Difference between a critic and being hateful. Also why criticise at all?

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- Crunchy Cds
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Difference between a critic and being hateful. Also why criticise at all?
OP - January 24, 2011, 06:27 PM

Yay my first topic here (hope it's in the right place and is not a silly question). Two things I was wondering.
What's your belief on the fine line of being a critic and just being hateful towards that particular subject, be it Islam, religion or anything else. Can you still criticize something and not sound hateful? Or does it even really matter at all?

In regards to Islam and religion do we criticize just for our opinions to be heard by the masses, to make a valid point for argument sake? Or to convince someone to hope on board to our ideals? Or.. All of the above. What's your views on those both personally and in general

***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
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Re: Difference between a critic and being hateful. Also why criticise at all?
Reply #1 - January 24, 2011, 09:47 PM

As long as you don't judge an individual who identifies themselves as a "Muslim" or "Christian" or "Jew" or whatever.... it's all gravy.

You should be able to criticise the ridiculous aspects of the religion as much as you want. Actually you don't have to necessarily criticise per se. Just point it out and say you don't agree with it.

Welcome to the forum btw...

.
- z10
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Re: Difference between a critic and being hateful. Also why criticise at all?
Reply #2 - January 24, 2011, 10:03 PM

As long as everyone is polite and sincere, there is nothing wrong with criticism

At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
- cosmicdancer
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Re: Difference between a critic and being hateful. Also why criticise at all?
Reply #3 - January 24, 2011, 10:19 PM

I believe in moderation in all things. The best critique of anything is done with wisdom and empathy. Sadly the debate around Islam is dominated by the ignorant, the hysterical and the bigots.

I criticise because I want to. If I feel I strongly about something I want to be free to express myself. If it helps others, so be it - and if it pisses others off, so be it also!
- ChinaDoll
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Re: Difference between a critic and being hateful. Also why criticise at all?
Reply #4 - January 24, 2011, 10:20 PM

With religions such as Islam if you are a criticise them you are hateful , and if you criticise Christianity you are a hero and evidence of Islam's superiority over other religions .
In this present day criticising religion is still taboo and hateful to an extent but there are people who take the hateful approach for example Pat condell his sarcasm obviously won't help advise muslims the same with ZOMGitscriss . Dont get me wrong I love her videos actually she may be part of the reason why I left Islam along with other atheist utubers . But the same approach doesn't work with the majority . If there is thing nice I have learnt from Islam is how to give advise to others in a nice way .

"its fashionable to be an ex Muslim these days"
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Re: Difference between a critic and being hateful. Also why criticise at all?
Reply #5 - January 24, 2011, 10:39 PM

Hey Sakura,

Good question for a first topic, though I'm not sure where to start! I'll stick to being hateful about something you may wish to criticise. Let's first define what we mean by hatred. Thefreedictionary.com gives the definition "Intense animosity or hostility". I wouldn't have thought it is necessarily a problem if you feel intense animosity or hostility against something you wish to critisise, in fact that strength of emotion may provide the motivation to set about combating that against which you feel so strongly. It may drive you to spend hours researching the subject, perfecting your arguments or exposing flaws in the arguments of the subject's proponents.

However, there are a few issues worthy of consideration. Firstly, if you hate something, does the strength of emotion make it more difficult to view the subject in question objectively? Are you likely to make a fair assessment of the potential target of criticism? Maybe not. As with all emotions, whilst it may be utilised with good effect, it is always worth trying to step back from hatred and anger to consider your position with the greater sense of perspective that a calm mind brings. It can be very easy to become enraged by someone's inability to consider the views of others, so enraged that we too develop that same inability. It is tragic to become that which you hate. Then, there is the issue of your well-being. Is the hatred a transient state used to seek a solution to the identified problem, or does it become a chronic state of mind? If the latter, you are at risk of letting your emotions devour you, and of course the perceived problem that has aroused your ire in the first place remains unresolved. Also worthy of consideration, what is the effect of appearing hateful whilst arguing your case to others? Passion and emotion can, when rightly utilised, be very effective in persuading others. However, wild, unrestrained hatred and bitterness can really distract and detract from an argument, even if the points made are otherwise valid.

Just a few thoughts. Maybe you'd like to limit the question a little...or maybe you'd just like to see where people's musings take us, in which case its open-ended nature is just perfect
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Re: Difference between a critic and being hateful. Also why criticise at all?
Reply #6 - January 25, 2011, 01:46 AM

Ok Those responses made a lot of sense. It's kinda of a vague question to ask. I guess I'm kind of worried I'll turn into a ranting idiot if I over criticize anything. It's important to get facts straight to back up how you formulate your opinions to begin with so yeah ^_^

***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
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Re: Difference between a critic and being hateful. Also why criticise at all?
Reply #7 - January 25, 2011, 02:00 AM

Sakura02,

I think I remember you being over 18? If so then read post from member Mount A Bison and you will never worry again about how someone interprets your posts here.

Quote from: Shahid Raza on January 24, 2011, 09:47 PM
As long as you don't judge an individual who identifies themselves as a "Muslim" or "Christian" or "Jew" or whatever.... it's all gravy.

Did you mean to say that we should not criticize individuals simply because of their religion? In that case I agree. But if you say we should not criticize any individual by attributing some blame to his beliefs then, I think, I disagree.

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: Difference between a critic and being hateful. Also why criticise at all?
Reply #8 - January 25, 2011, 12:31 PM

The constructive critic in the cyber age is an exceedingly rare mammal. If he had a tail and swung from a tree he would be on the endangered species list. And for that let us be thankful. The only criticism from which I've profited in my life is the destructive kind. I’ve gone home battered and bruised and the little worse for wear to lay down my head. I was taught an object lesson. There's much to be said for discharging a round of canon fire, of hoisting the black flag and sending men to heaven.

Of course it mustn't be overdone because it loses what efficacy it has. One doesn’t want to be a hysteric. But every blue moon when the kids are soundly asleep, the wife luxuriating in the bath, and silence ghostly reigns, be a keyboard mercenary. I cherish my enemies. They keep me on my toes. They license my four letter words. More to the point, they keep me honest when I could well do without it. Truth, like matrimonial fidelity, is grossly overrated. And if the crashing thud of my enemy’s cudgels keeps the dementia away for a day, so much the worse for dementia. No two words in the English language are more sickly or more effeminate than “constructive criticism”.

The critic is a man who wants to make a noise in the world, who wants to grab folly by the neck collar and discombobulate it. For this noble end he needs an adversarial tone. Not a quiet whisper. He needs to bare his teeth and roar. Not to sooth and soften. No man with an IQ north of ten ever learned a wan emaciated damn from the constructive schoolmaster. All my important life lessons have been knocks on the head. And because they were directed at my head, instead of my heart, I will never forget.
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Re: Difference between a critic and being hateful. Also why criticise at all?
Reply #9 - January 25, 2011, 01:00 PM

My 2 cents:
"let firebrands be firebrands, and let diplomats be diplomats"

"Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

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- Mount A Bison
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Re: Difference between a critic and being hateful. Also why criticise at all?
Reply #10 - January 25, 2011, 01:04 PM

@Teapot

What happened to my friend Tabun? Was he collared by the Egyptian Polizei?
- ateapotist
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Re: Difference between a critic and being hateful. Also why criticise at all?
Reply #11 - January 25, 2011, 01:35 PM

@MAB:
Good question. Tabun has not been around for quite some time. It is possible that he fell into a state of depression grieving your departure from the forum and has not recovered since. Or it could be that he is concentrating on his studies in medicine (he said the female anatomy is beautiful ).

I doubt the Egyptian jaasoos see us apostates as a threat.

"Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

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Re: Difference between a critic and being hateful. Also why criticise at all?
Reply #12 - January 25, 2011, 02:45 PM

I believe in constructive criticism, and I definitely love the idea of criticising everything. I don't think anyone or anything should ever not be criticised. I would argue I think our own opinions and the opinions of others are all worthy of the same scrutiny.

I couldn't care less about the fine line between criticism and hate when it comes to religions, beliefs, cultural attitudes or views. I think in many cases, "hate" is used to exploit genuine criticism of beliefs and ideas, and it shows a personal investment in those ideas that stops those people from thinking rationally. I can criticise and hate Islam, Christianity or intolerant belief systems, and if someone wants to say I am being hateful then they're free to do so, but I think in many cases that "offense" I cause is probably as a result of their underlying insecurities at the fact that someone is actually pointing out the faults in their beliefs.

And I agree with above, everything in moderation. Having said that, I think we should distinguish non-physical ideas, values and beliefs that are not capable of feeling emotions, and human beings. Tread lightly when you're offending humans, I agree, but I don't need to respect a product of thought, and I don't expect people to respect my own thoughts.
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Re: Difference between a critic and being hateful. Also why criticise at all?
Reply #13 - January 25, 2011, 03:17 PM

I understand the idea of considering peoples feelings when criticising something they have said or something they hold dear. It makes sense. I get it. But it just isn’t in me. I can’t even be bothered to pretend to care. In fact, when someone complains about hurt feelings, it makes me want to hurt them more, on principle. You demote your existence in my eyes when you get fluster-fucked for no good reason. I have no time for simpering fools unless it is spent ridiculing them. We should all be robust enough to take a few insults on the chin in an adult world, especially if our own choices and ideas force peoples hand and cause people to react.

I am a person that draws lines and defends them. I take sides. I judge. I approve. I condemn. I am not comfortable sitting in the middle ground. My diplomacy dam is unstable. My respect is earned. I am tactful and gracious when needs be, but surface-deep civility and niceties are no currency with me. I respect courage, honour, integrity and deep passion. I wanna know what you really think, not what you think you ought to think. I wanna know what you love, what you hate. Talk to me. Say it. Write it out loud. I’ll be telling you what I love and what I hate whenever I feel like it, as often as I can. Nobody is forced to engage me. But I own my words. And so should everyone. Some things in this world are asking to be disrespected. When we put our ideas out there, we should take responsibility for the reaction they inspire in others.

In the arena of ideas, nobodies feelings are sacred. Not mine, not yours, not anyone’s.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: Difference between a critic and being hateful. Also why criticise at all?
Reply #14 - January 25, 2011, 04:23 PM

Quote from: Unechance on January 25, 2011, 02:45 PM
I believe in constructive criticism ...

You are my enemy. Please forward your address. I will put a note through your window attached to a brick.

Quote from: Ishina on January 25, 2011, 03:17 PM
I wanna know what you love, what you hate. Talk to me. Say it. Write it out loud.

You want to know what I think? Answer: I lofe view. Can I introduce to my family?

Quote from: ateapotist on January 25, 2011, 01:35 PM
@MAB:
Good question. Tabun has not been around for quite some time. It is possible that he fell into a state of depression grieving your departure from the forum and has not recovered since. Or it could be that he is concentrating on his studies in medicine (he said the female anatomy is beautiful ).

I doubt the Egyptian jaasoos see us apostates as a threat.

If the recent church bombings are any indication things are hotting up in Egypt. I thought he might have been taken hostage by the Death-to-the-Murtad crowd. Poor widdle thing. How do I contact him?
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