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Theme Changer

 Topic: "Revert" or "convert"?

 (Read 10563 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #30 - January 20, 2011, 10:15 PM


    Ah, just saw your 'oneness of god' argument, even more presumptiousness in that.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #31 - January 20, 2011, 10:23 PM

    So your opinion is that everyone on earth is born a Muslim, but has been led astray, and that to be a Muslim is conflated with the basic human condition, and that non Muslims are not fully realised human beings too, until they 'revert' to their natural state?

    My opinion (and the opinion of every non Muslim) is that that is laughable hubris, delusional, and quite bigoted too.



     Afro



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #32 - January 20, 2011, 10:53 PM

    Hey AbaAbdillah, I don't want to tread on your toes. You seem like a nice guy. You may genuinely believe in the oneness of god thing that you conflate with being Muslim and being a fully realised human. But surely even you must be able to see how aligning that with the identity of Islam is an assertion of Islam's primacy over everyone, and can be viewed as creepy, arrogant, silly and prejudiced? Even if your interpretation works for you, you know that there are many Muslims, probably most, who don't share your lets be generous and say, more nuanced, non supremacist interpretation of a 'revert' simply referencing 'a return the womb of the oneness of god' ie: islam.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #33 - January 20, 2011, 10:55 PM

    Does anyone know when the convert = revert theological idea cohesed into an actual idea?


    Good question. I wonder if its a purely western (British / North American) dawah invention of the last 20 years.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #34 - January 20, 2011, 11:06 PM

    Muslims believe children were born with "fitrah", an innate disposition towards believing in the oneness of god. I think fitrah doesn't take into account the other stuff because, well I guess we were all programmed since Adam and Eve and genetics did not automatically "update" at the time Muhammad arrived to include "...and Muhammad is his messenger." Because that would be a bit of a long shot and more difficult to prove.

    Gotta love Muslims, turning a verb into a noun.
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #35 - January 20, 2011, 11:28 PM

    Dear friends here on cemb,
    Like every other(ex) Muslims, I too was indoctrinated with the "the default situation is Islam".
    Indeed, we were being told that we are Muslims "since we promised our Lord that He is our Creator", in a supposedly physical realm, with our Lord speaking to all our spirits. Here, as the story goes, everyone (so including kafirs) replied with "BELAA!" (affirmative YES!), at the question of whether Allah is our Lord.
    Anyway, I wonder then, we don't even have a shred of evidence regarding that someone might naturally( impossible anyway, we're a product of our environment) develop the idea of monotheism. And EVEN if this could happen, there is still a far bigger leap  to actually acknowledging Mo as the final prophet of God.

    So, with so many other claims, unsubstantiated and nothing to be taking seriously.
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #36 - January 21, 2011, 12:03 AM

    Good question. I wonder if its a purely western (British / North American) dawah invention of the last 20 years.





    Most likely! Islam seeks and causes to change everything !



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: How to engage with Muslims as a non-Muslim
     Reply #37 - January 21, 2011, 02:13 AM

    I think agnosticism is an apt description for how a human is born - virtually clueless to any sort of knowledge.

    Then we grow up, be exposed to the various proposed gods and supernatural claims, and the rational sceptics among us simply reject belief in such conceptions and claims i.e. atheism.

    Dunno. IMO the default position when someone is born is atheist, they have no religion and don't know anything about gods. Later on as they grow up and get exposed to religious ideas they might go towards agnosticism, and then theism.
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #38 - January 21, 2011, 03:22 AM

    I wouldn't say any of them really.  Atheism, agnostism, atheism presume a concousness capable of making distinctions and holding beliefs.  As far as we know a baby does or can't hold beliefs or abstract ideas such as god or comprehend such ideas. For that reason I think a baby inhabits a kind of no man's land or a kind of proto position.  It for sure doesn't hold a theistic belief as the concept applies to religions in any form what so ever, and it doesn't make the rationalization that the concept of God is incoherent, religions are false or whatever reasons atheists have.  To say such a belief is innate in human and more specifically a specific religious belief really doesn't fit with reality.  It may make theological and religious sense or rather it may fit into the logical systems that have been set up, but it would be a hard stretch to actually show that in reality.  Btw Mormons have the same belief or relatively the same belief that all people accepted God ( the Mormon God to differentiate) and the Mormon Plan and everyone has an innate disposition to look for "the Truth" aka the Mormon religion.  So now we have two competing claims, how should we test this to make sure? Tongue

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #39 - January 21, 2011, 08:14 AM

    a baby does or can't hold beliefs or abstract ideas such as god or comprehend such ideas.

    That means he's an atheist by default. Atheism is not just about the conscious decision to reject the idea of god, its just not believing in god regardless of the reason. If someone grew up in a jungle away from civilization and never knew/heard about god, he would be an atheist too.
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #40 - January 21, 2011, 10:33 AM

    Quote
    That means he's an atheist by default. Atheism is not just about the conscious decision to reject the idea of god, its just not believing in god regardless of the reason. If someone grew up in a jungle away from civilization and never knew/heard about god, he would be an atheist too.


    The fear we humans have, would push him to believe at something , ancestors, spirits, animal spirits, jungle fairies, the great king Jaguar..How else would he explain rain, thunder, fire, wind, volcanoes etc.... Belief is fundamentally a result from fear, fear from the unknown....

    Just look at the sun and the moon, rotating around the earth perfectly! Out of all the never ending space in the universe, the sun and moon ended up close to earth rotating around it perfectly.!!

  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #41 - January 21, 2011, 11:35 AM

    So, with so many other claims, unsubstantiated and nothing to be taking seriously.

    Perhaps, but the fact that people still believe it (as shown on this thread) means it must be taken seriously

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #42 - January 23, 2011, 06:53 PM

    Are you saying that if I believe in monotheism but I believe all the prophets are frauds, then I am still a Muslim?


    Good question.

    No, because you have to believe in the whole message in it's entirety, which was conveyed by the Prophets/Messengers.
    To disbelieve in one, in essence means to disbelieve in all.
    The Quran says:
    "The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers" 2:285

    Your question is a good one though, because you're saying if Islam is about believing in One God, why can't one merely just do that, without having to accept the Messengers/Prophets.
    Islam means submission to God. So one would have to submit to ALL of what was conveyed in it's entirety to be regarded as a Muslim.

    Also can you explain why a human by default might not believe God is an infinite set of spirits - some good, others bad?  Or polytheism, which by all accounts of recorded history, appears to be one of the oldest religion on record?


    Another good question. I said that God instills in a human being the knowledge of his Oneness. Not that the default position has to be, to believe in one God, as your surroundings and environment will have a far greater impact on you.

    For example ancient people used to worship things that inspired their fears, and were thus enslaved by fear. Their deities were based on powers of nature, the moon, stars, win, rain, lightening etc.
    Some began to see their ancestors in dreams and proceeded to worship their ancestors. However they wanted something more tangible so they imagined that the spirit of their ancestors had been reincarnated into animals, this is called totemism.
    However they still wanted something to take home to worship, so they made idols which represented their ancestors.

    Some started to worship rulers and tyrants who exploited priests to their agenda, so they could claim that they were gods or sons of gods, like the pharaohs.
    Eventually man progressed and started to cut down the number of gods.
    They even (like you said) claimed that there were two gods, one of good and one of evil, one of light and one of darkness.
    For example vishnu in hinduism is regarded as the preserver and shiva as the destroyer.
    Then there was Akhenaten who brought monotheism to the egyptians, but it was a faulty one because he introduced himself as the son of god. So not pure monotheism.

    Whilst all of these man made religions were coming and going, there were interesting developments in other places of the world.
    There was a tribe in Kenya called the Kikuyu and they had strong hints of monotheism. They believed in One God called Mogai, who they descibed as Sublime, Generous, Omnipotent, resides in Heaven, Unseen, Creator, Bestower etc.
    However they mixed their monotheism by worshipping idols, ancestors, and nature on the side.

    In Sudan there was a tribe called shilluk who worshipped One God called "Juok" who they claimed made man from clay, and used various different colours of clay from different continents to make people of different ethnicity.
    They claimed he was unseen and invoked him saying "protect us for heaven and earth are yours".
    But they claim that he can never make decisions without the permission of Nyikang, (who was their king) and therefore associated partners.

    My point is that, there were religions that were completely manmade, and based on their environments and surroundings, and there were other religions that believed in a single God, but then they gave it a cultural and environmental colouring, transforming it into something different.
    Messengers/Prophets are meant to bring people back to God and to purify their teachings from what their environments and surroundings corrupted it into being.


  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #43 - January 23, 2011, 07:20 PM

    So your opinion is that everyone on earth is born a Muslim, but has been led astray, and that to be a Muslim is conflated with the basic human condition, and that non Muslims are not fully realised human beings too, until they 'revert' to their natural state?

    My opinion (and the opinion of every non Muslim) is that that is laughable hubris, delusional, and quite bigoted too.



    Hello.

    No. What I said is, my belief is every persons soul knew the Oneness of God before it came into this world. When they were still in the spiritual realm, before their heart took it's first beat in the womb.
    It's the goodness of a human being that is called the "fitrah" or natural disposition. That you feel good when you do good, and you feel bad when you do wrong.
    Your environment and surroundings and what you are exposed to are what effect you and cause you to believe what you do.
    My belief is that Islam is what guides back to that natural state and filters out all the beliefs that came from the surroundings and environment.

    This does not mean that every person who is not in that state is less human, or a bad person. This in no way is making a claim to being righteous or better than a non-Muslim. I recognise good people when I see them, whether they are Muslim or not.
    It is a just a call back to God, rather than a display of arrogance, as arrogance in Islam is a major sin.

    Please don't think I am insulting you.
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #44 - January 23, 2011, 07:34 PM

    Quote
    What I said is, my belief is every persons soul knew the Oneness of God before it came into this world. When they were still in the spiritual realm, before their heart took it's first beat in the womb.

    If you want to be taken seriously, as it has already been pointed out to you, the least you could do when debating is provide some sort of evidence to back your claims.

    Quote
    This in no way is making a claim to being righteous or better than a non-Muslim. I recognise good people when I see them, whether they are Muslim or not.

    In other words, Islam doesn't objectively matter.

    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #45 - January 23, 2011, 07:35 PM

    Isn't Islam a product of its environment?

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #46 - January 23, 2011, 07:39 PM

    Hey AbaAbdillah, I don't want to tread on your toes. You seem like a nice guy. You may genuinely believe in the oneness of god thing that you conflate with being Muslim and being a fully realised human. But surely even you must be able to see how aligning that with the identity of Islam is an assertion of Islam's primacy over everyone, and can be viewed as creepy, arrogant, silly and prejudiced? Even if your interpretation works for you, you know that there are many Muslims, probably most, who don't share your lets be generous and say, more nuanced, non supremacist interpretation of a 'revert' simply referencing 'a return the womb of the oneness of god' ie: islam.


    I have to say that the word "revert" in an Islamic context, is an invention first of all. It is an English word for one, and I think it is used in the wrong manner by many.
    If you read my above reply, I explain my position.
    It's not used to mean that Muslims are great and non-Muslims are simply degenerate or that they are not fully "realised" humans. In no way do I use it in an arrogant context.
    Do some Muslims use it in an arrogant context? Yes, and I have spoken to many who do, but their opinion stems from hatred, arrogance and ignorance.
    Islam to me, is simply Belief in One God and submitting to Him.
    Maintaining a connection and relationship, until you are brought back to Him, and doing good in the world, and to others, and to not walk on the earth in an arrogant way.

    Before I started practicing Islam, I was pretty much like most people on this forum.
    I never hurt anyone, and I liked helping people, even if it meant being harmed myself. So why would I, now that I have become a practicing Muslim start looking down on the ones that don't?
    Unfortunetely they do not see it that way, and have a irrational hatred based on a superiority complex, and I believe it is a satanic incination to be arrogant.

    In Islam for example, satan was the most pious prior to the creation of Adam, but because of his pride and love for himself, he fell from a high state, to becoming the leader of the enemies of God.
    So pride is one of the worst behaviour a human being can possess and something that will end up destroying him/her.

  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #47 - January 23, 2011, 08:04 PM

    I like this guy.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #48 - January 23, 2011, 08:17 PM

    Isn't Islam a product of its environment?


    There are many aspects that are. For example the Quran was revealed in Arabic, the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) dressed in Arab clothing.
    But when it came to following the idols of the Arabs, it broke away from that, and many customs of the Arabs.
    It brought monotheism, and broke away from the things that were seen as unjust. It shaped it's environment, rather than letting its environment shape it.
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #49 - January 23, 2011, 08:33 PM

    Muhammad was a product of his time - he could not be anything else. But he stood out from his time - and should be placed amongst the great reformers of history. The Qur'an is also a magnificent piece of human literature - it is absurd to claim otherwise.

    Sadly the greatest detractor from Muhammad's great achievements and the stature of the Qur'an in human literature is that Muslims raise him to prophet of God and the Qur'an to the word of God. Once one does that then both he and the Qur'an will inevitably be judged harshly.
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #50 - January 23, 2011, 08:43 PM

    It brout monotheism, and broke away from the things that were seen as unjust. It shaped it's environment, rather than letting its ghenvironment shape it.

    Judaism was also in Arabia.

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #51 - January 23, 2011, 08:45 PM

    There are many aspects that are. For example the Quran was revealed in Arabic, the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) dressed in Arab clothing.
    But when it came to following the idols of the Arabs, it broke away from that, and many customs of the Arabs.
    It brought monotheism, and broke away from the things that were seen as unjust. It shaped it's environment, rather than letting its environment shape it.



    it didn't really brake away completely from idol worshiping... You pray towards the stone 5 times a day, and circle it during Hajj just like the Arab Pagans did prior to Islam.

    Just look at the sun and the moon, rotating around the earth perfectly! Out of all the never ending space in the universe, the sun and moon ended up close to earth rotating around it perfectly.!!

  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #52 - January 23, 2011, 08:48 PM

    If you want to be taken seriously, as it has already been pointed out to you, the least you could do when debating is provide some sort of evidence to back your claims.
    In other words, Islam doesn't objectively matter.


    The thing is, if you are not a Muslim, what would it matter? Our debate will continue endlessly, with me making a claim, and you making a counter claim.
    I am talking about the human soul, which knows about the Oneness of God.
    One evidence I could point to, we are all born with this natural state embedded within our souls, every human being of healthy mind, when they do good, they feel good, and when they do bad they feel bad.
    We can call this the human conscience.
    Just like in the nuremberg trials, they refused the defence of the Nazi officers who said "we were only following orders", because a human being has a conscience and they should use it.
    The Quran says:
    "And a soul and Him Who perfected it, And inspired it (with conscience of) what is wrong for it and (what is) right for it, He is indeed successful who causeth it to grow, And he fails that corrupts it!"
    91:7-10

    You said "In other words, Islam doesn't objectively matter"

    I said that a Muslim has no right to be arrogant towards a non-muslim. I have seen many non-muslims who are better in their conduct than many muslims I know.
    What objectively matters is that you have a good relationship with God and do good deeds.
    Just because someone says the Muslim testimony of faith doesn't make that person special, because there are some who say it known as the Munafiqun (hypocrites) and they will be in the lowest parts of hell according to Islamic ideology.
    What is asked for is that you develop a sound heart.

    "The day on which property will not avail, nor sons, except him who comes to Allah with a sound heart. (free from evil)" 26:88-89
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #53 - January 23, 2011, 09:07 PM

    I am talking about the human soul, which knows about the Oneness of God.
    One evidence I could point to, we are all born with this natural state embedded within our souls, every human being of healthy mind, when they do good, they feel good, and when they do bad they feel bad.
    We can call this the human conscience.

    This is not evidence for the claim that "every persons [sic] soul knew the Oneness of God before it came into this world".  Positing an objective "human conscience", even if shown to be true, has no bearing on god claims, let alone your specific one.

    Quote
    You said "In other words, Islam doesn't objectively matter"

    I said that a Muslim has no right to be arrogant towards a non-muslim. I have seen many non-muslims who are better in their conduct than many muslims I know.
    What objectively matters is that you have a good relationship with God and do good deeds.

    You sound rather confused trying to hopelessly come off as humble while simultaneously making a case that your path is the objectively correct one.

    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #54 - January 23, 2011, 09:14 PM

    If that's the way you want to interpret it, then fine. Kiss

    You know nothing about him!

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #55 - January 23, 2011, 09:46 PM

    Your question is a good one though, because you're saying if Islam is about believing in One God,

    Not really, my post was challenging your 2 assertions that Islam was just about believing in one God and it being inherent upon birth.  See your post here-

    The Muslim understanding is that every child is born with an inherent knowledge of the Oneness of God being the natural state.
    It is an issue of belief of the Oneness of God, and not an issue of inferiority vs superiority.


    So from your latest respnse to me can we say no longer agree that its inherent to every child that Islam is the truth.  And also Islam is not just about believing in the oneness of God, but accepting that this God sent a message to a guy called Muhammed, who he also chose as his final messenger, and he left us with the Quran as this Gods final testament to mankind?

    Good question.

    No, because you have to believe in the whole message in it's entirety, which was conveyed by the Prophets/Messengers.
    To disbelieve in one, in essence means to disbelieve in all.
    The Quran says:
    "The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers" 2:285

    Your question is a good one though, because you're saying if Islam is about believing in One God, why can't one merely just do that, without having to accept the Messengers/Prophets.
    Islam means submission to God. So one would have to submit to ALL of what was conveyed in it's entirety to be regarded as a Muslim.

    Another good question. I said that God instills in a human being the knowledge of his Oneness. Not that the default position has to be, to believe in one God, as your surroundings and environment will have a far greater impact on you.

    However they mixed their monotheism by worshipping idols, ancestors, and nature on the side.

    In Sudan there was a tribe called shilluk who worshipped One God called "Juok" who they claimed made man from clay, and used various different colours of clay from different continents to make people of different ethnicity.
    They claimed he was unseen and invoked him saying "protect us for heaven and earth are yours".
    But they claim that he can never make decisions without the permission of Nyikang, (who was their king) and therefore associated partners.

    My point is that, there were religions that were completely manmade, and based on their environments and surroundings, and there were other religions that believed in a single God, but then they gave it a cultural and environmental colouring, transforming it into something different.
    Messengers/Prophets are meant to bring people back to God and to purify their teachings from what their environments and surroundings corrupted it into being.





    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #56 - January 23, 2011, 09:46 PM

    This is not evidence for the claim that "every persons [sic] soul knew the Oneness of God before it came into this world".  Positing an objective "human conscience", even if shown to be true, has no bearing on god claims, let alone your specific one.


    Like I said, this debate will continue endlessly.
    I am talking about the soul and you are talking about a human mind. And asking me why the human mind doesn't automatically lead one to worship one God. I mentioned that the environment is what will define your beliefs, but that Islam will guide one back to a state of a relationship with God.
    A conscience of right and wrong, is the natural state that I was using as an example, I believe God implanted it in the soul. We describe God as being All Good, and doing good is seen as a divine action, which should bring us closer to our natural state.
    But it is up to the intellect to come to that conclusion, as we have free will.
    That's one aspect of this natural state, I was talking about.

    Another aspect is, there are no atheists in foxholes as they say.
    A feeling that humans have as if they are being watched, and someone out there can rescue them.
    The Quran talks about those who are about to drown, and their inclination makes them call upon God alone:
    "When distress seizes you at sea, those that ye call upon - besides Himself - leave you in the lurch! but when He brings you back safe to land, ye turn away (from Him)" 17:67

    Quote
    You sound rather confused trying to hopelessly come off as humble while simultaneously making a case that your path is the objectively correct one.


    That's exactly what I am trying to do lol!
    No. Listen, if I didn't believe that my path is the objectively correct one, then why am I following it?
    I am not here to change your opinion.
    In no way do I view myself as humble I try to be, but I fail terribly lol.
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #57 - January 23, 2011, 09:54 PM

    Not really, my post was challenging your 2 assertions that Islam was just about believing in one God and it being inherent upon birth.  See your post here-

    So from your latest respnse to me can we say no longer agree that its inherent to every child that Islam is the truth.  And also Islam is not just about believing in the oneness of God, but accepting that this God sent a message to a guy called Muhammed, who he also chose as his final messenger, and he left us with the Quran as this Gods final testament to mankind?

    So can I take you that you agree that Islam is


    I was talking about the fitrah, which is implanted in the soul.
    You should see the reply I gave the other person regarding that.
    This is the inclination in the soul to believe in One God, as I believe God created us.

    Islam is about believing in the Oneness of God (monotheism), BUT also submitting to Him. That means you have to believe in Muhammad (SAW) as a final Messenger, only to confirm ALL of the PREVIOUS Messengers/Prophets that came before him.
    If I believe in the Quran as the final testament, and Muhammad (SAW) as the FINAL Messenger/Prophet BUT disbelieve in Jesus (as) then I cannot be regarded as a Muslim.
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #58 - January 23, 2011, 09:59 PM

    Aba - it appears that you might be making an assumption that most of us believe in a human soul, it is in fact the opposite. 

    Like the Abrahmic God, most of us believe the soul is another ancient attempt to fill in the blanks.  Before you make any attempt to talk about what the soul may or many not be naturally inclined to believe, I suggest taking a step back and explaining to us why you believe their is a soul, other than the fact that it says so in the Quran. 

    Problem is that all of us believe the Quran is manmade, so using it as evidence of such claims is not such a good idea.  Same applies to devils, Djinns, Allah etc.

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  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #59 - January 23, 2011, 10:11 PM

    there are no atheists in foxholes as they say.


    That's not true - but I understand what you are saying. Actually I see this in a different way. I see it as a statement about the nature of man and his desperate plight in a world that is often cruel and harsh. When one is so desperate and frightened and alone - with no hope and no way out - one will turn to the sky and plead for help from a god one hopes dearly is there.

    Of course it in no way indicates the existence of such a supernatural - but only indicates the plight of man.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pxRXP3w-sQ
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