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Theme Changer

 Topic: Progressive Islam

 (Read 16960 times)
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  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #60 - January 20, 2011, 10:41 PM

    Isn't there a lot of Persian nationalism in Iran anyway? Plenty of Persian youth who see Islam and Arabs as one and the same and who see them both as a threat to a history and culture they are extremely proud and protective of.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #61 - January 20, 2011, 10:44 PM

    An agreement by a bunch of warlords to appoint Allah's earthly guardian and leader who cannot then be replaced because he has divine injunction can never be twisted into democracy, really.




    It was a form of consultation that can be built on today. As far as I know a caliph doesn't rule divinely nor is he infallible like an ayatollah or pope.
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #62 - January 20, 2011, 10:45 PM

    Isn't there a lot of Persian nationalism in Iran anyway? Plenty of Persian youth who see Islam and Arabs as one and the same and who see them both as a threat to a history and culture they are extremely proud and protective of.


    Yes, 1 of the reasons why Persians never became arabised was bcoz they rejected sunnism which made them different to other muslims thus their culture, language and heritage survived.
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #63 - January 20, 2011, 10:59 PM

    Isn't there a lot of Persian nationalism in Iran anyway? Plenty of Persian youth who see Islam and Arabs as one and the same and who see them both as a threat to a history and culture they are extremely proud and protective of.


    Read this excellent essay by a professor from Stanford University called Abbas Milani when you get the chance. Its really good. Bookmark it for reference and keeps and to read it later if you ain't got the time tonight.


    ++++++

    CULTURE IS hard to define and even harder to change. Beneath the surface solemnities of politics and the exigencies of economics lurks the intricate web of habits and rituals, practices and privileges, that we call culture. In its overt manifestations, culture may seem a docile tool, or perhaps an efficient vehicle for political change. In reality, culture has the capacity not only to survive upheaval in the halls of power but also to gradually and inexorably alter the nature of governance, molding politics in its enduring patterns. More than once in Iran’s history, after the country was vanquished by outsiders—from Arabs to Mongols—the culture of the conquered survived and eventually molded the customs of the victors to its own pattern. It is hard to imagine that the 1979 revolution will be an exception to this enduring reality.

    In that upheaval of some thirty years ago, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini surprisingly emerged as the leader of the unwieldy and incongruent coalition of cultural forces that united to overthrow the shah, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi. In the months leading up to the revolution, Khomeini used remarkable discipline to conveniently hide his true theocratic, antimodern cultural paradigm, feigning instead support for the democratic, nationalist and leftist values and aspirations that defined the demands of the 1979 revolution. Once ensconced in power, however, Khomeini famously declared that the revolution was not carried out for economic gains but for pious ends. The economy, he said, “is for donkeys.” Creating a new Islamic society, fashioning new men and women based on an Islamic model that had been perfected in the prophetic era of Muhammad some fourteen centuries earlier, finally discarding the cultural values of modernity was, he now claimed, the real goal of the revolution.

    Now even regime stalwarts concede that this project of cultural remodeling has failed miserably. And the failure, along with its incumbent cultural fluidity and political instability, is in no small measure the result of the resilient societal ethos dominant in Iran on the eve of the revolution.

     

    IT HAS become something of a commonplace to say that for more than a thousand years Iran has been defined by a bifurcated, tormented, even schizoid cultural identity: pre-Islamic, Persian-Zoroastrian elements battling with forces and values of an Arab Islamic culture. The paisley, easily the most recurrent image in the Persian iconographic tradition, is said to capture this tormented division. It represents the cedar tree that Zoroaster planted in heaven which was bent by the winds of Islamic hegemonic culture. Adapting in this way has been the key to the ability of Iranian culture to survive marauding tribes and invading armies. But Iran and its heavenly cedar bend only to lash back to their upright gait when immediate danger has passed and occasion for reasserting traditional values has arisen.

    Some scholars have gone so far as to argue that even Shiism—since the sixteenth century the dominant and “official” religion of Iran—is in its fundamental structure nothing but a form of Iranian nationalism. Recent remarks by Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, the head of Lebanon’s Hezbollah, that Iran’s leaders in the last thirty years are all, in fact, Arabs and that their claims of being descendants of the prophet (symbolized by the black turbans they wear) reassert their Arab blood show clearly the continuing tensions between Persian identity and the Islamism of the rest of the Shia Middle East. Nasrallah needs to convince his followers thus that these Arab brothers have left nothing of a “Persian culture” to survive. These controversial comments indicate both the prevalence among ordinary Arabs of this view that Shiism might be an “un-Islamic invention”—and Iranian in origin. To justify his fealty to the country’s current supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, Nasrallah had to first make him an Arab.


    Read it all!

    http://nationalinterest.org/article/zoroaster-the-ayatollahs-4580



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #64 - January 20, 2011, 11:01 PM

    It was a form of consultation that can be built on today. As far as I know a caliph doesn't rule divinely nor is he infallible like an ayatollah or pope.


    To what end? The appointment of a caliph for the ummah? Do Muslims really need that to legitimise democracy, even when in reality it was a consultation for consensus amongst warlords and tribal chieftans? A caliph who is ordained to spread and preserve Islam, a religious figure? That is present in Iran, thats as far as it goes.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #65 - January 20, 2011, 11:14 PM

    Bookmarked Smiley

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #66 - January 20, 2011, 11:17 PM

    To what end? The appointment of a caliph for the ummah? Do Muslims really need that to legitimise democracy, even when in reality it was a consultation for consensus amongst warlords and tribal chieftans? A caliph who is ordained to spread and preserve Islam, a religious figure? That is present in Iran, thats as far as it goes.





    Idk, but it is certainly those who wish to reform Islam could argue for and I think it certainly would help muslims accept democracy but to me that isn't the biggest problem regarding democracy, coz I think we all know what would happen if democracy did come to say Egypt or Saudi  whistling2 Also I don't think most muslims recognise the legitimacy of the Supreme leader in Iran, my mum certainly doesn't lol
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #67 - January 20, 2011, 11:22 PM

    Isn't there a lot of Persian nationalism in Iran anyway? Plenty of Persian youth who see Islam and Arabs as one and the same and who see them both as a threat to a history and culture they are extremely proud and protective of.


    What a contrast to some zombies of the 21st century that gleefully and shamelessly abase theirs in their great love for 'AALAH!'[Allah]



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #68 - January 20, 2011, 11:26 PM

    Quote
    Idk, but it is certainly those who wish to reform Islam could argue for and I think it certainly would help muslims accept democracy


    I fear it would lead them into a limited understanding of democracy, linking into divine authority and the idea of a few selected chiefs getting together to decide upon the Big Chief.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #69 - January 20, 2011, 11:43 PM

    Probably would, as it does go with the practices found in most muslim countries, ie tribal 'elders' and stuff holding a majlis/shura thing. I guess some form of representation is better than a military dictator or a monarch.
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #70 - January 20, 2011, 11:49 PM

    Quote

                                                                 down

     The hushed, brutalized quiet of today is at best a prelude to the liberating storms of tomorrow.

    Prophetic!



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #71 - January 20, 2011, 11:57 PM

    Idk, but it is certainly those who wish to reform Islam could argue for and I think it certainly would help muslims accept democracy but to me that isn't the biggest problem regarding democracy, coz I think we all know what would happen if democracy did come to say Egypt or Saudi  whistling2 l

    That is why I claimed that democracy as such doesn't really solve anything in my previous post. The underpinning values are what really matters.

    Probably would, as it does go with the practices found in most muslim countries, ie tribal 'elders' and stuff holding a majlis/shura thing. I guess some form of representation is better than a military dictator or a monarch.

    At the very least people would see that their opinions matter - at least somewhat. And that something can be done to change the situation. Atm the majority probably feels pretty desperate and extremely frustrated - a fertile breeding ground for extremism.

  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #72 - January 20, 2011, 11:57 PM

    tbh it's not so unusual to think this way these days. Many Muslims now argue that the details of Shari'ah are not fixed and should suit the context. They would argue Shari'ah is the general idea that there is a moral code that should govern society rather than it being a set of specific and fixed rules.


    Right -- this is a very common position these days -- it will probably become more common. But I believe it is insincere to the texts from which it purports to derive. Nothing wrong with insincerity of course, if it leads to people being more nice to each other Smiley

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #73 - January 21, 2011, 12:00 AM

    That is why I claimed that democracy as such doesn't really solve anything in my previous post. The underpinning values are what really matters.
    At the very least people would see that their opinions matter - at least somewhat. And that something can be done to change the situation. Atm the majority probably feels pretty desperate and extremely frustrated - a fertile breeding ground for extremism.





    Yeh exactly, the Islamists groups are the only option they see for change, so naturally people (esp. the youth) will be drawn towards them. Who knows, if democracy succeeds in countries like Pakistan and hopefully Tunisia there might be some change soon. 
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #74 - January 21, 2011, 12:01 AM

    Right -- this is a very common position these days -- it will probably become more common. But I believe it is insincere to the texts from which it purports to derive. Nothing wrong with insincerity of course, if it leads to people being more nice to each other Smiley

    Coincidentally this thread can be nicely supplemented with that piece from your blog you posted a week or so ago.
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #75 - January 21, 2011, 12:05 AM

    Right -- this is a very common position these days -- it will probably become more common. But I believe it is insincere to the texts from which it purports to derive. Nothing wrong with insincerity of course, if it leads to people being more nice to each other Smiley


    Whoa!  Did you really mean that?  How about your interpretations, do you think they are sincere also?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #76 - January 21, 2011, 12:32 AM

    I hope that its OK if I provide some perspective here. Tailor wrote about this sort of issues in his blog.

    Imo Tailor is of the opinion that those who approach Quran from the perspective which sofian86 is employing (from a perspective of a rational person who is capable of having knowledge) are effectively using a tool provided by European Enlightenment which is basically foreign to Islam and thereby in a way self-defeating. That is not to say that rational thought is foreign to Islam though.
    What it does mean is that there might be ways to approach certain issues that are superior to rationality as defined by European Enlightenment and are authentically Islamic to boot. At least that's how my limited intellect sees it.


    How would you interpret 4:34? 4:16?

    I don't know to be honest.


    ^ Your help would be appreciated here Tailor; especially when it comes to 4:16.
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #77 - January 22, 2011, 08:07 PM

    Imo Tailor is of the opinion that those who approach Quran from the perspective which sofian86 is employing (from a perspective of a rational person who is capable of having knowledge) are effectively using a tool provided by European Enlightenment which is basically foreign to Islam and thereby in a way self-defeating. That is not to say that rational thought is foreign to Islam though.
    What it does mean is that there might be ways to approach certain issues that are superior to rationality as defined by European Enlightenment and are authentically Islamic to boot. At least that's how my limited intellect sees it.


    Right, Kenan -- how nice of you to have read through my piece on this! (It is rather long and off-puttingly academic sounding.)
    http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/2011/01/04/a-christmas-nasheed-saba-mahmood-progressive-islam-postcolonialism-and-hajar/

    I would argue that the much of progressive Islam (including some of its very best and able thinkers) -- are being less sincere to the Qur'an in talking about an "extrapolation" of the "intent" of shariah from past to present.

    For example, I am sure you are familiar with the idea that the verses concerning slaves and women are all about being nicer to them than before -- RADICALLY nicer, within the context of 7th century Arabia. Beating wives only after trying many other tactics, for example -- or only selling slaves into prostitution only if they agree -- and, at that, many verses espousing the virtue of freeing slaves. The progressive interpretation is to say -- well, that was a radical jump THEN -- what is the equivalent radical jump NOW? For wives -- no beating at all, but an understanding of different gender roles. For slaves -- well, we don't own them now as such -- but we have all kinds of sanctioned forms of slavery (e.g., all the Chinese and Bangladeshis that sew our clothes) -- the most radical thing we could do today would be to abolish their slavery by paying them better for their goods and services, moving to a socialism etc.

    Or that the command to wear hijab is, in fact, a form of women's liberation because it means people focus on a woman's mind rather than her exterior appearance.

    Or, more complicated cases, such as the argument (cited in my piece) that the verses of polygamy are in a context of a war that left many widows -- and in a time when having a husband meant having financial support -- so might be better treated as mounting a case for a better social security infrastructure today for women, particularly victims of war. So the verses might mean getting more active in helping out the widows of Palestine or Chechnya -- but of course not actually marrying them as the nature of social security and infrastructure has changed.

    The problem with all these positions is that they (often unwittingly) adopt a subjectivity that is "foreign" to Islam (or, for that matter, Medieval Christianity). There's nothing morally wrong with that -- just insincere in its claim to authenticity.

    You'd have to read my piece to get the full details. But I could give you two examples.

    * There is a different (Islamic) subjectivity in which God's commands are not justified with respect to some exterior system. That subject does not say "I wear hijab because it literates me from being forced to appear the way the fashion industry wants me to (essentially forced consumerism)" -- because that justification is related to an exterior ("modern") feminist/socialist discourse. The different (Islamic) subject would instead say "I wear hijab because God commands me to". That is, there is very little foregrounded "God" in the progressive stance -- there is, instead, an individual, a Qur'an (admittedly from backgrounded God), a set of discourses (feminism, socialism, etc), interpretative trajectories that draw a line from Qur'an to the discourses.

    * This gets more serious when we consider the very basic tools by which the progressive operates. Notice that all their arguments -- their interpretative trajectories -- are based on ONE idea of history and time -- a linear concept of history that came into perfection mainly through the European Enlightenment.

    Let me put it this way -- a progressive will argue their case by investigating precedents in the distant past and throughout later caliphates. Here the "past" is pretty much what we are taught it to be, growing up in a modern, Westernized world.

    An Australian Aboriginal 400 years ago, on the other hand, will have a concept of the distant "past" (dreamtime, a time/zone that is linked to the actual state of dreaming) as well as stories about previous generations -- but that is a completely different notion of past to our modern one. In a sense, the Aboriginal's time is not "progressive" -- it does not involve saying 100 years ago we were like this, an improvement on how things were 200 years ago -- there is not a notion of progress here. Instead, previous generations are kind of blurred -- and the past is not a means to establish precedent for future progress. And I'd argue that Islamic subjectivity is much closer to that of the Aboriginal (not exactly the same, but just as different). This is a simple fact, speaking with a Western historical perspective  here -- because ALL subjectivities were different before the modern creation of "history". Look at the way the ancients wrote down their history -- it's radically different from the way we describe history today -- because their sense of time was different (again, not exactly like the Aboriginal, but just as different from ours).

    I am of course aware that I am speaking in a progressive mode, because I can't escape the Western, post-Enlightenment subjectivity I was raised in. But that self-awareness of my discursive position allows me to "displace" my subjectivity in anything I say about the Qur'an. Foucault made a career out of doing this with looking at other topics (crime, punishment, sexuality). The Sufis also make this their life, but it is called a process of fana/baqa in our terminology.

    I could get more detailed if you want -- but I laid it out in relation to the Sa'ee of Hajar in that article Smiley

    Love and Light,

    TT

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #78 - January 22, 2011, 08:43 PM

    Imo Tailor is of the opinion that those who approach Quran from the perspective which sofian86 is employing (from a perspective of a rational person who is capable of having knowledge) are effectively using a tool provided by European Enlightenment which is basically foreign to Islam and thereby in a way self-defeating.


    The tool's been around since Socrates as far as I can tell.
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #79 - January 22, 2011, 08:44 PM


    How would you interpret 4:34? 4:16?

    ^ Your help would be appreciated here Tailor; especially when it comes to 4:16.


    Well both verses are interesting to "interpret authentically" as they are (for me) explicitly about interpretation and authenticity.

    Well, 4:34 is about the Sufic concept of "the wife", which is pretty much the same as in other Abrahamic mystical traditions -- but also further east in things like Tantra. The wives are basically us, as readers -- or, rather, our framework of interpretation (interpreting anything, including the world and the Qur'an). Mine, an atheist's, the progressive's. Then there are the "men", which are prophetic insights, perspectives -- "flashes of nur". When the man and women are aligned, they are in matrimonial harmony and our interpretations (subjective though they be) reflect the truth of God's Love, just as the husband impregnates his wife.

    The Jews sometimes call this state of matrimonial accord the Sabbath -- and the wife in this posture is known as Shekhina. If you know anything about Tantra, you'll know the masculine/prophetic/transcendent and the feminine/interpretive/perceptual/immanent are given the names Shiva and Shakti, respectively. Here's a picture of them getting it on in matrimonial accord:
    http://www.goddessgift.net/images/shiva-shakti-full-front-SS-SSET.jpg

    So the verse is about how to achieve that picture -- you might say "in your head", in your reading/interpretation -- but the Sufi doesn't think about stuff as "in your head". When it is experienced, it's real, baby, really real.

    Sometimes the wife becomes wayward and "misbehaves". This occurs when our interpretation does not face the light of prophecy -- and we basically follow our own whims and not the Love. Then we -- as the wife -- become what the Jews call Lilith, the adulterous wife.

    http://thegoddessnetworks.yolasite.com/resources/lilith2por.jpg

    She looks like fun, maybe. But she's not. The Jews say that when she seduces you -- but transmutes into the Satanic, drawing her sword down upon you, when you're in too deep. First and foremost, don't sleep with her if she comes to you (that is, don't get drawn into interpreting if you feel Lilith coming on). If you find yourself becoming completely seduced by Lilith -- then you need to beat her -- but this is all happening "in your mind", so it comes down to a kind of mental purge.

    Anyway, Lilith is un-Godly interpretation -- unloving interpretation. With respect to verse 4:34 -- Lilith EMERGES in our minds if our wife-aspect were to INTERPRET the verse "literally", as enjoining the physical beating of the wife. If anyone starts thinking like this about the Qur'an -- then first, leave the Qur'an alone. Do not sleep with it. If they still have agressive feelings, they might need to undergo a mental purge and beat the Lilith out of their system. The goal being to turn her back into the Shekhina.

    Verse 4:16 is related. The "four witnesses" are actually the four aspects of your selfhood that we believe watch everything you do: the nafs, the qalb, the ruh and the sirr. They are your progressively "real" selfhood, and your actual conduit to Unity. Adultery is lying with Lilith -- turning away from Love and making Hate your bedfellow, basically. We actually do it all the time -- in small ways usually -- like getting pissed off with someone when driving. Although terrorists, murderers or George Bush would get it in a bigger way. Anyhow -- the cure to adultery is "punishment" -- and that punishment is, in fact, locating your four witnesses -- that is, locating your higher aspects of selfhood. Realising how you are linked to God/Love.

    I've got a much more detailed write up here:
    http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/2010/04/18/lashings-and-the-four-witnesses/

    Any questions? (Please see my sig before flaming me regarding how Islamic this view is or how viable the Sufi way is for the wider ummah. I'm well aware of the impracticalities of this stuff -- 1) I am not a member of the Islamic religion and 2) I have nothing of value to offer the ummah.)

    The Tailor

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #80 - January 22, 2011, 09:04 PM

    The tool's been around since Socrates as far as I can tell.

    I am not claiming that I posses an in-depth perspective, but:

    rational person who is capable of having knowledge = Kantian subject in terms of enlightenment, not in terms of truth

    1) I am not a member of the Islamic religion and

    2) I have nothing of value to offer the ummah.)

    The Tailor

    I do understand the first point you re making, but what do you mean by 'value' in the second one?
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #81 - January 22, 2011, 09:44 PM

    Regarding the second point on values, it's kind of my mantra these days -- something I realised after being challenged to show the value of my work to "fix" what is broken within the ummah -- you'd be surprised how often folk give me this challenge. I gave it a go in fact, -- and then realised I don't have anything of value to offer because I'm not, and never have been, about values. I'm a zero-semantics zone, only syntax. This is the meaning of life as a faqir -- to be valueless (rather than worthless):

    http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/2011/01/22/short-cuts-and-grades/

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #82 - January 22, 2011, 10:22 PM

    ... challenged to show the value of my work to "fix" what is broken within the ummah -- you'd be surprised how often folk give me this challenge.

    But presenting a challenge like that means adopting the frame of the typical capitalist discourse and is thus un-Islamic in itself?
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #83 - January 22, 2011, 10:33 PM

    But presenting a challenge like that means adopting the frame of the typical capitalist discourse and is thus un-Islamic in itself?


    Precisely! But it took me ages to work that out, though it's sort of obvious. You can imagine when people are confronted with my Sufi view, they will often say: "Oh, well, that's too complicated for the average guy in the marketplace to understand -- and so it's of no value -- and if the Qur'an's meant to be read like that, then the Qur'an is of no value either, contradicting the claim that it is written in clear Arabic." The tafsir of "clear Arabic" here meaning -- of moral/instructive/spiritual value to any person in the marketplace. I realised, they are quite correct. But the only thing making that a bad thing is their/my (hyper) capitalist sense that everything (including ideas) must have a value within a marketplace in order to be of worth.

    But if there are no values, then "clear Arabic" has a different sense.

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #84 - January 22, 2011, 10:52 PM

    But if there are no values, then "clear Arabic" has a different sense.

    Do you have enough spare time to explain this?
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #85 - January 22, 2011, 11:11 PM

    Do you have enough spare time to explain this?


    @The Tailor - Yes, I'd be interested in how you understand the Qur'an calling itself clear.



  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #86 - February 20, 2011, 11:07 PM

    @The Tailor - Yes, I'd be interested in how you understand the Qur'an calling itself clear.


    Sorry I never replied to this -- I've been meaning to sign back in but got sidetracked with a big contract at work.

    Of course my understanding is esoteric Smiley All I mean is that, basically, each sign is a sort of opaque glass container or vessel. Inside that vessel is a bit of Truth. But its glass is all muddied and dark, so we just see an "obvious" sign with an "obvious" meaning. You see a chair, it's a chair, no big deal. Reading the Qur'an in the Tailorite fashion is meant to clear that glass away so you see the inside, "esoteric" meaning transparently, clearly. You look "through" the surface, now that it's clear ... and instead you see something that really throws you, it's so surprising (and so good).

    You look at a chair then, you don't see just a chair -- but, like all potential madmen (Van Gough or Muhammed) you see

    http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=van+gough+chairt

    or else you see the Kursi of God.

    So -- I'm sure you could guess -- when a hear the Qur'an saying it is a clear book, a book to make things clear -- of course I see that process of clarification as one of getting to the deeper reality. From another perspective, that certainly makes things look more complicated. But that's only if you believe a chair is a chair and a spade is a spade. But that's not a religious ontological position -- both Richard Dawkins and Zakir Naik would agree on such a mundane relationship to reality -- it is an ontology shared across the field. Whereas my ontology is also cross-spiritual: both your typical LSD consumer and also Sheikh ibn Arabi would all agree that not everything is as it appears to be here ...

    TT

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #87 - February 20, 2011, 11:18 PM

    I've never really understood those liberals/sufis/progressives/reformists who see all sorts of esotetic/deep/profound/mystical messages in the Qur'an.. Some even going as far as saying that "Hell is metaphorical,- both Hell and Heaven are here"..

    I mean, just say: This book, the Qur'an, is just a load of hogwash.

    I shouldn't be here. Really. Shaytan SWT deluded ALL of us. Amen.
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #88 - February 20, 2011, 11:22 PM

    @TheTailor

    Fascinating.

    So what then do you make of the idea that, according to the Qur'an, God is the Baatin and Zaahir? It seems to me to relate to the idea that God 'speaks' to man only via wahy, or through a 'veil,' as per Q. 42:51. I have my own thoughts on it, but I'd very much like to know yours.  yes
  • Re: Progressive Islam
     Reply #89 - February 20, 2011, 11:22 PM

    ... both your typical LSD consumer and also Sheikh ibn Arabi would all agree that not everything is as it appears to be here ...

    Interestingly - so would Zizek; and he is the most hardcore atheist there is.

    This might be a stupid question but still ... Can Muhammad be seen in terms of objet petit a - an unattainable, ideal figure always beyond reach? (thanks olweasel)
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