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Theme Changer

 Topic: Enemies not Allies

 (Read 29480 times)
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  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #30 - January 13, 2011, 04:47 PM

    OK, he was against this particular event - I got the impression you were saying he wanted anyone who speaks out against Israel criminally charged.

    Actually the conference in the OP is very relevant here. Hizbollah (and their Islamic Regime backers) and Hizbu-Tahrir, are not our allies - they are our enemies!

    Of course CEMB supports the rights of the Palestinians to self-determination and we condemn Israeli aggression - but we will never join hands with such groups.

    We are just as much against Islamists trying to hijack the plight of the Palestinians for their own ends as we are against groups like EDL trying to hijack criticism of Islam for their own ends.

    Although I don't agree with everything Douglas Murray says - I certainly don't put him in the far-right bigoted category.


    + 1


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #31 - January 13, 2011, 04:53 PM

    @Billy

    By which group of Rabbis were you violated? Quit pimping for the towelheads you godless catamite. Alone among all the countries of Absurdistan, the Jewish state has the hottest gay bars at which the likes of you may jiggle their bottoms night and day and for this you vilify it?
  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #32 - January 13, 2011, 05:11 PM


    MAB, you perplex me with your skills of detection. Once again you have uncovered me, just as my Armenian mendacity was also exposed by your innate powers. Like a stealthy trojan horse virus you bring this subterfuge to attention.

    This time it was a trio of black maned voluptuaries from Golders Green who revealed themselves in post-coital conversations in a suite in the Savoy to be Mossad agents, and convinced me to render this service for carnality with a Hebrew accent, as well as dollars and shekels to be wired to my Cayman Islands account.

    Now I stand exposed. All I can do, like the master cat burgler, apprehended by an even more masterful detective, is to offer admiration to you wryly, before you exit through the window until we meet again, you scarlet pimpernel!

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #33 - January 13, 2011, 05:20 PM

    LOOOOOL

    Tell me Billy, what do you think of the witless, charmless, d!ckless pondlife that is Douglas-I'm-not-a-freemarket-fundamentalist-Murray? When I am dictator, I propose to drag all such quacks to the sewage plant and hurl them in, but I fear they may contaminate the sewage. I'm a radical environmentalist who cares profoundly about the welfare of coliform bacteria. Nuke the rascals, say I, and save the coliform. Bacteria are people too.

  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #34 - January 13, 2011, 05:33 PM


    I receive payments from that gentleman for defending him from soundrels like you too, MAB.

    I cannot jeopardise the installment of gold encrusted taps for my yacht anchored off Tel Aviv by passing comment,  a yacht which I shall soon be clinking glasses of Pimms aboard with bikini clad assassins from Haifa alongside rabbis and CIA representatives. A Bollywood starlet awaits down below, naked, my gift from the Indian government in lieu of future services rendered on message boards like this one.

    Take Beer!



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #35 - January 13, 2011, 06:57 PM

    LOL@Take Beer

    When you spread your bottom cheeks for Doug, has he ever put his lips around your nipples? Intriguing. I like your style: A keyboard mercenary with his cheeks parted for the highest bidder. Tell me Billy, what's the going rate? If I advanced you a sum of money that would make a dead man cry, would you suck my toes? You know, clean them up for me after I've trampled the free marketeers underfoot. Me love you long time.
  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #36 - January 13, 2011, 07:47 PM

    OK, he was against this particular event - I got the impression you were saying he wanted anyone who speaks out against Israel criminally charged.

    Actually the conference in the OP is very relevant here. Hizbollah (and their Islamic Regime backers) and Hizbu-Tahrir, are not our allies - they are our enemies!

    Of course CEMB supports the rights of the Palestinians to self-determination and we condemn Israeli aggression - but we will never join hands with such groups.

    We are just as much against Islamists trying to hijack the plight of the Palestinians for their own ends as we are against groups like EDL trying to hijack criticism of Islam for their own ends.

    Although I don't agree with everything Douglas Murray says - I certainly don't put him in the far-right bigoted category.


    Anyone? No, but you should read what he said again-- it's much broader than simply those who support Hizbollah. In any case, Douglas Murray is warmongering imperialist, statist, capitalist slime. He's no ally of mine-- he's an enemy of just about any poor sod in the Middle East who gets killed by an IDF or UK/US soldier, and an enemy of social progress and humanity in general. He packages imperialism as "progress" when it's the retardant of progress.

    fuck you
  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #37 - January 24, 2011, 08:15 PM

    Douglas Murray has super-powers and jedi mind control tricks too.



    LOL
  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #38 - January 24, 2011, 08:22 PM

     Cheesy
  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #39 - January 24, 2011, 08:27 PM

     parrot.... okay - I'm sorry. Just had a laugh-less day. Anyhow, this event will be good!

    Maryam Namazie, Douglas Murray, Shiraz Maher - what an intellectual/eye-opening/critical thinking line up, doesn't get better than this peeps! cool2

    You two - yes you know who you are don't act like you don't - you both going?  Smiley If you come I'll get you some hummus for lunch! Promise  grin12
  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #40 - January 24, 2011, 09:55 PM

    I'm surprised that Shiraz Maher is gonna be there.  He obviously has no problem liasing with COEM.  I can't see any other Muslims doing that.

    .
  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #41 - January 24, 2011, 10:12 PM

    Shiraz is awesome.
  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #42 - January 24, 2011, 11:26 PM

    Looking forward to meeting you HO Smiley
  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #43 - January 25, 2011, 09:23 AM

    i would come but i have an exam the next day and i don't trust myself to not fuck up and miss the last train again
  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #44 - January 25, 2011, 09:35 AM

    Douglas is very charming in person and has a unqiue ability to come across as very reasonable which is part of his success but he is nuts, not in a Nick Griffin type of way but in an old-school English colonial way. Basically Q-man is right.

    BTW I know him personally.

    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #45 - January 25, 2011, 09:43 AM

    how do you know him personally?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #46 - January 25, 2011, 11:02 PM

    Douglas is very charming in person and has a unqiue ability to come across as very reasonable which is part of his success but he is nuts, not in a Nick Griffin type of way but in an old-school English colonial way. Basically Q-man is right.

    BTW I know him personally.


    I know you do, so I take your opinion seriously.
  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #47 - January 25, 2011, 11:03 PM

    I have to say that after meeting him personally I found him to be far more reasonable than some reports have portrayed him. I also found him to be a very charming and likable person.

    btw I met him at the British Muslims for Secular Democracy rally - he was the ONLY British politician that came out to support that Demo!


    Douglas Murray is actually a zionist, he talks about the joys of living in gaza and that there was no blocade:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQc-jHcSXNc
  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #48 - January 25, 2011, 11:21 PM

    Douglas Murray is actually a zionist, he talks about the joys of living in gaza and that there was no blocade:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQc-jHcSXNc


    Thanks for posting that. Like I said, I don't agree with Douglas Murray, but I certainly would not place him in the far-right category. As I watched that vid, I wanted to dislike him for what he was saying, but frankly I couldn't. I disagree with him - but I can't help liking the fellow  grin12
  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #49 - January 27, 2011, 08:03 AM

    Douglas is very charming in person and has a unqiue ability to come across as very reasonable which is part of his success but he is nuts, not in a Nick Griffin type of way but in an old-school English colonial way. Basically Q-man is right.


    Disagree - I think he is totally misunderstood because most of the time people looking at him wrongly do so with liberal tainted spectacles. He's far from nuts.
  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #50 - January 27, 2011, 08:12 AM

    This was a very good event. It got pretty passionate and informal as the youtubes will show (!)

    I got to meet Douglas Murray in person and when asking him about certain comments with banning all Muslim immigration into Britain - he's actually misquoted. He made it very clear that no government will object to assimilating immigrants; that it is MASS (i.e. uncontrolled/unselected) Muslim immigration that is an issue.

    Got to meet Chris, Pariah, THinky last night afterwards. Maryam joined us for a beer too! (How cool is that?). Maryam is fed up with us ex-Muslims. We don't do enough activism (for many understandable reasons) and there is such little money since CEMB is looked down upon as an Islamaphobic organisation to many liberals. (It makes them feel uneasy to support CEMB)

    Thinky and I concluded (rather crudely after a few pints/glasses) we need brown skinned second generation ex-Muslims to fly the flag so others can identify with us. I think this is true. We turn up last night and there was a majority (95%) white audience - just goes to show we aren't being represented enough.
  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #51 - January 27, 2011, 10:35 AM

    Thanks HO - sorry I couldn't make it.
  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #52 - January 27, 2011, 12:08 PM

    Good event - shame it wasn't longer, though. I felt like we'd just started getting into the juicy stuff when time ran out rather abruptly. Douglas Murray made a couple of salient points between a lot of waffle. I found much of what Rahila Gupta said interesting, along with some of the points Shiraz Maher and Ghaffar Hussain made.

    Shout out to those who made it: HO, Shahid Raza, Chris, Pariah - anyone else we missed?  Afro

    Maryam is fed up with us ex-Muslims.

    Yeah, I got that vibe off her. A lot of us could be a little more active in supporting CEMB in various ways.

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #53 - January 27, 2011, 03:53 PM

    An interesting event, but I thought the panel was too large, the scope too wide and the time too short for much progress to be made in developing a consensus and agreeing upon a common position and future approach.

    Understandably, the organisers wanted to look at the way in which both the authoritarian right (BNP, EDL, SIOE) and their counterparts on the left (Stop the War, UAF), use and distort the debate for their own ends. Given the time restraints though, a focus purely on the former would have been better and may have gone some way to avoid the rushed nature of the second half of the event. Else, making this an all- or half-dayer would have been the way to go.

    Douglas Murry was certainly entertaining, and every bit as talented an orator as I'd expected, but I think he had a part to play in what became a rather confused discussion regarding the EDL. Whilst all panellists and vocal attendees seemed to be in agreement that the BNP were hijacking the fight against Islamism in various ways and for various reasons, no such agreement was forthcoming on the EDL. I find this bizarre considering the origins, membership and activities of this organisation, not to mention the statements made by prominent EDL members. The BNP, at present, are a fast dissolving entity, and one that most people have a reasonable understanding of in terms of their ideology. The EDL, on the other hand, have rapidly expanded and are something of an enigma to the British public. I could well imagine that a word association game with many people may go something like: "BNP"..."racist", "EDL"..."err, hmmm, I dunno, English??". That they have not yet been labelled in the public consciousness makes them dangerous. They also have a big street presence and, unlike the BNP, the EDL's constituent mix of old school neo-Nazism and revived 1970's/80's hooliganism, represents a genuine risk of street warfare in the UK.

    I hope that no one involved in CEMB or One Law for All would want to allow Muslims to be made to feel that they are at risk of physical attacks. The fact that this would be strategically disastrous in beating radical Islam, in promoting social cohesion and in freeing those trapped in "Muslim communities" is an aside. More importantly, we must never ever resort to the promotion or appeasement of physical violence against other humans simply for their thoughts and beliefs. By forming alliances, however strategic and transient, with the EDL, we would be doing exactly that. It would achieve nothing that we currently fight for, it would destroy the good name of secularism and, I should hope, it would make it difficult for us to look ourselves in the mirror. The conference title was "Enemies nor allies", and the EDL are just that.

    The role that the CEMB and One Law for All must play, as Maryam stated repeatedly and passionately yesterday, is as an alternative. We exist, in part, to show people that you CAN disagree with Islam, with Islamism and with actions carried out in their name, without being racist, without being bigoted, narrow-minded, hateful, threatening, violent or divisive. If we fail to show the greater public that they can criticise Islam, legitimately, for the sake of liberalism and freedom, then we leave them stuck - in either frustrated self-censored apathy, or in the hands of groups just as extreme and just as dangerous as the Islamists we oppose.
  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #54 - January 27, 2011, 06:12 PM

    Excellent post, Chris I agree with every point  Afro

    However I am astonished that you say some appeared to have a soft attitude towards EDL. I know Maryam has always adamantly rejected their approaches for alliance. They should not be touched with a barge pole!
  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #55 - January 27, 2011, 08:01 PM

    Maryam is fed up with us ex-Muslims. We don't do enough activism


    I really feel Maryam's pain! It is really frustrating to see such low turn-outs at meetings and demos on issues that should be important to everyone.

    Part of the problem is, of course, that few ex-Muslims are able to 'come out' let alone become an activist - seeing that not only do Muslims regard leaving Islam as bad but actively opposing as something akin to becoming Shaytan's right hand man and you risk being hated and despised and reviled by your whole family and community.

    Another problem is "not" believing is something is not a great motivator for activism. Maryam came from a background of already campaigning for Human Rights etc... Others are motivated by beliefs, faith or politics etc...

    But most ex-Muslims just don't believe and many of us here are wishy washy liberals with no particular burning desire to change the world.

    I myself - apart from my many other commitments - have to push myself to attend stuff and only because I believe that what we stand for is utterly essential in the world right now - and also because of my admiration for Maryam.

    But tbh I am not an activist by nature - I love a good debate - but marching with placards is not really my bag - man lol - but I do it because I want CEMB to be successful as I wholeheartedly believe in what they stand for.

    We really need others to step forward though - and I agree - we need more Asian representation - after all they are the majority of Muslims in the UK!
  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #56 - January 27, 2011, 08:41 PM

    i only have one question: did pariah get shitfaced after two wines again?

    also i hope to get more active in the cemb once i'm out of my house, as that's the main problem many young ex-muslims have with participating. we have no organisation who's willing to help us unless you're a woman or pregnant and can demonstrate physical abuse and the only option is to become homeless and destitute.
  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #57 - January 27, 2011, 09:05 PM

    I really want to be part of activism but I am in US, and I don't really think there are enough number of us who can do much.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #58 - January 27, 2011, 09:23 PM

    I really feel Maryam's pain! It is really frustrating to see such low turn-outs at meetings and demos on issues that should be important to everyone.

    Part of the problem is, of course, that few ex-Muslims are able to 'come out' let alone become an activist - seeing that not only do Muslims regard leaving Islam as bad but actively opposing as something akin to becoming Shaytan's right hand man and you risk being hated and despised and reviled by your whole family and community.

    Another problem is "not" believing is something is not a great motivator for activism. Maryam came from a background of already campaigning for Human Rights etc... Others are motivated by beliefs, faith or politics etc...

    But most ex-Muslims just don't believe and many of us here are wishy washy liberals with no particular burning desire to change the world.

    I myself - apart from my many other commitments - have to push myself to attend stuff and only because I believe that what we stand for is utterly essential in the world right now - and also because of my admiration for Maryam.

    But tbh I am not an activist by nature - I love a good debate - but marching with placards is not really my bag - man lol - but I do it because I want CEMB to be successful as I wholeheartedly believe in what they stand for.

    We really need others to step forward though - and I agree - we need more Asian representation - after all they are the majority of Muslims in the UK!


    I agree with you Hassan. Thinky and I cam to the same conclusions: most ex-Muslims aren't independent, financially secure, want to endure the honour/shame it bring to the family let alone have the time and effort and energy and put their safety at risk to take a stand. On top of this, ex-Muslims who are in a decent position to be active have jobs and a life to get on with.

    I'd love to be more proactive, but with work taking priority and house prices so high, I (like others here) just don't have the opportunity.

    HOWEVER! I give it 10 more years and there will be more of us in the position to be more active. I have faith in that, however unlikely it may seem.
  • Re: Enemies not Allies
     Reply #59 - January 27, 2011, 09:33 PM

    However I am astonished that you say some appeared to have a soft attitude towards EDL.


    This is where I think last night Douglas Murray got completely misunderstood by the majority of the audience (it is understandable - there is a time limit to what one can say and I do think he talks at a different level/ahead of the curve sometimes).

    Afterwards quite a few people thought Murray was being apologetic towards the EDL. This is simply not true. This is a white paper document outlining how his organisation have analysed this indepth and is of course against the EDL:
    http://www.socialcohesion.co.uk/blog/2009/09/hooligans-racists-bigots-we-dont-want-your-help.html

    What Douglas was saying, and I agree to this, is that you can't completely deny someone's voice completely out of the debate when they say things that majority liberals in the UK cannot seem to pallet, e.g. "I think burkas should be banned" or "Madrassa schools ought to be banned". What he was leading to was the issue that because the common anglo-saxon white man/woman in the UK is unable to make these correct remarks (at least, I think they are correct), then you open up these other more bigoted right wing groups to have a voice. It is a "spill over" effect when there is lots of left, not much respectable right, and then a quite a bit of bigoted far right. So - Douglas was not being apologetic for the EDL, he was simply saying that if you deny the worried common white man/woman to debate about the issue of mass immigration which is changing our society sometimes in negative ways, then you'll have the effect of bigoted right wing organisations and those in between the bigots and respectable right wingers (e.g. Geller, Spencer) get more of a following. (For the record, I do NOT agree with Geller/Spencer's stances but I think it is important they voice themselves in order for there to be a debate, a debate we don't have enough of in the UK).
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