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Theme Changer

 Topic: Progressive Islam

 (Read 17030 times)
  • 12 3 4 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Progressive Islam
     OP - January 19, 2011, 11:42 AM
    Hi,

    I am *not* an ex-Muslim, so I hope you will allow me to post here. However, I have views that, according to most mainstream Muslims, "take me out of the fold of Islam".

    I am looking to share ideas with people who DO identify as muslims, but also believe in things like gender equality, democracy, and so on.  

    I am linking to a thread I posted on an Islamic forum - I've tried to explain my thoughts on democracy and the basis for this in the Qur'an within the contexts the Islamic traditions of Ijma (public consensus) and Ijtihad (critical thinking).

    ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?282988-Identifying-as-quot-liberal-quot-and-quot-muslim-quot-at-the-same-time

    It would be great if we could have a discussion on this topic and other issues surrounding progressive Islam.

    Thanks,

    Sofian  
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #1 - January 19, 2011, 11:50 AM
    This is an ex-Muslim forum. We believe in freedom of speech and don't obsessively censor anyone who disagrees with us, so of course you're welcome here.  Afro


    Welcome to the forum Smiley
    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #2 - January 19, 2011, 11:52 AM
    Welcome Sofian ,

    We do have some Muslims here who also hold unorthodox views, such as Abu Yunus, The Tailor, Debunker - and many ex-Muslims who have all sorts of beliefs from Theists to Pantheists to... well whatever... lol  perhaps they will chip in with some thoughts.

    Whatever the case - you are very welcome Smiley
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #3 - January 19, 2011, 12:01 PM
    Quote from: GodIsNotGreat on January 19, 2011, 11:50 AM
    We believe in freedom of speech and don't obsessively censor anyone who disagrees with us, so of course you're welcome here.  Afro


    That's such a refreshing change:)
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #4 - January 19, 2011, 12:02 PM
    Welcome  Smiley

    Just read that thread;
    Quote
    The point I was making is this. The Shariah is NOT divine

     Hmmm my bf (he's muslim) says the same thing that the shariah can be changed depending on the time, society and other factors and doesn't have to be based on 7th century Arabia.
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #5 - January 19, 2011, 12:04 PM
    yeah absolutely. I mean Islam has a great tradition of critical thinking but for political reasons all this stopped shortly after Muhammad (SAW) died - and basically, it's been stuck in a medieval mindset since then.
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #6 - January 19, 2011, 12:05 PM
    Hi Sofian

    I am very much sympathetic to Muslims who wish to interpret Islam in a moderate way and make it compatible with democracy, human rights and liberalism. I also believe that this can be done and ultimately must be done, since we can't expect 1.5 billion people to apostacise.

    I think the key debate at the moment is freedom of speech and conscience. At the moment most Muslims shun free speech and enquiry, hence a mature debate is not allowed to take place.

    Welcome to the forum.

    Pakman
    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #7 - January 19, 2011, 12:10 PM
    Do you also interpret democracy as people being allowed to elect representatives, leaders etc. and being allowed to change laws that don't contradict the Quran? Bcoz I've realised the only reason why some muslims say Islam is incompatible with democracy is bcoz "man legislates law"
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #8 - January 19, 2011, 12:19 PM
    Well, Muslims always make out that democracy is a uniquely Western, man made, concept. I don't believe this is the case at all - there is something very universal about it.

    As human beings we are moral agents. We need personal autonomy, ie. the ability to decide for ourselves what is in our best interests. And ultimatly, the fairest way of granting this autonomy is through a democratic political system.

    Democracy, to my mind, doesn't neccessarily mean balloting, MPs, proportional representation, etc. It simply means the public should have a say on the decisions which affect them.
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #9 - January 19, 2011, 12:19 PM
    Quote from: sofian86 on January 19, 2011, 12:04 PM
    yeah absolutely. I mean Islam has a great tradition of critical thinking but for political reasons all this stopped shortly after Muhammad (SAW) died - and basically, it's been stuck in a medieval mindset since then.


    tbh it's not so unusual to think this way these days. Many Muslims now argue that the details of Shari'ah are not fixed and should suit the context. They would argue Shari'ah is the general idea that there is a moral code that should govern society rather than it being a set of specific and fixed rules.
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #10 - January 19, 2011, 12:22 PM
    Quote from: sofian86 on January 19, 2011, 12:19 PM
    Well, Muslims always make out that democracy is a uniquely Western, man made, concept...


    Well Hizbi/Muhajiroun/Salafi types certainly do. But there have been Muslims who have argued that Islam itself offered an early type of Democratic system with the idea of "Shura" consultation.
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #11 - January 19, 2011, 12:23 PM
    signwelcome
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #12 - January 19, 2011, 12:28 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 19, 2011, 12:22 PM
    Well Hizbi/Muhajiroun/Salafi types certainly do. But there have been Muslims who have argued that Islam itself offered an early type of Democratic system with the idea of "Shura" consultation.


    I would guess they are few and far between though, unfortunatly. Do you know of any scholars who believe Islam and Democracy are compatible?
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #13 - January 19, 2011, 12:45 PM
    Quote from: sofian86 on January 19, 2011, 12:28 PM
    I would guess they are few and far between though, unfortunatly. Do you know of any scholars who believe Islam and Democracy are compatible?

    Ghamdi, Ramadhan, Abdal-Hakim Murad, Lauren Booth lol
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #14 - January 19, 2011, 01:03 PM
    parrot signwelcome  parrot
    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #15 - January 19, 2011, 01:18 PM
    Quote from: sofian86 on January 19, 2011, 12:04 PM
    yeah absolutely. I mean Islam has a great tradition of critical thinking but for political reasons all this stopped shortly after Muhammad (SAW) died - and basically, it's been stuck in a medieval mindset since then.

    Well, there were some changes during the time of Omar.

    Also ummah.com have one of the most backwords muslims. But I am glad that there still are people like you who voice their opinions there. And I am sure it will make some positive change.
    There is sunniforum, that has much better educated audience then ummah.
    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #16 - January 19, 2011, 01:22 PM
    Quote from: sofian86 on January 19, 2011, 12:28 PM
    I would guess they are few and far between though, unfortunatly. Do you know of any scholars who believe Islam and Democracy are compatible?


    Do a search, there have been quite a few. In fact even a few traditionalists would say that some aspects of Democracy (consultation of the people) are compatible with Islam. (Qaradawi for example!)

    Also see this book:

    Democracy In Islam: Sayed Khatab

    Also

    http://www.ijtihad.org/shura.htm


  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #17 - January 19, 2011, 01:25 PM
    Quote from: sofian86 on January 19, 2011, 11:42 AM
    Hi,

    I am *not* an ex-Muslim, so I hope you will allow me to post here. However, I have views that, according to most mainstream Muslims, "take me out of the fold of Islam".

    I am looking to share ideas with people who DO identify as muslims, but also believe in things like gender equality, democracy, and so on.  

    I am linking to a thread I posted on an Islamic forum - I've tried to explain my thoughts on democracy and the basis for this in the Qur'an within the contexts the Islamic traditions of Ijma (public consensus) and Ijtihad (critical thinking).

    ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?282988-Identifying-as-quot-liberal-quot-and-quot-muslim-quot-at-the-same-time

    It would be great if we could have a discussion on this topic and other issues surrounding progressive Islam.


    welcome to CEMB sofian86., I am glad you read and write in to ummah.com., I read that quite often.., so did you watch this video??

    Islam & Democracy by Abdur-Raheem Green   and other videos

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8kBSPdCtQc

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYIdtk1ewsk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIBJSlPXVv4

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djS6H2fksxw

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8jrapub49g  

    there are pletny across video web...again it is a wonderful subject to discuss
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #18 - January 19, 2011, 01:28 PM
    Yeezee.... nah... Never mind!
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #19 - January 19, 2011, 01:38 PM


    Hello Sofian, welcome to the forum Afro

    Quote from: sofian86 on January 19, 2011, 12:04 PM
    yeah absolutely. I mean Islam has a great tradition of critical thinking but for political reasons all this stopped shortly after Muhammad (SAW) died - and basically, it's been stuck in a medieval mindset since then.


    Are you sure you're not just romanticising Islam in order to make it palatable to you with your understanding of modern ideas about science, secularism, rationalism, egalitarianism, gender equality etc?

    I say this because people who were critical thinkers in the past who happened to be Muslim and lived in nominally Islamic domains were who they were and thought as they did not because of Islam, but because they were simply intelligent, critically minded men.

    I understand the desire to reconcile your identity and sense of affiliation with Islam, with the reality of Islam as a closed system of belief rooted in intolerance and supremacism and imperialistic notions.

    But you, Sofian86, do not believe in the things you believe in - gender equality, democracy etc - BECAUSE of Islam. You believe in them because you are YOU. So it was with free thinkers from the Islamic world in the past.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #20 - January 19, 2011, 01:40 PM
    I suppose we could get into a discussion about what Islam really is but what matters more is what most Muslims think Islam is. Moderates are a minority amongst the religious classes and it seems that even Sufi's are getting drawn into Takfiri ideology around the world. This discussion is also correlated to social evolution and many Muslim majority nations are quite far behind in their social evolution, which in itself can explain their approaches to scripture.

    People tend to approach scripture with their own prejudices and usually they are looking to confirm what they already believe or want to believe. This leaves us with another uncomfortable truth - that scripture is actually meaningless because people can choose to interpret and apply it as they see fit. So what really is Islam? And does it matter?
    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #21 - January 19, 2011, 01:42 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 19, 2011, 01:28 PM
    Yeezee.... nah... Never mind!

    what is it Hassan??    tell me if you don't want to me write in to cemb i will go in to ummah.com ..lol..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #22 - January 19, 2011, 01:44 PM
    Quote
    if you don't want to me write in to cemb i will go in to ummah.com

    That'll be great, thanks.
    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #23 - January 19, 2011, 01:46 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 19, 2011, 12:19 PM
    tbh it's not so unusual to think this way these days. Many Muslims now argue that the details of Shari'ah are not fixed and should suit the context. They would argue Shari'ah is the general idea that there is a moral code that should govern society rather than it being a set of specific and fixed rules.


    It would be good if this conception of sharia became predominant. Such a situation would open a space for reform, non literalism, un-orthodoxy. Islam would lose to some extent its principle claim for itself - which is exactly its fixed, immutable laws, and the primacy of Mohammad would be challenged because Islam's 'eternalism' would no longer be the norm. It would be on the road, in other words, to becoming what Christianity has become in the West - a neutered and castrated and tamed religion. But its exactly because of that, that the establishments, institutions, and grassroots power structures of Islam will rage against any such thing.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #24 - January 19, 2011, 01:46 PM
    Fazlur Rahman is a modernist and wrote Islam, which goes through the intellectual threads and discussions in history.  His theories where roughly the same as yours.
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #25 - January 19, 2011, 01:51 PM
    Quote from: arX on January 19, 2011, 01:44 PM
    That'll be great, thanks.

    that is a good suggestion arX., I will make your wish  come true

     But let us see how democracy works here ., Why not conduct a poll, how many Cemb folks would like yeezevee to leave the forum...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #26 - January 19, 2011, 01:56 PM
    Quote from: muddy on January 19, 2011, 01:18 PM
    Well, there were some changes during the time of Omar.

    Also ummah.com have one of the most backwords muslims. But I am glad that there still are people like you who voice their opinions there. And I am sure it will make some positive change.
    There is sunniforum, that has much better educated audience then ummah.

    If such well educated folks with computer connection and internet are most backwords muslims, then I am not sure how many forward Muslim we have out of 1.5 billion Muslims., Couple of 1000 from west?? and those progressive Muslims in EAST either they shut up or get killed.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #27 - January 19, 2011, 01:56 PM
    Yeezeevee, I like you in a weird way. But please, for the love of Allah, stop posting so many youtube videos.
    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #28 - January 19, 2011, 02:02 PM
    Quote from: GodIsNotGreat on January 19, 2011, 01:56 PM
    Yeezeevee, I like you in a weird way. But please, for the love of Allah, stop posting so many youtube videos.

    Well that was not the question I posed ., I would disagree with you on those you tubes., I say video links are necessary what is not needed is the large graphics that the forum script puts out in to the post., It should be a just a link., Long time back I suggested to  friends..  What I normally put out is relevant videos to the discussion..  Any way thank you for the suggestion..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #29 - January 19, 2011, 02:12 PM
    Quote from: GodIsNotGreat on January 19, 2011, 01:56 PM
    Yeezeevee, I like you in a weird way. But please, for the love of Allah, stop posting so many youtube videos.


    +1.

    In fact try posting less Yeezee - especially when you don't really have anything sensible (or comprehensible) to add to a discussion.
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