni 20 years ago omly just told me recently that she was similarly vetted and approved by Xs parents. He is of NWF muslim origins and was one of her best friends at college. The thing is, his parents didn't realise he was gay at that time. Now they know, they turn a blind eye. Good on them.

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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #182 - January 14, 2011, 03:21 PM

Quote from: IsLame on January 14, 2011, 03:15 PM
Misogyny is a whole separate issue to this one of child grooming, and is partly to do with it being a thirld world poverty stricken & underdeveloped society. Similar tribal & misogyny issues occur in Africa and other thirld world countries.

I disagree. That worth- for-worth mind set is part of the whole problem.

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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #183 - January 14, 2011, 03:26 PM

Quote from: sojournerlumus on January 14, 2011, 03:17 PM
@ Islame Yes, That was true of the Pakistanis who were the first immigrant group to work in the steelworks of Scunthorpe in the 50s and 60s. They kept themselves to themselves and sent all the money home until their families could afford to come across too.

I dont understand your point, unless you are suggesting this was all part of a Master plan?

Quote
I think I told you before about Mr Uddin who wanted me to take afternoon tea with them ... and meet his daughter?
Strange how history repeats itself: my daughter who was at Uni 20 years ago omly just told me recently that she was similarly vetted and approved by Xs parents. He is of NWF muslim origins and was one of her best friends at college. The thing is, his parents didn't realise he was gay at that time. Now they know, they turn a blind eye. Good on them.

Your argument being?

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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #184 - January 14, 2011, 07:06 PM

Quote from: IsLame on January 14, 2011, 03:07 PM
The problem did not happen with first generation pakistani immigrants either. Probably because, like the Poles, the first generation were too busy working to care.

You're right about that. The first generation of Pakistanis were incredibly hard working nd resourceful and friendly, despite the racism they would sometimes experience.

But I don't even see it only as a generational issue. There is something about the localism of it, and the narrow profile of those convicted, that defeats easy explanation, despite it being clear the manifold factors involved.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #185 - January 14, 2011, 07:40 PM

Quote from: sojournerlumus on January 14, 2011, 03:06 PM
Don't forget the (so called) honour and dowry killings and maimings in Hindu societies. It all points to an extra vicious kind of Misogyny emanating from the Sub-continent.

But we're not seeing organised gangs of Hindus grooming underage girls in Leicester or Neasden. And we're not seeing it happening outside very narrow confines in terms of location and profile in these towns, or amongst wider Muslim communities.

The Home Office really should be interviewing and researching the convicted and put a paper together on this.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #186 - January 14, 2011, 08:08 PM

Quote from: Kenan on January 14, 2011, 03:12 PM
@MAB
Thanks for the article.

Owing to the fact I've done you a colossal favour, would you care to reciprocate? Nothing big. Can you jerk me off?

Quote from: billy on January 14, 2011, 02:16 PM
I read it already MAB, cheers for thinking to bring it to my attention though

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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #187 - January 14, 2011, 08:13 PM

Quote from: sojournerlumus on January 14, 2011, 03:06 PM
Don't forget the (so called) honour and dowry killings and maimings in Hindu societies. It all points to an extra vicious kind of Misogyny emanating from the Sub-continent.

Quote from: billy on January 14, 2011, 07:40 PM
But we're not seeing organised gangs of Hindus grooming underage girls in Leicester or Neasden. And we're not seeing it happening outside very narrow confines in terms of location and profile in these towns, or amongst wider Muslim communities.

The Home Office really should be interviewing and researching the convicted and put a paper together on this.

You are guilty of universal generalization here,sojournerlumus! Billy was more percipient here in noting that the truth or falsehood of what you said was not relevant to the topic under discussion here.
There are vicious misogynists everywhere, but fortunately they are the exception rather than the rule. Looks like they are extinct in Britain, congratulations!.
But let me assure you, even in your perceived 'vicious misogynist's paradise' the situation is not as bad as you make it out to be.

ETA: Would I be right in inferring that all British men are pedos because of the large number of British men who have been caught indulging in the act?

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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #188 - January 14, 2011, 08:34 PM

Quote from: IsLame on January 14, 2011, 03:26 PM
I dont understand your point, unless you are suggesting this was all part of a Master plan?
Your argument being?

What the heck are you on about? They're just comments about the life and times of. Historical observations that's all.

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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #189 - January 14, 2011, 08:38 PM

Quote from: billy on January 14, 2011, 07:40 PM
But we're not seeing organised gangs of Hindus grooming underage girls in Leicester or Neasden. And we're not seeing it happening outside very narrow confines in terms of location and profile in these towns, or amongst wider Muslim communities.

The Home Office really should be interviewing and researching the convicted and put a paper together on this.

No? We have seen Sikh girls killed by family and maimed by acid throwing.
And yes, research pretty pronto. But I'm sure that's taking place as we write.

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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #190 - January 14, 2011, 08:46 PM

Quote from: sojournerlumus on January 14, 2011, 08:38 PM
No?

No. I was talking specifically about this phenomena. The profile of the perpetrators is very specific, it is localised, and I have an inkling that if you research further the specific Pakistani ethnicity might be localised as well.

And although this may all well be influenced by Islamic value systems in interplay with other factors, its not a 'Muslim' problem, too simplistic to call it so. Something else operationalises abuse, other factors come into play to make this perfect storm of abusiveness.

Misogynistic violence is a reality in all parts of society, that goes without saying.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #191 - January 14, 2011, 08:58 PM

Quote from: Kenan on January 14, 2011, 03:12 PM
Some years back, a similar furore was raised over the Sierra Leonean journalist Sorious Samura, who made a TV documentary on the gang rape of young girls in British cities. Censured by the usual slate of apologists, he accepted that the attacks were carried out by men of all backgrounds, but pointed out that a high proportion were black or mixed-race. "As a black man as well as a journalist, I wanted to know what lay behind such attacks, the profoundly disturbing attitudes to females." [/i]

Cheers. I remember that documentary, there was some controversy about it at the time. In certain types of sexual crimes black men are over represented.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/articles/rape-in-the-city

As far as I'm aware, Pakistani or Muslim men are not overrepresented in sex offender units in proportion to their population. What is clear is that (statistically speaking and in general) white men commit certain kinds of sexual abuse, black men other kinds of abuse, Pakistani men in some parts of the country a different method or mode of abuse.

The reasons why this is so deserve to be investigated, but even if there are cultural or religious influences on attitudes and circumstances of the crimes that lead to these differentials, none of them indicate an increased preponderance to abuse by Pakistani / Muslim men overall.

Good to nip this and confront it head on so that people who want to suggest otherwise don't get the chance to do so.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #192 - January 14, 2011, 09:10 PM

Quote from: billy on January 14, 2011, 08:46 PM
And although this may all well be influenced by Islamic value systems in interplay with other factors, its not a 'Muslim' problem, too simplistic to call it so. Something else operationalises abuse, other factors come into play to make this perfect storm of abusiveness.

And that something else, like I pointed out is poorly educated, second generational muslim immigrants in numbers.

Can you think of any country where this kind of problem does not occur with this profile of immigrants? If you can then let me know, otherwise I am going to stick to my original premise

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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #193 - January 14, 2011, 09:14 PM

Quote from: billy on January 14, 2011, 08:46 PM
No. I was talking specifically about this phenomena. The profile of the perpetrators is very specific, it is localised, and I have an inkling that if you research further the specific Pakistani ethnicity might be localised as well.

And although this may all well be influenced by Islamic value systems in interplay with other factors, its not a 'Muslim' problem, too simplistic to call it so. Something else operationalises abuse, other factors come into play to make this perfect storm of abusiveness.

Misogynistic violence is a reality in all parts of society, that goes without saying.

Well, if the whole of the North of England is localised, you may have a point.
I concur with your second statement.
I agree with your third but in this specific set of circumstances both the perps and the victims come from well defined groups, so this expression of the problem may, to some extent, be tackled more easily.

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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #194 - January 14, 2011, 09:14 PM

Quote from: billy on January 14, 2011, 08:58 PM
The reasons why this is so deserve to be investigated, but even if there are cultural or religious influences on attitudes and circumstances of the crimes that lead to these differentials, none of them indicate an increased preponderance to abuse by Pakistani / Muslim men overall.

?

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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #195 - January 14, 2011, 09:23 PM

Quote from: IsLame on January 14, 2011, 09:10 PM
And that something else, like I pointed out is poorly educated, second generational muslim immigrants in numbers.

Can you think of any country where this kind of problem does not occur with this profile of immigrants? If you can then let me know, otherwise I am going to stick to my original premise

That may be a factor, but I don't think its nessecarily decisive.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #196 - January 14, 2011, 09:24 PM

Although I dont agree with this snippet from Understanding Muhammed by Sina lol, I agree with his argument on the determinants of these kind of problems : he sees it as a direct factor percentages & muslims too, without the need to break it down by region.

Quote
When politically correct and culturally diverse societies agree to 'the reasonable'
Muslim demands for their 'religious rights,' they also get the other components
under the table. Here's how it works (percentages source CIA: The World Fact
Book (2007)).

As long as the Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they
will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone. In
fact, they may be featured in articles and films, stereotyped for their colorful
uniqueness:
United States --1.0%; Australia --1.5%; Canada --1.9%; China --1%-2%; Italy --
1.5%; Norway --1.8%

At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and
disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs:
Denmark --2%; Germany --3.7%; United Kingdom --2.7%; Spain --4%; Thailand -
-4.6%

From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their
percentage of the population.
They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food,
thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure
on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves --along with threats for
failure to comply.
France --8%; Philippines --5%; Sweden --5%; Switzerland --4.3%; The
Netherlands --5.5%; Trinidad &Tobago --5.8%
At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule
themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islam is not to
convert the world but to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a
means of complaint about their conditions ( Paris --car-burnings). Any non-
Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats ( Amsterdam
-Mohammed cartoons).
Guyana --10%; India --13.4%; Israel --16%; Kenya --10%; Russia --10-15%

After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic
killings and church and synagogue burning:
Ethiopia --Muslim 32.8%

At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing
militia warfare:
Bosnia --40%; Chad --53.1%; Lebanon --59.7%

From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other
religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon
and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels:
Albania --70%; Malaysia --60.4%; Qatar --77.5%; Sudan --70%

After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide:

Bangladesh --83%; Egypt --90%; Gaza --98.7%; Indonesia --86.1%; Iran --98%;
Iraq --97%; Jordan --92%; Morocco --98.7%; Pakistan -97%; Palestine --99%;
Syria --90%; Tajikistan --90%; Turkey --99.8% United Arab Emirates --96%
100% will usher in the peace of 'Dar-es-Salaam' --the Islamic House of Peace --
there's supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim:

Afghanistan --100%; Saudi Arabia --100%; Somalia --100%; Yemen --99.9%
Of course, that's not the case. To satisfy their blood lust, Muslims then start
killing each other for a variety of reasons.

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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #197 - January 14, 2011, 09:25 PM

Quote from: billy on January 14, 2011, 09:23 PM
That may be a factor, but I don't think its nessecarily decisive.

Why not?

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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #198 - January 14, 2011, 09:26 PM

Quote from: IsLame on January 14, 2011, 09:14 PM
?

Why the question mark? Its important to state that, seeing as how there are people taking this and running with it.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #199 - January 14, 2011, 09:27 PM

I didnt understand what it said, can you rephrase?

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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #200 - January 14, 2011, 09:27 PM

Quote from: billy on January 14, 2011, 08:58 PM
Cheers. I remember that documentary, there was some controversy about it at the time. In certain types of sexual crimes black men are over represented.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/articles/rape-in-the-city

As far as I'm aware, Pakistani or Muslim men are not overrepresented in sex offender units in proportion to their population. What is clear is that (statistically speaking and in general) white men commit certain kinds of sexual abuse, black men other kinds of abuse, Pakistani men in some parts of the country a different method or mode of abuse.

The reasons why this is so deserve to be investigated, but even if there are cultural or religious influences on attitudes and circumstances of the crimes that lead to these differentials, none of them indicate an increased preponderance to abuse by Pakistani / Muslim men overall.

Good to nip this and confront it head on so that people who want to suggest otherwise don't get the chance to do so.

On the basis of the report I think the supposition that early teenage males need a strong male presence to hold their basic instincts in check by teaching empathy and respect for others, particularly those weaker than you, is right on. We used to call it 'self discipline'.

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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #201 - January 14, 2011, 09:28 PM

Quote from: IsLame on January 14, 2011, 09:25 PM
Why not?

How does that map specifically onto the uniqueness of these offences? There are large, low income immigrant communities where this has never been reported - even Muslim communities like Somalis who are concentrated in certain parts of the country.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #202 - January 14, 2011, 09:31 PM

Quote from: IsLame on January 14, 2011, 09:27 PM
I didnt understand what it said, can you rephrase?

I was just saying that these crimes are very specific. We can actually see differentials in the types of abuse carried out by different ethnicities. There must be reasons for this - social, cultural reasons. But even though these crimes are unique, over all, Pakistanis are not more likely to be sexual abusers than men of other ethnicities.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #203 - January 14, 2011, 09:34 PM

Quote from: sojournerlumus on January 14, 2011, 09:14 PM
Well, if the whole of the North of England is localised, you may have a point.

Its very specific milltowns and as far as I can see, mostly the Lancashire milltowns, although the Yorkshire ones are involved. Apart from one case in Derby, the east Midlands, there have been no reported cases in the West Midlands or elsewhere with large Pakistani / Muslim populations, nor anywhere in the south of England. Midlands + South is where most Pakistanis / Muslims live.

My anecdotal awareness is that Mirpuris make a higher proportion of Pakistanis in the milltowns that elsewhere although I'm ready to stand corrected on that point.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #204 - January 14, 2011, 09:36 PM

Quote from: billy on January 14, 2011, 09:31 PM
I was just saying that these crimes are very specific. We can actually see differentials in the types of abuse carried out by different ethnicities. There must be reasons for this - social, cultural reasons. But even though these crimes are unique, over all, Pakistanis are not more likely to be sexual abusers than men of other ethnicities.

ok

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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #205 - January 14, 2011, 09:37 PM

Quote from: sojournerlumus on January 14, 2011, 09:27 PM
On the basis of the report I think the supposition that early teenage males need a strong male presence to hold their basic instincts in check by teaching empathy and respect for others, particularly those weaker than you, is right on. We used to call it 'self discipline'.

Sure. But that still doesn't account for the over representation of black men / youths in that particular offence in London. Unless there is a correlated lack of male presence to teach the requisite empathy and respect for others, single parent households, that kind of thing.

In that study it would be good, for example, to get a breakdown of the background of offenders between say African and West Indian origin.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #206 - January 14, 2011, 09:51 PM

Quote from: billy on January 14, 2011, 09:28 PM
How does that map specifically onto the uniqueness of these offences? There are large, low income immigrant communities where this has never been reported - even Muslim communities like Somalis who are concentrated in certain parts of the country.

Its not a good example.

Concentration alone doesnt cut it as sina points out - its about strength in numbers across the country as well, which leads to a strong sense of orgnaisation, culture & community. I am not even sure if they make up 0.1% of the population.

Much like the 1960s Pakistanis who came & the Poles, they are predominantly 1st generation immigrants, a sizable proportion of whom are assylum seekers.

Nevertheless http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6965719.ece

Quote
The murder of PC Sharon Beshenivsky, by a Somali gunman in Bradford, West Yorkshire, is the best-known example of violence from criminal elements within the Somali community. In Sheffield, police tackling a gang problem were struck by the lack of inhibition among the Somali members when it came to using violence — describing it as verging on torture.

In Birmingham in 2005, police obtained an injunction to keep a Somali man out of the Edgbaston red light district after identifying him as a suspect in a series of knife-point rapes. He was later convicted of the attacks.

London’s Somali gangs are many in number, contemptuous of the police and prolific in crime and violence. There are encouraging signs however that a community characterised by its tribal structure, distrust of authority and sense of alienation is beginning to tire of its reputation and realise that it can empower itself to improve its situation.

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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #207 - January 14, 2011, 09:54 PM

Quote
Concentration alone doesnt cut it as sina points out - its about strength in numbers across the country as well, which leads to a strong sense of orgnaisation, culture & community. I am not even sure if they make up 0.1% of the population.

OK. But why isn't this specific type of offence happening in Birmingham or London where the concentration is equally high in certain areas? This has been happening for at least a decade and yet it hasn't transmitted down south. To say nothing of other areas of the country with high concentrations of other minorities. Including other Muslim groups like Bangaldeshis.

The organisation thing is highly relevant though - these victims were passed along chains of men - highly trusted networks in which it is a fait accompli that they share the dehumanised view of the girls and there is no chance that they will grass up. Often highly insular stratified kinship networks that might correlate with the actual stratifications, for example (once again for the sake of argument) amongst Mirpuris or other sub-ethnicities who perpetrate the crimes.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #208 - January 14, 2011, 10:08 PM

Education levels of immigrants, access to employment, down trodden neglected areas where organisation like BNP are rife etc.

Level of kinship is strong thoughout the Pakistani community, similar enough to the extent where it would not affect this level of this type of crime.

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Re: Jack Straw says some UK Pakistani men see white girls as "easy meat" for sex
Reply #209 - January 14, 2011, 10:10 PM

But a key distinguishing feature is the network through which the girls were passed along.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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