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 Topic: "Revert" or "convert"?

 (Read 10575 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • "Revert" or "convert"?
     OP - January 20, 2011, 01:43 AM
    Quote from: AbaAbdillah on January 19, 2011, 06:34 PM

    It it so common that you will hear reverts (converts to Islam) say "I am so glad I embraced Islam, before I met Muslims".



    It's converts, period. Not reverts (converts to Islam).

    @AlanDente did I miss you explanation of interest in Islam and/or Somalis? I have one Somali friend but I am more than certain that my experience would not help here.


    Mod note: edited thread title as it was split from another thread. -allat
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: How to engage with Muslims as a non-Muslim
     Reply #1 - January 20, 2011, 08:30 AM
    Aba are you a convert? I can't remember if you mentioned it?
  • Re: How to engage with Muslims as a non-Muslim
     Reply #2 - January 20, 2011, 10:49 AM

    Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on January 20, 2011, 01:43 AM
    It's converts, period. Not reverts (converts to Islam).


    Thank you Afro

    'Revert' is part of the nonsense that Islam is the default condition of every human being, and that every kuffar has been deceived and led astray from their natural state.

    It also contains the bizarre notion that someone who submits to Islam 'reverts' to the normal human condition - meaning that being Muslim is conflated with being fully human. Non Muslims are not wholly, fully human beings.

    Not just bizarre, but unbelievably arrogant and bigoted too - and containing the seeds of all the prejudices and resentments that Islam often brings upon Muslims like a madness.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: How to engage with Muslims as a non-Muslim
     Reply #3 - January 20, 2011, 11:08 AM
    revert = turning agnostic ,which is the real default position of humans
    Quote from: FreeSoul007 on January 14, 2011, 05:00 AM
    Just look at the sun and the moon, rotating around the earth perfectly! Out of all the never ending space in the universe, the sun and moon ended up close to earth rotating around it perfectly.!!

  • Re: How to engage with Muslims as a non-Muslim
     Reply #4 - January 20, 2011, 01:32 PM
    Quote from: Bardhi_i_zi on January 20, 2011, 11:08 AM
    revert = turning agnostic ,which is the real default position of humans

    I'd say atheist. I was an atheist before I was indoctrinated into the idea of god and islam, and all.
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=L2pk
    --
    Previously donatelo
    --
    Watch Ishina lie and then try to squirm her way out of it like a worm
  • Re: How to engage with Muslims as a non-Muslim
     Reply #5 - January 20, 2011, 01:51 PM
    Quote from: Bardhi_i_zi on January 20, 2011, 11:08 AM
    revert = turning agnostic ,which is the real default position of humans

    Quote from: donatelo on January 20, 2011, 01:32 PM
    I'd say atheist. I was an atheist before I was indoctrinated into the idea of god and islam, and all.

    I think agnosticism is an apt description for how a human is born - virtually clueless to any sort of knowledge.

    Then we grow up, be exposed to the various proposed gods and supernatural claims, and the rational sceptics among us simply reject belief in such conceptions and claims i.e. atheism.
    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: How to engage with Muslims as a non-Muslim
     Reply #6 - January 20, 2011, 06:03 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 20, 2011, 08:30 AM
    Aba are you a convert? I can't remember if you mentioned it?


    I was born into a Muslim family, but only started practicing roughly five years ago.

    Quote from: muddy on January 20, 2011, 01:38 PM
    If you want further discussion, you are welcome to create a one on one match here and leave introduction section for introductions only.


    You're such a twat lol. Why did you even mention me to begin with and divert the conversation? I was on topic, and you weren't. You just attacked me for no reason, and now you're explaining the rules to me?
    I already know about the "one on one" section of the forum, I did not want to, nor do I want to engage in a pointless slinging match with you. I just replied to your BS comment about me trying to "convert" people to my "terrorist" religion.

    Anyway back to topic.

    Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on January 20, 2011, 01:43 AM
    It's converts, period. Not reverts (converts to Islam).


    I have my opinion and you have yours.
  • Re: How to engage with Muslims as a non-Muslim
     Reply #7 - January 20, 2011, 06:14 PM
    You first crossed the line by saying that he/she isn't on the right forum. He is an atheist and can get a alot more information from his peers who are also atheists and have background information about Islam.

    Secondly Islam being terrorist religion is a well known fact. If you want to debate about it, leave this introduction thread and talk somewhere else.
    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: How to engage with Muslims as a non-Muslim
     Reply #8 - January 20, 2011, 06:32 PM
    Quote from: muddy on January 20, 2011, 06:14 PM
    You first crossed the line by saying that he/she isn't on the right forum. He is an atheist and can get a alot more information from his peers who are also atheists and have background information about Islam.
    Secondly Islam being terrorist religion is a well known fact. If you want to debate about it, leave this introduction thread and talk somewhere else.


    I crossed the line by being on topic and replying to the actual poster?
    So saying Islam is a terrorist religion is on topic? To me that's slander, as you know that I am a Muslim.
    That's like me calling your mum a slag, and saying it's a proven fact, but if you want to debate about it, do it in the appropriate section.

    Anyway, I am going to ignore you from now on, you simply lack the intellect to have a discussion.
  • Re: How to engage with Muslims as a non-Muslim
     Reply #9 - January 20, 2011, 06:36 PM
    Quote from: arX on January 20, 2011, 01:51 PM
    I think agnosticism is an apt description for how a human is born - virtually clueless to any sort of knowledge.

    Then we grow up, be exposed to the various proposed gods and supernatural claims, and the rational sceptics among us simply reject belief in such conceptions and claims i.e. atheism.


    I think the default position is animist. I remember taking revenge on inanimate things (like a door handle that was in the way) as a kid. Hell, even today I want to take a hammer and smash the table if I kicked it with my little toe before I had any coffee. Anyway that is my position.

    Quote from: AbaAbdillah on January 20, 2011, 06:03 PM


    I have my opinion and you have yours.


    Do you care to explain why you believe people are born Muslims? Is it because everything submits to Allah's will and only humans have a free will to rebel? So a baby has not learned to use his/her free will yet, thus submits to Allah? Is that the thinking?
    I think it's quite easy for a rock to be Muslim (submit to Allah's will). Here's how I imagine it works:

    Allah to rock: oh rock, stay and don't move unless someone moves you!
    Rock: I hear an obey, I will stay still, o Allah and I will not move. I am a Muslim.

    Well, it's easy for a rock to just stay still, because it can not do anything, dammit.

    Do you agree with this analysis, Aba Abdillah? Do rocks obey Allah, according to the Koran?
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: How to engage with Muslims as a non-Muslim
     Reply #10 - January 20, 2011, 06:43 PM
    Quote from: AbaAbdillah on January 20, 2011, 06:03 PM
    I have my opinion and you have yours.

    Do you see though, why term "revert" is offensive to some? The problem I personally have with it is that it's offensively assertive.

    It's like me telling you that you essentially aren't really a Muslim but only became such through self indoctrination and because of a fact that you were born into a Muslim family.

    And once you ditch that and see The Truth you will become a revert to atheism - such a claim would automatically assert atheism as a default natural stance and almost dehumanize anybody with different views.
  • Re: How to engage with Muslims as a non-Muslim
     Reply #11 - January 20, 2011, 07:10 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on January 20, 2011, 06:43 PM
    Do you see though, why term "revert" is offensive to some. The problem I personally have with it is that it's offensively assertive.

    It's like me telling you that you essentially aren't really a Muslim but only became such through self indoctrination and because of a fact that you were born into a Muslim family.

    And once you ditch that you will become a revert to atheism - such a claim would automatically assert atheism as a default natural stance and almost dehumanize anybody with different views.


     yes Afro But with the same breath people will claim they respect all religions!


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: How to engage with Muslims as a non-Muslim
     Reply #12 - January 20, 2011, 07:12 PM
    Can mod's please move this discussion elsewhere?

    I really hate to see spotlight being taken away from new members specially in intro section.
    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: How to engage with Muslims as a non-Muslim
     Reply #13 - January 20, 2011, 07:16 PM
    I vote with muddy. We are about to discover animist remnants in Islam that came from time before Achenaton Ibrahim.
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #14 - January 20, 2011, 07:47 PM
    Thread split from http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=14311

    Everyone throwing personal attacks, stop now, or you will be smited. Please stay on topic.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #15 - January 20, 2011, 08:34 PM
    Does anyone know when the convert = revert theological idea cohesed into an actual idea?
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #16 - January 20, 2011, 08:40 PM
    Revert is an English word! So I am pretty sure it happened recently.
    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #17 - January 20, 2011, 08:55 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on January 20, 2011, 06:43 PM
    Do you see though, why term "revert" is offensive to some? The problem I personally have with it is that it's offensively assertive.

    It's like me telling you that you essentially aren't really a Muslim but only became such through self indoctrination and because of a fact that you were born into a Muslim family.

    And once you ditch that and see The Truth you will become a revert to atheism - such a claim would automatically assert atheism as a default natural stance and almost dehumanize anybody with different views.


    Hello Kenan  Smiley

    First, of all I thank the Mod who split this thread.
    Secondly, I am deeply sorry if I offended you.

    This is a term Muslims usually use, I wrote "convert" in brackets to explain the term, because the person who I was speaking to is a non-Muslim and might not be aware of what I meant by "revert", from a Muslim perspective.
    I was explaining the meaning, rather than making a self-righteous statement.
    The Muslim understanding is that every child is born with an inherent knowledge of the Oneness of God being the natural state.
    It is an issue of belief of the Oneness of God, and not an issue of inferiority vs superiority.
    I understand you have a difference of opinion on that, if the term "revert" offends you, I will not use it around you again.
    Please do not think that I meant it to be judgemental, or to impose my beliefs.

     Smiley

    Take care
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #18 - January 20, 2011, 09:13 PM
    Hi AbaAbdillah

    You haven't offended me at all. I was merely trying to explain why such wording might be seen as problematic. And I don't find it automatically offensive; it becomes such only when its used in a self righteous manner from a position of self-proclaimed superiority. Feel free to use it around me in the future if you like, I wont hold it against you.

    Tbh on some deep, fundamental level of Truth I actually agree with you in principle. Problem is that I don't think that most interpretations of Islam offer such an insight into The Truth to warrant such an assertion.

    And thanks, you too take care.
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #19 - January 20, 2011, 09:21 PM
    Quote from: AbaAbdillah on January 20, 2011, 08:55 PM
    It is an issue of belief of the Oneness of God, and not an issue of inferiority vs superiority.

    You believe that every child which is born free of any external influence will assume there is a God, and its there is only one of them, and will also automatically realise that Muhammed is his messenger?  That is a definition of a Muslim isnt it? 
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #20 - January 20, 2011, 09:30 PM
    Revert to Islam is a ridiculous concept.
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #21 - January 20, 2011, 09:33 PM
    Let's not forget that the sun and the moon are Muslims as well. Everything in he universe submit to his will.

    Morning. Allah: "O sun, I permit you to rise. Now circle the earth in a circle I appointed for you." The sun:  Huh? "Sure... I am a Muslim, I will do that". Thinking to itself:" as long as you observe me from Hijaz and don't read about Copernicus..."  whistling2
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #22 - January 20, 2011, 09:37 PM
     Cheesy
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #23 - January 20, 2011, 09:42 PM
    abda any studies or any scientific piece of paper that backs up your claim that children are born with  "an inherent knowledge of the Oneness of God"... If it is only your BELIEF than please keep it to yourself... If you make such claims you better have some real proof about it..

     
    Quote from: FreeSoul007 on January 14, 2011, 05:00 AM
    Just look at the sun and the moon, rotating around the earth perfectly! Out of all the never ending space in the universe, the sun and moon ended up close to earth rotating around it perfectly.!!

  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #24 - January 20, 2011, 09:45 PM
    The oneness of God applies to zoros, Christians, Jews etc

    The inherent oneness of God doesnt define a muslim, otherwise they would call Jews who convert to Islam converts.

    The definition of a Muslim is oneness of God + Muhammed as his messenger.

    In any case a child born free of external influences could believe spirits are Gods, polytheism, atheism, monotheism, deism etc.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #25 - January 20, 2011, 10:00 PM
    @ Islame

    Not exactly. A child will definitely have external influences as soon as it is born it is going to react with the outside world.
    It is impossible to not be influenced by your environment.
    It is a state before a child comes into this world, when it was still in the spiritual realm that it understood the Oneness of God.

    In Muslim sermons you will often hear an Imam telling Muslims to "come back to God" or "revert" back to God. This doesn't mean that they are no longer Muslims, but he is calling them back to that state.
    A Muslim in basic terms is a monotheist.
    This is another reason why Muslims do Dhikr (litany) to connect them back to that state.
    Abraham (as) was considered a Muslim because of rejecting partners with God. The Quran called him a Muslim Hanifan (upright) because he abided by His legislations
    As for the aspect of Muhammad (SAW) as a Messenger, this is seen as an acceptance of the revelations of God, and to abide by His Law.

    When a person takes a shahada, and recites that Muhammad is the final messenger, he/she is testifying by default that he believes in all of the previous Messengers.
    As he has to accept all aspects of the revelations that God communicated to all Messengers and Prophets who called to His Oneness. Disbelieving in some means to disregard all, since it has to be accepted in its entirety.

    So a Jew, who doesn't believe in Jesus as a Messenger has disbelieved in part of the revelation.
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #26 - January 20, 2011, 10:04 PM
    Quote from: AbaAbdillah on January 20, 2011, 10:00 PM
    A Muslim in basic terms is a monotheist.

    Are you saying that if I believe in monotheism but I believe all the prophets are frauds, then I am still a Muslim?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #27 - January 20, 2011, 10:07 PM
    aha ok it was prior to birth that we were Muslims Smiley.... yeah that sounds like a logic argument... Why would have we been born, if we weren't already "living" prior to that (or waiting to depart on our physical bodies)... Like the Pakistani philosopher that said "why would we die if there was no life after death?"...
    Quote from: FreeSoul007 on January 14, 2011, 05:00 AM
    Just look at the sun and the moon, rotating around the earth perfectly! Out of all the never ending space in the universe, the sun and moon ended up close to earth rotating around it perfectly.!!

  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #28 - January 20, 2011, 10:07 PM
    Also can you explain why a human by default might not believe God is an infinite set of spirits - some good, others bad?  Or polytheism, which by all accounts of recorded history, appears to be one of the oldest religion on record?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: "Revert" or "convert"?
     Reply #29 - January 20, 2011, 10:12 PM
    Quote from: AbaAbdillah on January 20, 2011, 06:03 PM
    I have my opinion and you have yours.


    So your opinion is that everyone on earth is born a Muslim, but has been led astray, and that to be a Muslim is conflated with the basic human condition, and that non Muslims are not fully realised human beings too, until they 'revert' to their natural state?

    My opinion (and the opinion of every non Muslim) is that that is laughable hubris, delusional, and quite bigoted too.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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