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Theme Changer

 Topic: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq

 (Read 7255 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     OP - January 31, 2011, 09:47 AM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aix9AGl5hz4

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #1 - January 31, 2011, 10:00 AM

    ..

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #2 - January 31, 2011, 03:52 PM

    @Islame  Ibn Warraq says " West liberates women", but western women say " Islam liberates women!"  Huh?
    Who's lying?  Roll Eyes



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #3 - January 31, 2011, 04:05 PM

    @Islame  Ibn Warraq says " West liberates women", but western women say " Islam liberates women!"  Huh?
    Who's lying?  Roll Eyes


    What the claimed liberation entails seems to be pretty blurry when it comes to being a muslim, something tells me it has something to do with sunday mornings, a burqa and a lack of makeup, lulz
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #4 - January 31, 2011, 09:17 PM

    @Islame  Ibn Warraq says " West liberates women", but western women say " Islam liberates women!"  Huh?
    Who's lying?  Roll Eyes


    Western women who say Islam liberates are either ill informed or have psychological problems.
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #5 - January 31, 2011, 09:21 PM

    Western women who say Islam liberates are either ill informed or have psychological problems.

    serious e psychological problems... as the new Imam of New  Ground Zero mosque imam Abdallah Adhami  said " Gays Are Gay Because Of 'Violent Emotional Or Sexual Abuse'"  in a similar way may these women were abused ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #6 - January 31, 2011, 09:29 PM

    serious e psychological problems... as the new Imam of New  Ground Zero mosque imam Abdallah Adhami

    Where did Feisal Rauf go?

    He wasn't a bad guy.

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #7 - January 31, 2011, 09:29 PM

    What.
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #8 - January 31, 2011, 09:31 PM

    Western women who say Islam liberates are either ill informed or have psychological problems.


    War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.  Wink
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #9 - January 31, 2011, 10:21 PM

    Ibn Warraq's a curious man. The main thrust of his book is that Freedom's Land is better than Absurdistan because the West has a tradition of self-criticism which the towelheads don't. No question. But why does he proceed to berate the likes of Edward Said in his work for doing precisely that, namely training his searchlight on the follies of colonialism and militarism?

    Another person may contend that he suffers from a bad case of cognitive dissonance, but since I don't know what that means I will refrain. Go, Warraq, go!

     there should be a drinking game for how many times Said can say Orientalism or Orient in his book Orientalism.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #10 - January 31, 2011, 11:00 PM

    War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.  Wink


    Indeed! But only if you were dropped down the stairs as a kid and you happened to land on your head! Cheesy Cheesy



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #11 - January 31, 2011, 11:24 PM

    Western women who say Islam liberates are either ill informed or have psychological problems.


    Is the west facing a severe shortage of psychologists/psychiatrists?
    Looks like,because a lot of people, who specialize in English literature and Womens studies,[ mysmilie_977] seem to be writing books on psychology these days.
    If the psychological problems are not taken care of true information becomes 'ill' by the time it's registered in the brain.



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #12 - January 31, 2011, 11:28 PM

     Ibn Warraq's animating goal is to supress the very virtues he claims maketh us great by vilifying those who excercise the faculty of self-criticism.
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #13 - January 31, 2011, 11:38 PM

    Quote
    I think Said was much too soft on Islam


    Probably that's why he criticized him. Was it a deliberate blind spot?



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #14 - January 31, 2011, 11:46 PM

    I would say that western women that convert are suffering severe self esteem issues. It's so much easier to put a bag over your head and hide, than actually deal with your problems.

    Whenever I hear a western convert explain their reasoning behind wanting to wear Islamic dress, it's cringe worthy stuff.
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #15 - February 01, 2011, 12:05 AM

    @Deusvult

    I think Said was much too soft on Islam but he strikes one as more cosmopolitan than Warraq, more cultivated, more prodigiously well read. Ibn Warraq's animating goal is to supress the very virtues he claims maketh us great by vilifying those who excercise the faculty of self-criticism. What he wants is no just accounting of the vicissitudes of history, the good, the bad and the very, very ugly. What he yearns for is hagiography. If Said, a Maronite Christian, felt it was not his place to trash talk the followers of the Prophet, at least the man wrote like an angel. If anybody can read Warraq's prose without squinting laboriously and having lots of tea breaks you can do something I cannot.


    Oh I agree, I was just being light hearted, poking fun at his prodigious use of the the word and related words in a book with the same word as a title. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #16 - February 01, 2011, 12:09 AM

    cool
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #17 - February 01, 2011, 12:13 AM

    Well said. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #18 - February 01, 2011, 12:13 AM

    That;s it.
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #19 - February 01, 2011, 12:14 AM

    Only in Catholic approved positions. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #20 - February 01, 2011, 12:24 AM

    Which Catholic father touched you when and where?
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #21 - February 01, 2011, 12:44 AM

    It was the nuns  mysmilie_977

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #22 - February 01, 2011, 12:48 AM

    I would say that western women that convert are suffering severe self esteem issues. It's so much easier to put a bag over your head and hide, than actually deal with your problems.

    Cheesy

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #23 - February 01, 2011, 12:57 AM

    I would say that western women that convert are suffering severe self esteem issues. It's so much easier to put a bag over your head and hide, than actually deal with your problems.

    Whenever I hear a western convert explain their reasoning behind wanting to wear Islamic dress, it's cringe worthy stuff.


    I'm tired of the two main themes of this forum: Muslim bashing and (moderate) Islamic apologia, can you not find a middle ground that has 1) respect for humanity and 2) room for harsh criticism of religion?

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #24 - February 01, 2011, 01:47 AM

    ? Please rephrase.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #25 - February 01, 2011, 01:59 AM

    done

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #26 - February 01, 2011, 02:33 AM

    Ibn Warraq's a curious man. The main thrust of his book is that Freedom's Land is better than Absurdistan because the West has a tradition of self-criticism which the towelheads don't. No question. But why does he proceed to berate the likes of Edward Said in his work for doing precisely that, namely training his searchlight on the follies of colonialism and militarism?

    Another person may contend that he suffers from a bad case of cognitive dissonance, but since I don't know what that means I will refrain. Go, Warraq, go!

    Because he believes Said's work is dishonest.

    Warraq is one of several people who criticize Said's book:


    Orientalism and other works by Said sparked a wide variety of controversy and criticism.[51] Ernest Gellner argued that Said's contention that the West had dominated the East for more than 2,000 years was unsupportable, noting that until the late 17th century the Ottoman Empire had posed a serious threat to Europe.[52] Mark Proudman notes that Said had claimed that the British Empire extended from Egypt to India in the 1880s, when in fact the Ottoman and Persian Empires intervened.[53] Others argued out that even at the height of the imperial era, European power in the East was never absolute, and remained heavily dependent on local collaborators, who were frequently subversive of imperial aims.[54] Another criticism is that the areas of the Middle East on which Said had concentrated, including Palestine and Egypt, were poor examples for his theory, as they came under direct European control only for a relatively short period in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. These critics suggested that Said devoted much less attention to more apt examples, including the British Raj in India, and Russia’s dominions in Asia, because Said was more interested in making political points about the Middle East.[55]

    Strong criticism of Said's critique of Orientalism came from academic Orientalists, including some of Eastern backgrounds. Albert Hourani, Robert Graham Irwin, Nikki Keddie, Bernard Lewis,[56][57] and Kanan Makiya addressed what Keddie retrospectively calls "some unfortunate consequences" of Said's Orientalism on the perception and status of their scholarship.[nb 2] Bernard Lewis in particular was often at odds with Said following the publication of Orientalism, in which Said singled out Lewis as a "perfect exemplification" of an "Establishment Orientalist" whose work "purports to be objective liberal scholarship but is in reality very close to being propaganda against his subject material".[60] Lewis answered with several essays in response, and was joined by other scholars, such as Maxime Rodinson, Jacques Berque, Malcolm Kerr, Aijaz Ahmad, and William Montgomery Watt, who also regarded Orientalism as a deeply flawed account of Western scholarship.[61]

    Some of Said's academic critics argue that Said made no attempt to distinguish between writers of very different types: such as on the one hand the poet Goethe (who never travelled in the East), the novelist Flaubert (who briefly toured Egypt), Ernest Renan (whose work is widely regarded as tainted by racism), and on the other scholars such as Edward William Lane who was fluent in Arabic.[62] According to these critics, their common European origins and attitudes overrode such considerations in Said's mind; Said constructed a stereotype of Europeans.[63] The critic Robert Irwin writes that Said ignored the domination of 19th century Oriental studies by Germans and Hungarians, from countries that did not possess an Eastern empire.[64]

    Such critics accuse Said of creating a monolithic "Occidentalism" to oppose to the "Orientalism" of Western discourse, arguing that he failed to distinguish between the paradigms of Romanticism and the Enlightenment; that he ignored the widespread and fundamental differences of opinion among western scholars of the Orient; that he failed to acknowledge that many Orientalists (such as William Jones) were more concerned with establishing kinship between East and West than with creating "difference", and who had often made discoveries that would provide the foundations for anti-colonial nationalism.[65] More generally, critics argue that Said and his followers fail to distinguish between Orientalism in the media and popular culture (for instance the portrayal of the Orient in such films as Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom) and academic studies of Oriental languages, literature, history and culture by Western scholars (whom, it is argued, they tar with the same brush).[66][67]

    Said's critics argue that by making ethnicity and cultural background the test of authority and objectivity in studying the Orient, Said drew attention to the question of his own identity as a Palestinian and as a "Subaltern".[68] Given Said's largely Anglophone upbringing and education at an elite school in Cairo, the fact that he spent most of his adult life in the United States, and his prominent position in American academia, his own arguments that "any and all representations … are embedded first in the language and then in the culture, institutions and political ambience of the representer … [and are] interwoven with a great many other things besides the 'truth', which is itself a representation" [69] could be said to disenfranchise him from writing about the Orient himself. Hence these critics claim that the excessive relativism of Said and his followers trap them in a "web of solipsism",[70] unable to talk of anything but "representations", and denying the existence of any objective truth

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Said#Criticism
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #27 - February 01, 2011, 02:34 AM

    Is the west facing a severe shortage of psychologists/psychiatrists?
    Looks like,because a lot of people, who specialize in English literature and Womens studies,[ mysmilie_977] seem to be writing books on psychology these days.
    If the psychological problems are not taken care of true information becomes 'ill' by the time it's registered in the brain.


    Agree
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #28 - February 01, 2011, 02:39 AM

    Quote
    Such critics accuse Said of creating a monolithic "Occidentalism" to oppose to the "Orientalism" of Western discourse, arguing that he failed to distinguish between the paradigms of Romanticism and the Enlightenment; that he ignored the widespread and fundamental differences of opinion among western scholars of the Orient; that he failed to acknowledge that many Orientalists (such as William Jones) were more concerned with establishing kinship between East and West than with creating "difference", and who had often made discoveries that would provide the foundations for anti-colonial nationalism.[65] More generally, critics argue that Said and his followers fail to distinguish between Orientalism in the media and popular culture (for instance the portrayal of the Orient in such films as Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom) and academic studies of Oriental languages, literature, history and culture by Western scholars (whom, it is argued, they tar with the same brush).[66][67]


    This part is interesting. I have thought about making a thread called Occidentalism, because I feel that a lot of Islamic apologists and Muslim pundits in Islamic countries make the same mistake if not more so of characterizing "The West" as a monolithic entity with its various lechous stereotypes.  How many times have we heard about "the West" and its obsession with sex, drugs, partying, etc. I have found that many British Muslims are very critical of their version of the west, but without analyzing or understanding the variations in the West, and in their own way create a sort of Occidentalism.  

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: The West is Best - Ibn Warraq
     Reply #29 - February 01, 2011, 03:03 AM

    To be honest I wonder where Said got his knowledge of Orientalism because academic credentials are in literature, not Oriental studies. He was not an Oriental Academic.
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