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 Topic: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam

 (Read 6262 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     OP - January 26, 2011, 03:58 PM

    I was reading in the philosophical section of one of our local forums and stumbled upon this thread:

    [url]http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php/304841-It-s-not-a-phobia-%E2%80%93-it-s-rational-to-fear-Islam[/url

    One of the Muslim guys posted this in that thread:
    Quote
    There is no punishment for apostasy in Islam. There are over 1 billion Muslims in the world. Name one apostate who was punished in a medieval manner. Just one. This is one of the biggest myths regarding Islam. During the early days of Islam, apostasy was almost always accompanied by treason, with devastating effects for the group that was sold out. The maximum penalty for treason under the shariah is death. There is no penalty for apostasy. The family rejection that apostates sometimes face is no different in Islam than with other faiths. The many converts to Islam can tell you all about it (like Tony Blair's sister-in-law).


    Some people seem to have a different idea of ISLAM than the majority of Muslims.

    I am registered there with my personal details, therefore did not want to respond.


  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #1 - January 26, 2011, 04:04 PM

    The point here is nobody is going to be executed if the threat is death or torture, they will just retract it.  Having said that..

    Name one apostate who was punished in a medieval manner. Just one.

    Some prominent recent examples of writers and activists killed because of apostasy claims include Mahmoud Mohammed Taha,[27] Faraj Foda,[28]  Ghorban Tourani, Necati Aydin, Uğur Yüksel
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam


    Quote
    There is no penalty for apostasy.

     
    Take a look at hadith & shariah law

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #2 - January 26, 2011, 04:17 PM

    It's true that there is difference on opinion within Muslim circles on this issue and generally the more fundamentalist types do advocate death and unfortunately they are the majority.

    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #3 - January 26, 2011, 04:38 PM

    Why should we even consider such an opinion? It clearly has nothing to do with reality. The person should be directed to do the research in sharia' and hadith, as Islame pointed out.

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #4 - January 26, 2011, 04:40 PM

    It's true that there is difference on opinion within Muslim circles on this issue and generally the more fundamentalist types do advocate death and unfortunately they are the majority.


    ^This.

  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #5 - January 26, 2011, 04:48 PM

    Difference of opinion in "Muslim circles" is a fact. So is a peaceful interpretation of Islam. However more often than not those defenders of peaceful Islam have very little knowledge of their religion. What is a "fundamentalist type" if not a true follower of mohamedanism?

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #6 - January 26, 2011, 05:03 PM

    Abdul Hakeem Murad is one of the most knowledgeable Muslims I know. If you combined the knowledge of ten of those backward long bearded Mullahs it would not amount to his level of knowledge.

    Yet he rejects the punishment for Apostasy.

    I see that you are of the opinion that there is something called "True" Islam.

    Personally I reject that notion that there is one single interpretation of Islam that can be regarded as "True" Islam.

    Islam has many traditions and always has had. One could argue that this or that group are closer to what Muhammad was preaching on a specific issue. But even then it will be a minefield since what Muhammad preached changed and contradicted itself even in his life-time.

    You might be interested in what I wrote here about the idea of a "True Islam"

    http://cosmicdancer1.blogspot.com/
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #7 - January 26, 2011, 05:18 PM

    Hassan,

    I read the post. Did I give you an impression that I am a  Muslim-hater?

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #8 - January 26, 2011, 05:21 PM

    Nope. Did I give the impression that you were?
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #9 - January 26, 2011, 05:28 PM

    Just a little, since your belief in no real Islam is closely intertwined with problems of Muslim-haters and the post you directed me to says that more often than not those who hate Muslims want to convince everyone that true Islam = Islam of the terrorists. I will leave this thread now and continue the discussion on Radical Islam thread, as I have not much more to say on apostasy.

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #10 - January 26, 2011, 05:32 PM

    Quote
    The Sharia is one of the most lenient legal systems in the world.


    Which planet is he on?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #11 - January 26, 2011, 05:33 PM

    Just a little, since your belief in no real Islam is closely intertwined with problems of Muslim-haters and the post you directed me to says that more often than not those who hate Muslims want to convince everyone that true Islam = Islam of the terrorists. I will leave this thread now and continue the discussion on Radical Islam thread, as I have not much more to say on apostasy.


    Then let me put your mind at ease - as I said in that same article:

    "Now I'm not saying that all those who consider there to be a 'True Islam' are haters and bigots - certainly not! It is a common and quite innocent mistake."
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #12 - January 26, 2011, 05:44 PM

    I've heard some muslims say there was a difference between religious apostasy and "political apostasy" ie treason as mentioned above and that the death penalty only applies to those who commit treason. I heard that ibn taymiyyah had the same opinion as well as some other prominent scholars (ex head of al azhar being another)

    Anyway I can't find the exact quote of ibn taymiyyah but found this:

    Quote
    In this respect, Ibn Taymiyah differentiated between two kinds of apostasy, an apostasy which does not cause harm to the Muslim society and an apostasy in which apostates wage war against Allah and His Messenger and spread mischief in the land. The repentance of the apostates in the first kind is accepted; while in the second kind, it is not if it occurs after the apostates have fallen into the power of the Muslim authority.


    http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1178724001992&pagename=Zone-English-Living_Shariah%2FLSELayout
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #13 - January 26, 2011, 05:54 PM

    Waging war on a mythical dead guy and his desert phantom friend is punishable by death. Unless you repent and swear allegiance to a mythical dead guy and his desert phantom friend.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #14 - January 26, 2011, 05:59 PM

    Then let me put your mind at ease - as I said in that same article:

    "Now I'm not saying that all those who consider there to be a 'True Islam' are haters and bigots - certainly not! It is a common and quite innocent mistake."


    So condescending, dude Wink

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #15 - January 26, 2011, 06:01 PM


    Some people seem to have a different idea of ISLAM than the majority of Muslims.


    Thats because some Muslims live in different places and can see first hand how evil the supposed punishment would be, thus they have no choice but to (as always) pick and choose what the book says and even putting their own spin on it...spin which isn't even hinted at in the book... Roll Eyes
    It's pathetic and hypocritical, but it's a step in the right direction, so I'm almost indifferent to it.
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #16 - January 26, 2011, 06:24 PM

    Which planet is he on?


    In the theoretical Daw'ah version of Shariah it is supposedly more strict on evidence and testimony than Western style justice systems.  The amount of witnesses required are supposedly a check against a 1 on 1 he said she said situation and evidence is supposed to provide absolute proof of a crime instead of circumstantial evidence.  The heinous punishments in the Shariah are supposed to only be used as a last resort such as death for apostasy.  It always comes down to this though

    1.  That "theory" of Shariah has never been implemented neither in mediaeval nor modern times
    2.  That theory of Shariah is impossible as a practical point of view
    3.  The organizations and groups advocating Shariah law always seem to go the other route of harsh quick punishments without evidence or a sibilance of equitably in positions
    4.  Why is there even a punishment for apostasy anyways? Can people make up their own minds about something or do we have to treat them like mindless automatons who can't think or reason for themselves?         

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #17 - January 26, 2011, 06:36 PM

    Which planet is he on?

    Planet of denial..

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #18 - January 26, 2011, 06:41 PM

    Planet of denial  Cheesy

    mythical dead guy and his desert phantom friend  Cheesy

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #19 - January 26, 2011, 07:05 PM

    So condescending, dude Wink


    And what would you call this:

    What is a "fundamentalist type" if not a true follower of mohamedanism?

  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #20 - January 26, 2011, 08:25 PM


    The socalled "Ground Zero Mosque" has got a new front person, Imam Abdallah Adhami, who has the following to say about apostasy :

    Quote
    Ground Zero imam: 'Apostates against Islam must be jailed'
    'You do not have the right to spread this conviction, lest you pollute others'

    Those who leave Islam and preach against the Muslim religion must be jailed, declared the imam who has become the new face of the proposed Islamic cultural center near Ground Zero in New York City.

    "If someone leaves the din, leaves the path privately, they cannot be touched. If someone preaches about apostasy, or preaches their views, they're jailed," stated Imam Abdallah Adhami in a November lecture obtained and reviewed by WND.

    Adhami was discussing the Quranic view of apostasy, or Muslims who decide to leave the Islamic religion.

    According to Shariah, or Islamic law, the consensus view in Sunni Islam is that a male apostate must be put to death unless he suffers from a mental disorder or converted against his will.

    There are, however, differing views on the subject, with some contemporary Islamic scholars differentiating between public and private apostasy and arguing for actions ranging from death to nothing.

    Adhami, speaking to a non-Muslim audience, claimed Islamic law only calls for punishment for public apostates and that most Islamic scholars demand only that public apostates be jailed as opposed to killed.

    He claimed Islam was "revolutionary" for purportedly only punishing those who preach apostasy publicly, as opposed to other religions, which, he claimed, punish both public and private apostates.

    "The Quran distinguishes between public and private apostasy," he said, failing to note most medieval Islamic scholars did not make such a distinction.

    Adhami admitted, "Yes, many jurists said [public apostates] have to be killed. … But the position of the state was the position of Islamic scholars – they must be jailed so they are contained."

    He said, "In Islam, in the Quran, theoretically, if you look over the Quran from cover to cover, you literally have the right to the choice to reject God's message. The only thing you do not have the right to do is to spread this conviction, lest you, quote unquote, pollute others."


    More here : http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=254789


    Shariah, Apostasy, Music and interacting with non-Muslims - Shaykh Abdullah Adhami
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ku_HAgqBZk&feature=player_embedded









    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #21 - January 26, 2011, 08:37 PM

    Phew, that's a relief! We only face prison, guys!  Afro
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #22 - January 26, 2011, 09:29 PM

    And what would you call this:


    What is a "fundamentalist type" if not a true follower of mohamedanism?


    I would say this is highly disrespectful towards believers, even more if they knew that I realize very clearly that they prefer to be called Muslims. I personally think it is quite accurate, from an atheist perspective, to call them Mohamadans, implying they follow Muhammad. It is condescending to Muslims I am sure, but I hope I did not offend you, Hassan? There's nothing wrong with being respectful, but if your opponent insists you use their vocabulary, then maybe set their rules, (because their view is holy and yours is dirt), then how can you win the argument?

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #23 - January 26, 2011, 09:54 PM

    You can't be that stupid.  

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #24 - January 26, 2011, 10:01 PM

    yes

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #25 - January 26, 2011, 10:04 PM

    I guess that settles that then.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #26 - January 27, 2011, 12:31 AM


    Can you link to different source?

    That is a Churchie site, and I suspect there may be some misinformation.

    Phew, that's a relief! We only face prison, guys!  Afro


    Watch out for MAB.

     Terror couch

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #27 - January 27, 2011, 01:13 AM

    A couple of notes on apostasy in the Shari'ah that I've made:

    Tafsir al-Jalalayn

    Therein Imam al-Suyuti states:

    That you do not kill any person that Allah has made inviolate, except by right --  "In other words in retaliation for someone killed or the implementation of the death penalty for apostasy or the stoning of adulterers." -- p. 321, on Q. 6:151

    Tafsir Ibn Kathir

    "Whoever does it (unlawful marriage) afterwards has, in fact, renegaded from his religion and thus, he should be killed, and his property given to the Islamic treasury."  -- Vol. 2 p. 34, on Q. 4:22

    And commenting on Q. 6:151, Ibn Kathir provides ahadith from Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, al-Nasa'i, Ahmad, Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah, which stipulate that one of the instances in which a Muslim is to be killed is if he apostatises from Islam.

    Tafsir al-Qurtubi

    "As for the apostates, the only options available concerning them are execution or repentance." -- Vol 1. p. 493, on Q. 2:190

    "Scholars disagree about whether or not apostates are asked to repent. One group says that they are asked to repent and, if they do not, they are killed. Some say they are given an hour and others a month. Others say that they are asked to repent three times, and that is the view of Malik. Al-Hasan said that they are asked a hundred times. It is also said that they are killed without being asked to repent" -- Vol. 1 p. 549-550, on Q. 2:217

    Ma'ariful Qur'an

    "That is why it is only an apostate (murtadd) who is, according to the Islamic Shariah, condemned to capital punishment, and not an outright disbeliever." -- Vol. 1 p. 230, on Q. 2:63

    "In short, the fate of an apostate is worse than that of an original disbeliever. This is why Jizyah can be accepted from an unbeliever while a male apostate who does not return to Islam is killed. If the apostate is a woman, she is imprisoned for life." -- Vol. 1 p. 538, on Q. 2:218

    Umdat al-Salik

    "o8.1: When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed." -- p. 595

    "o8.2: In such a case it is obligatory for the Caliph (A: or his representative) to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does, it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed." -- pp. 595-596

    Tafseer-e-Usmani

    "Do not slay a person without the permission of the Shariah -- the slaying of the murderer, married fornicator and the apostate from Islam are enjoined by the Shariah according to the True Traditions, and the Imams of fiqh are unanimous about this law." -- Vol. 1 p. 638, on Q. 6:151 (Q. 6:152 according to the reading used)

    "According to Imam Ahmad, Imam al-Shafi'i and Imam Malik, it is the obligation of the Islamic state to slay the offender of Salat if he does not repent and begin to pray. Imam Abu Hanifa (R.A.) says that he should be beaten and sentenced to confinement until he dies or repents. However, not one of these Imams has allowed to leave the way of a Muslim free who does not offer Salat." -- Vol. 1 p. 819, on Q. 9:5
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #28 - January 27, 2011, 01:40 AM

    @Hassan

    Quote
    Abdul Hakeem Murad is one of the most knowledgeable Muslims I know. If you combined the knowledge of ten of those backward long bearded Mullahs it would not amount to his level of knowledge.

    Yet he rejects the punishment for Apostasy.


    No doubt he's smarter than these semi-literate zealots masquerading as scholars, but the sad fact is that Islamic jurisprudence hasn't been formed by congenial, liberal-minded, Western-educated Timothy Winter-types. It has been (as you know better than I) founded by medieval-minded theocrats with a vested interest in enforcing and imposing their orthodoxy onto the masses.

    Quote
    I see that you are of the opinion that there is something called "True" Islam.

    Personally I reject that notion that there is one single interpretation of Islam that can be regarded as "True" Islam.


    Clearly there is no such thing as 'True Islam.' It's a fiction espoused only by individuals who are ignorant of Islam and those Muslims who believe in the single, saved sect. Nevertheless, there certainly are predominant strains of Islam, and it is those combined that form what is called, although perhaps loosely, 'orthodox' Islam. But it is characteristic of these orthodox  groups that they all mandate the death penalty for apostasy (for the male apostate, at least), and are in consensus on the matter, and this they equate with a direct injunction from the Qur'an itself in terms of its legislative value.
  • Re: No Punishment for Apostasy in Islam
     Reply #29 - January 27, 2011, 01:48 AM

    In the theoretical Daw'ah version of Shariah it is supposedly more strict on evidence and testimony than Western style justice systems.


    In theory, it's a lot of things. In reality, it empowers an orthadox clerical elite who rule with chain and whip and keeps ruthless religious police at their beck and call. It’s main instrument of keeping order isn’t the system of law and due process, but the atmosphere of fear it breeds and nurtures.

    It is lenient on spousal abuse, the rights of women, gays, and children, and is quite accommodating with general intolerance and discrimination. Maybe that’s what he meant by ‘lenient’.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »