Ideas We Kill

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Ideas We Kill
OP - February 01, 2011, 09:45 PM

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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #1 - February 01, 2011, 11:00 PM

You covet the warm spot of the poster of the month. When you are on top don't forget who nominated your ass. This gem of a thread is doomed, you made a mistake in your target audience. Anyone who understands the rants has nothing to add. Nothing is left unanswered and there's no question at the end of it all. Unless anything with a "?" is a question. Many.

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #2 - February 01, 2011, 11:26 PM

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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #3 - February 01, 2011, 11:59 PM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on February 01, 2011, 11:26 PM
why men invest their ideas, if such it may be called, with so much emotion. Thoughts are welcome.

Because they want to make the world a better place

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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #4 - February 02, 2011, 12:19 AM

Well let's agree first that not all ideas, noble as they may be, are invested with equal emotion.

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #5 - February 02, 2011, 12:25 AM

It gets even worse when one realises that being wrong is a definitive statement without certainty. Being wrong atleast offers a clean break, something that definately is not the case - perhaps from here one can begin to build a system of ideas that doesn't trespass into the "wrong".
But, to paraphrase Springsteen, what of the man that doubts what he is sure of, in both directions? What of the man that cannot even be sure that he is wrong? Where does one go from there?

At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #6 - February 02, 2011, 12:30 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on February 01, 2011, 11:26 PM
On topic: Not sure I conveyed my point, but I wanna explore the concept of being wrong and why men invest their ideas, if such it may be called, with so much emotion. Thoughts are welcome.

If you were to follow Dan Dennett's school of thought, you might say that religions, political ideologies, and other ideas are memeplexes, and like viruses of the mind, they use the human mind (which is a great copying machine) to copy themselves to successive generations. The memeplex (like the virus) doesn't give a shit about its host, except where it affects its (i.e. the memeplex's) chances of survival and propagation.

I'm sure you've watched this video:

Dan Dennett: Ants, terrorism, and the awesome power of memes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzGjEkp772s

PS: I will add some more original thoughts tomorrow, if I think of any.

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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #7 - February 02, 2011, 12:37 AM

@ateapotist

The question is, are Daniel Dennett's beliefs likewise nothing more than memes? And if they are such, are they worth holding on to?

I don't agree that beliefs are entirely reducible to being mere concepts that attach themselves to people and propagate themselves thusly, although some may well be. There are different kinds of beliefs, for a start, like a priori truths like 2+2=4. This isn't a belief that propagates itself and infects a host in the random fashion of a contagion; rather, the 'host' holds the belief because one's faculties demonstrate that it is an accurate representation of reality.
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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #8 - February 02, 2011, 12:39 AM

Quote from: IsLame on February 01, 2011, 11:59 PM
Because they want to make the world a better place

really? I don' think its about the world at all, its about one's self satisfaction.

Quote from: Mount A Bison on February 01, 2011, 11:26 PM
why men invest their ideas, if such it may be called, with so much emotion. Thoughts are welcome.

and my POV on this is satisfaction, all our actions are based on satisfying ourselves and it includes pitching new ideas, now what satisfies a human's mind varies

"Religion is the purposeful suspension of critical thinking" Bill Maher
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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #9 - February 02, 2011, 09:37 PM

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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #10 - February 02, 2011, 09:39 PM

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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #11 - February 02, 2011, 09:41 PM

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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #12 - February 02, 2011, 09:46 PM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on February 01, 2011, 11:26 PM
why men invest their ideas, if such it may be called, with so much emotion. Thoughts are welcome.

Fame
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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #13 - February 02, 2011, 09:56 PM

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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #14 - February 02, 2011, 10:02 PM

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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #15 - February 02, 2011, 10:11 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on February 02, 2011, 12:37 AM
@ateapotist

The question is, are Daniel Dennett's beliefs likewise nothing more than memes? And if they are such, are they worth holding on to?

I don't agree that beliefs are entirely reducible to being mere concepts that attach themselves to people and propagate themselves thusly, although some may well be. There are different kinds of beliefs, for a start, like a priori truths like 2+2=4. This isn't a belief that propagates itself and infects a host in the random fashion of a contagion; rather, the 'host' holds the belief because one's faculties demonstrate that it is an accurate representation of reality.

Can we draw a distinction between matters of contention and universally held ideas? Mathematics is a stringent science with rigid mechanisms of quality control. Step out the domain of science and into the humanities in which the notions which most conquer the race are those most full of doubt. Set aside raw data and grapple somewhat with passion. But steady now, don't let it mount you.
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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #16 - February 02, 2011, 10:12 PM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on February 01, 2011, 09:45 PM
Question of the day: How many times have you changed your dinner arrangements?

I have changed snacking arrangements, lunch arrangements, breakfast arrangment.
but a dinner arrangement...what does it say about a person if they change those too often? Open to change can be a good thing, but too flighty can be a sign of weak will

Quote from: Mount A Bison on February 02, 2011, 09:41 PM
The trouble with your gang is that you want to reduce everything to evolution. I can't relate to a memeplex. What a horrible word. Completely soulless. For shame, teapot, for shame. I've always been a creationist myself. I believe in tangible things grounded in cement. Give me angels with mighty wing spans and demons afrolic and the intrigues of the high gods. Them I can envision. How can you relate to such a feeble thing as a meme? This won’t do. The Godless need a new language with flowers blooming out of it. I refuse to engage with the unweildy jargon spawned by the merchants of rationality like that santa in the video. What could be more vulgar than empiricism? You better retract it Teapot. I will come to get you.

....

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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #17 - February 02, 2011, 10:18 PM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on February 02, 2011, 10:02 PM
@Isabel

You are a funny lass. One can tell when a person has not read the OP by the observation that they always quote the same one liner everybody else has quoted. You are the embodiment of the Emoticon Age, the epoch of human history where no post more damanding than such as are generously sprinkled with smileys is read. How does that feel my lovely?
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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #18 - February 02, 2011, 10:23 PM

Quote from: Ephemeral on February 02, 2011, 10:12 PM
I have changed snacking arrangements, lunch arrangements, breakfast arrangment.
but a dinner arrangement...what does it say about a person if they change those too often? Open to change can be a good thing, but too flighty can be a sign of weak will

How can I believe that you've changed your fervently held convictions a thousand times when you've never changed your knickers? That night we had was sweet, but if you want another give it a spin in the wash.
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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #19 - February 02, 2011, 10:26 PM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on February 02, 2011, 09:41 PM
The trouble with your gang is that you want to reduce everything to evolution. I can't relate to a memeplex. What a horrible word. Completely soulless. For shame, teapot, for shame. I've always been a creationist myself. I believe in tangible things grounded in cement. Give me angels with mighty wing spans and demons afrolic and the intrigues of the high gods. Them I can envision. How can you relate to such a feeble thing as a meme? This won’t do. The Godless need a new language with flowers blooming out of it. I refuse to engage with the unweildy jargon spawned by the merchants of rationality like that santa in the video. What could be more vulgar than empiricism? You better retract it Teapot. I will come to get you.

lol @ Santa in the video!

Memetics is one way to look at it. You got a better way? I realise it is a bit vague and almost a catch-all term. Nobody said it worked exactly how biological evolution worked.

"Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #20 - February 02, 2011, 10:30 PM

Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on February 02, 2011, 12:19 AM
Well let's agree first that not all ideas, noble as they may be, are invested with equal emotion.

The conception of an idea seeded in the throes of passion, like its birth, is not a noble thing. Most show strong signs of congenital deformities. What makes you utter such a thing?
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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #21 - February 02, 2011, 10:33 PM

Quote from: ateapotist on February 02, 2011, 10:26 PM
lol @ Santa in the video!

Memetics is one way to look at it. You got a better way? I realise it is a bit vague and almost a catch-all term. Nobody said it worked exactly how biological evolution worked.

It is not vague. It is ugly. These daft neologisms have no place in the English language. That Dawkins is more trouble than he's worth. Memetics he says. You are a complete loon.
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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #22 - February 02, 2011, 10:34 PM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on February 02, 2011, 09:56 PM
Very cute. The skeptic is a miserable creature. When I am dictator, how I shall flog him. The point I'm advancing is not a thoroughgoing skepticism. What tickles my interest is the notion of ideas as property. To yield them is to suffer a palpable loss, in stature, in worth, in social standing. The intersection of psychology and fallibility is what I'm gunning for. Theoretically speaking, nobody will shy from professing that no man born of woman is free of mistakes, large and small. But in the practical realm this of course is nonsense. Men never err. The tenacity with they fight to retain their convictions is a living testament.

You are right, decisions have to be made and personas have to be defended.
However, as far as emotions go, epistemic poverty is frighteningly potent.

At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #23 - February 02, 2011, 10:41 PM

Quote from: z10 on February 02, 2011, 10:34 PM
You are right, decisions have to be made and personas have to be defended.
However, as far as emotions go, epistemic poverty is frighteningly potent.

Please explain.
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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #24 - February 03, 2011, 12:51 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on February 02, 2011, 09:39 PM
To my mind self-gratification is the key to the whole thing. Beyond all other considerations in life, beyond what is good, what is beautiful and what is true, the driving motor of man is contenting his own spirit. The inner master demands exultation. Conceding that he is fallible is to war on his vanity. This is unacceptable.

I believe that nothing else animates a person than gratifying his ego, from the moment he swings his feet out of bed to the moment he lays down his head. Which is not a discreditable thing. The ego is the man. I do not seek to abolish it. Those in whom it is fully lacking commonly fall into two camps. The resurrection-men whose want of self-regard is so complete that what they lack in self-love is made up for by God’s high opinion. And the man who is denuded of it to the point of self-loathing.

But why?

(Hint: it all boils down to the selfish gene theory, my sugarplum. )

"Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #25 - February 03, 2011, 12:55 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on February 02, 2011, 09:41 PM
The trouble with your gang is that you want to reduce everything to evolution. I can't relate to a memeplex. What a horrible word. Completely soulless. For shame, teapot, for shame. I've always been a creationist myself. I believe in tangible things grounded in cement. Give me angels with mighty wing spans and demons afrolic and the intrigues of the high gods. Them I can envision. How can you relate to such a feeble thing as a meme? This won’t do. The Godless need a new language with flowers blooming out of it. I refuse to engage with the unweildy jargon spawned by the merchants of rationality like that santa in the video. What could be more vulgar than empiricism? You better retract it Teapot. I will come to get you.

You mean like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZK5tCY39x0

"Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #26 - February 03, 2011, 02:31 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on February 02, 2011, 10:30 PM
The conception of an idea seeded in the throes of passion, like its birth, is not a noble thing. Most show strong signs of congenital deformities. What makes you utter such a thing?

I'm not sure, Mickey, if I am getting old or you are, but I think it's the latter. All that was implied in my post was that for ideas to be worthy of euthanasia, they had to be considered noble by the possessor to begin with.

Now, concede that this is a failed thread before it gets out of hand. Also, please email to me the OP with words: "Thanks, Alex, I really enjoyed reading this, can't wait to read more of your work. Thanks again, Yours Sincerely, Mount a Bison." (I was going to use it in my private blog just to fill up the space and it would help to avoid future misunderstandings, OK?)

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #27 - February 03, 2011, 08:35 PM

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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #28 - February 03, 2011, 08:39 PM

@Teapot

You like heavy metal? Fascinating. I once dated a babe in college who rocked her head to Iron Maiden. I kicked her out of bed instantly. Totally unacceptable.
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Re: Ideas We Kill
Reply #29 - February 03, 2011, 09:10 PM

I have changed many ideas in my lifetime. Most were allowed to wither away on their own and only some had the plug pulled and even fewer resulted in a new phone book. I did not know that in your former life you considered Salafi beliefs not noble, thus I retract my platitudes.

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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