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Theme Changer

 Topic: The expanding universe

 (Read 20768 times)
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  • The expanding universe
     OP - February 06, 2011, 02:17 PM

    لَمُوسِعُونَ

    lamuwsi'auwna

    Seems to mean "made very big", is that correct?
    http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?root=wsE#(51:47:5)

    I looked for another Arabic word which would mean to increase in size in 3 dimensions but couldn't find anything, could someone offer a suggestion?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #1 - February 06, 2011, 09:10 PM

    It looks from other examples and in Lane's Lexicon that this verb (وسع wasi'a) means to have capacity to encompass (like a container) or to make enough such capacity (enlarge to make enough room). It's basically about having enough room to contain something. See the bottom right corner here:

    studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000306.pdf

    and continuing on the next page:

    studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000307.pdf

    (add www - I can't post links as it's only my first post (yay) )

    In 51:47 it seems to mean ample space makers (active participle so it means the doer of the verb).
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #2 - February 06, 2011, 09:52 PM

    Really, I think the root word just means 'wide,' 'broad,' 'expansive,' as in the Arabic word 'wasi3,' meaning wide.

    I don't think this is talking about the expanding universe at all.

    Firstly, look at the context:

    [51:47]
    And heaven -- We built it with might, and We extend it wide.

    [51:48]
    And the earth -- We spread it forth; O excellent Smoothers!

    [51:49]
    And of everything created We two kinds; haply you will remember

    [51:50]
    Therefore flee unto God! I am a clear warner from Him to you.

    [51:51]
    And set not up with God another god; I am a clear warner from Him to you.

    This pattern occurs frequently in the Qur'an. It asserts Allah's 'tawhid,' showing that he is the only creator of these things, and it therefore concludes that he alone is fit to be worshipped. Similar stuff can be found in 88:17-25 & 79:27-35.

    Basically, Allah has the power to make the heavens and the earth, and therefore he is God and he can resurrect people at al-Qiyamah. These verses are simply used as a 'proof' in favour of this claim. All they do is assert that Allah is the creator, it's got jack to do with an expanding universe.

    Secondly, the next verse (48) states that Allah is 'al-Mahidoon,' the 'Spreaders' of the earth. But of course, Allah is not presently spreading out the earth. The two words in both verses are nouns, but the apologists would have us believe that one of them refers to an ongoing process, and of course the other one, necessarily, does not.

    Other verses talk about the creation of the heavens in the past tense too. See Q. 79:28:

    رَفَعَ سَمْكَهَا فَسَوَّاهَا

    'Rafa3a' is a masculine third person past tense verb, and it means 'raised.' So, it appears from this verse that the process of building or expanding the area of the heavens is finished, not ongoing, etc., etc.

    There may be more to be said, but either way, the idea that this is talking about an expanding universe is highly questionable.
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #3 - February 06, 2011, 10:04 PM

    Welcome NJ7 - Introduction post please Smiley

    And thanks for those links, that's the site I wanted to find but could not find the name of!

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #4 - February 06, 2011, 10:06 PM

    Is it possible to show that this is past tense?  Would it look different if it were an ongoing process?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #5 - February 06, 2011, 10:25 PM

    Quote
    Is it possible to show that this is past tense?


    Well, the words 'banaynaaha (بَنَيْنَٰهَا)' 'We built it' form a past tense construction, nevermind any other verse of the Qur'an that corroborates the fact. I recall even Hassan mentioned this in his video refuting the scientific miracles of the Qur'an.

    Quote
    Would it look different if it were an ongoing process?


    I guess it wouldn't use the past tense form of the verb. The words lamoosi'oona and maahidoona really just assert that Allah is the creator of these things; they have nothing to do with an ongoing process.

    I suppose if it were talking about an expanding universe you'd get something like like 'We are expanding it' but there's no pronoun or anything like that referring to the universe and its being expanded, for a reason which should be obvious; the verse is saying no such thing.
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #6 - February 06, 2011, 10:31 PM

    Hi, yeah it's really useful. You can download it all as a zip file from the website and it has a webpage for each letter of the Arabic alphabet. Each page has a list of words beginning with that letter and a list of verses that have that word and links to the relevent pages in Lane's lexicon.

    I'm an atheist ex-Christian. I have a muslim brother so I became interested in Islam and the Qur'an (though not remotely tempted to convert!).
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #7 - February 06, 2011, 11:05 PM

    I have a muslim brother so I became interested in Islam and the Qur'an (though not remotely tempted to convert!).


    Interesting. Is your brother a convert then?

    And I too have no desire to convert, although my family have shown disapproval/suspicion of my interest in Islam. Obviously, they thought I was thinking of jumping ship to the 'down with secularism, freedom and all-things-fun' crowd.  Roll Eyes
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #8 - February 06, 2011, 11:19 PM

    Yeah, he converted from Christianity (because of a muslim girl he met, initially). Our parents feel quite embarassed about it, though they seemed to get over it almost immediately when I explained how I wouldn't be going to church anymore!

    I'm not minded to try and disuade my bro from Islam. He seems quite happy with it, especially having all his new friends at the mosque. It's a bit sad that he wastes almost all his spare time praying to an imaginary being though. I'd also not want to risk falling out with him so we basically never discuss religion or anything controversial.
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #9 - February 06, 2011, 11:28 PM

    Quote
    I'm not minded to try and disuade my bro from Islam. He seems quite happy with it, especially having all his new friends at the mosque. It's a bit sad that he wastes almost all his spare time praying to an imaginary being though. I'd also not want to risk falling out with him so we basically never discuss religion or anything controversial.


    Seems wise. I too wouldn't protest if one of my family converted. I'd think their judgment was off a little, but I'd let them get on with it. I don't know why so many people seem to have such a stick up their ass about what other people believe.
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #10 - February 07, 2011, 03:52 PM

    What was going to be a 2 minute script seems to have grown.  Would you guys take a look and let me know what you think?  If you spot anything then please let me know ASAP (I am impatient and tend to record sooner rather than later) - especially if I have screwed something up in the Arabic...

    Quote
    The claim of the big bang in the Quran is based on the following verses

    http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_p1_02.php#5a
    21:30 - Do those who disbelieve not see that the heavens and the earth were sewn together and then We unstitched them and then made every living thing of water?

    51:47 - And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it.


    For these verses to be miracles they have to match the following criteria

    1: The information they contain must be accurate.
    2: It must be unambiguous. If there is an alternative meaning which is more simple than the claimed meaning, then the more simple alternative must be considered more likely.
    3: They must contain information which was impossible to know except via divine revelation.


    So let's look at 21:30 first.
    21:30 - Do those who disbelieve not see that the heavens and the earth were sewn together and then We unstitched them and then made every living thing of water?

    Test 1: Is the information accurate.
    No:

    Point 1: The Earth has not in any way been separated from the heavens.  If we stand on Earth and observe the heavens we see the Moon, if we stand on the Moon and observe the heavens we see the Earth. Everything is still part of the same thing, nothing has been pulled apart from the heavens or unstitched from it.

    Point 2: This verse states that the heavens and the Earth were once one and then separated from each other, meaning that both existed in a combined form and that an act of separating them resulted in both existing.

    This is incorrect. The expansion event which occurred initially resulted in one big soup of the same stuff, as this stuff expanded and cooled it became atoms.  Gravity pulled these atoms together so tightly that they formed suns which fused them together to make heavier elements.  At some point one of these suns would have exploded, releasing its heavy atoms into the universe, whereupon gravity acted once more to create a new sun and ultimately our planet.

    It is incorrect to state that this expansion resulted in the heavens and the Earth, the universe existed for approximately 9 billion years before the Earth was formed, and during this time countless stars formed, processed atoms, and then exploded. 


    Test 2: Is it free of more simple alternative meaning?
    No:
    In the Torah, Genesis 1, the Earth and the heavens are created when god moves across "the deep" and then separates two bodies of water. One water is named the heavens whereas the other is called the seas...in which the land then forms.

    This Quranic verse can just as easily refer to the incorrect creation story of the Torah.  The heavens and the Earth were once one (the deep) and were separated to form two distinct entities.

    It's interesting to note that the verse also goes on to say "and we made every living thing of water".



    3: Does it contain information which could only have been known by divine revelation?
    No:
    Anyone with even a passing interest in religion could have heard of the story of Gensis in the Torah.

    Conclusion: This verse is amiguous.  It is much more likely to represent a commonly held misconception of the time, and could easily have been said by anyone even vaguely familiar with the Jewish story of creation.



    Now let's look at 51:47
    51:47 - And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it.

    Test 1: Is the information accurate?
    Yes: The universe is expanding.

    Test 2: Is it free of more simple alternative meaning?
    No:
    It's only recently that people have started to translate the Arabic word lamoosi'auwna to mean an ongoing process of expansion.  Both Pickthal and Yusuf Ali for example translate this to mean that the heavens have been made a vast expanse

    Yusuf Ali: With the power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of Space
    Pickthal: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof)

    The respected Quranic commentator Ibn Kathir states that this verse means "We made it vast", note this is a past tense and does not mention an ongoing process.

    The Lane Lexicon describes this Arabic word to mean ample, abundant, wide, broad, spacious, roomy
    studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000306.pdf
    studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000307.pdf

    Arabic words are variations of a root word.  In this case the root of lamoosi'auwna is waw sin aiyn.  This same root is used in the following places in the Quran

    "Allah's knowledge encompases all things"
    6:80, 7:89, 20:98, 40:7
    Is Allah's knowledge vast enough to contain everything, or is Allah's knowledge expanding?

    "Allah is all embracing"
    2:115, 2:261, 2:268, 3:73, 5:54, 24:32, 4:130, 2:247
    Does Allah embrace all, or is something outside of Allah's brace and it embraces more with time?

    "Allah has vast mercy"
    53:32, 6:147
    Is Allah's mercy vast, or is Allah's mercy expanding?

    "Allah's Earth is spacious"
    4:97, 29:56, 39:10
    Did Allah make the Earth sufficiently spacious, or should it be expanded?

    "Let him who hath abundance spend of his abundance"
    65:7
    Should people spend if they have abundance, or only if their abundance is expanding?


    This verse has a much more simple meaning that Allah made the heavens really really big, or big enough.




    Test 3: Does it contain information which could only have been known by divine revelation?
    No:
    One could make the same observation simply by standing outside on a clear night and looking up.


    Conclusion: The use of the related words in the Quran indicate an encompassed vastness rather than things which are expanding in order to encompass more.


    Summary:
    This claim for the big bang in the Quran is without basis.  The expanding universe claim is a case of the claimant being creative whilst translating the meaning of the Arabic words to try to get them to match scientific observations.  The separation of the Earth from the heavens is a case of ignoring the far more probable mundane explanation so that a far more fantastic one can be presented in its place.


    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #11 - February 07, 2011, 04:28 PM

    @ RT

    1- i do not believe in scientific miracles of the quran.
    2- my comment regarding the first "miracle" is that it's too vague to be interpreted as anything we want.
    3- as for the last verse, here's a literal translation of the verse:

    And we built/constructed the sky/heaven/heavens with hands and we are expnading.

    an opponent of yours could easily argue that Ibn Kathir projected his own world view on this verse, and thus you cannot use his point of view.

    However, and despite the fact that I practically *despise* Ibn Kathir, his interpretation is exactly what I get from reading the verse after a training of reading the Quran. The Quran sometimes mixes the tenses in a seemingly confusing way. For example, sometimes the Quran uses the past tense to refer to the *future*, etc. Anyway, reading that verse, I understand it to have meant that God made the heavens and intended for them to be vast.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #12 - February 07, 2011, 04:41 PM

    1- i do not believe in scientific miracles of the quran.


    I know Smiley


    an opponent of yours could easily argue that Ibn Kathir projected his own world view on this verse, and thus you cannot use his point of view.


    I really only use Ibn Kathir to be thorough, to show that he doesn't claim the opposite to me.  I once made a video about the many verses in the Quran which match a geocentric universe model.  I completely ignored hadiths and tafsirs as these are humans' explanations (if god can't make it clear, what hope do humans have?) - The problem with that approach was that loads of people said "Read the Tafsirs, they explain why you are wrong!"

    So my approach now is
    1: Take the words in the Quran at face value
    2: Read the Tafsirs
    3: If they do not disagree then continue

    I don't use them as a position of authority.


    However, and despite the fact that I practically *despise* Ibn Kathir, his interpretation is exactly what I get from reading the verse after a training of reading the Quran.


    Excellent.  Do you think my use of the other verses in which other rooted words are used was relevant and accurate?

    The Quran sometimes mixes the tenses in a seemingly confusing way. For example, sometimes the Quran uses the past tense to refer to the *future*, etc.


    Not being confusing was a minimum requirement for a religious book for me.  If the book is confusing then humans will rely on other humans to interpret its meaning for them.  This would introduce the possibility for corrupting the meaning (either intentional or not) which is exactly what Muhammad was supposed to be remedying.

    You are an enigma to me Smiley  You seem to approach information in the same objective sceptical way that I do and yet I conclude the Quran is man made and you are a Muslim.  I am pleased we are talking though.  If I annoy you please rest assured it is not because I wanted to but just because I am probably naturally annoying Wink

    And thanks for your feedback!

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #13 - February 07, 2011, 04:54 PM

    @Rationalizer

    Quote
    51:47 - And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it.


    Lol, why you using that translation? Makes it seem like the meaning of the verse is a forgone conclusion.



  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #14 - February 07, 2011, 04:57 PM

    @Rationalizer
    Lol, why you using that translation? Makes it seem like the meaning of the verse is a forgone conclusion.


    Because that is the translation used in the claim.  I cannot disprove a claim that isn't being made, that would make no sense.  Maybe I should add some text pointing out that the translation is the one from the site.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #15 - February 07, 2011, 04:57 PM

    @debunker

    Quote
    And we built/constructed the sky/heaven/heavens with hands and we are expnading.


    Is the word 'lamoosi'oona' a noun or a verb? Mufti Taqi Usmani's translation renders it as 'the expanders,' so I wonder if it's one of those words that no-one's really sure about. What are those 'verbal noun' things you have in Arabic?
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #16 - February 07, 2011, 05:01 PM

    Because that is the translation used in the claim.  I cannot disprove a claim that isn't being made, that would make no sense.  Maybe I should add some text pointing out that the translation is the one from the site.


    Ah, I see.
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #17 - February 07, 2011, 05:20 PM

    @debunker

    Is the word 'lamoosi'oona' a noun or a verb? Mufti Taqi Usmani's translation renders it as 'the expanders,' so I wonder if it's one of those words that no-one's really sure about. What are those 'verbal noun' things you have in Arabic?


    wa inna la moosi'oona EXACTLY means the following in English:

    and we certainly are expanding.

    moosi'oon, outside that sentence, means expanders.

    But to answer your question, moosi'oon is always a noun (male plural), inside and outside that sentence, but inside that sentence it is EXACTLY equivalent to the english translation I shown you.

    it's how we use the continuous present in Arabic, to refer to the future. (like it is in English)

    For example, in english you say:

    I'm leaving tomorrow. (continuous present form used to refer to the future)

    Je pars, demain. <-- french: the verb does not change.

    inni rahel ghadan <-- Arabic: rahel is a noun (male single) but used here to give the same effect as in English above.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #18 - February 07, 2011, 05:24 PM

    I see. fascinating.
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #19 - February 07, 2011, 05:24 PM

    Quote
    Excellent.  Do you think my use of the other verses in which other rooted words are used was relevant and accurate?


    no. i advise you to not go there.

    By the way, if your opponents insist on the literal translation, then there's nothing to do about it.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #20 - February 07, 2011, 05:26 PM

    no. i advise you to not go there.


    It's the impression I got from your last post.  I shall have to rethink it somewhat.  Perhaps find some examples of using the "wrong" tense elsewhere. 

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #21 - February 07, 2011, 05:29 PM

    @ TR

    reading that verse, with an experience reading the Quran, makes me understand it as God intended for the heavens, when he created them, that they shall be vast. Nothing more really.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #22 - February 07, 2011, 05:31 PM

    reading that verse, with an experience reading the Quran, makes me understand it as God intended for the heavens, when he created them, that they shall be vast. Nothing more really.


    Problem is that I have to present the evidence as to why it should be understood that way, without it I would be asking people to accept it on authority. 

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #23 - February 07, 2011, 05:36 PM

    ok, i'll look for something similar, although this going to be tricky (i usually make quick searches by remembering keywords, but i never tried to look for things from a grammatical point of view).

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #24 - February 07, 2011, 05:37 PM

    Would 54:1 be an example of this?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #25 - February 07, 2011, 05:44 PM

    Interesting thread - I learned quite a few things.

    And I too have no desire to convert, although my family have shown disapproval/suspicion of my interest in Islam. Obviously, they thought I was thinking of jumping ship to the 'down with secularism, freedom and all-things-fun' crowd.  Roll Eyes

    lol

    What happened?
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #26 - February 07, 2011, 06:12 PM

    @ TR

    not sure what you mean.

    Anyway, as an example of mixing of tenses, the Quran usually uses the past tense in conversations held in the future or when it mentions future events, which is to affirm the *certitude* of the future --as if the future has already come to pass.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #27 - February 07, 2011, 06:56 PM

    I gave 54 as an example of what should be a future event which is being spoken of in a past tense.  "The end of the world drew near".

    I think though what I really need is an example of where the Quran talks about a past event in a present tense.  Do you think it does that anywhere?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #28 - February 07, 2011, 08:17 PM

    What was going to be a 2 minute script seems to have grown.  Would you guys take a look and let me know what you think?  If you spot anything then please let me know ASAP (I am impatient and tend to record sooner rather than later) - especially if I have screwed something up in the Arabic...



    Looks fine - two suggestions:

    1. Make it specific that you are answering Harun Yahya's claim and you are using his translation. This way no-one can accuse you of creating a strawman or making up your own translation to suit your needs.

    2. Refer to other creation myths (I mention a couple in my vid) that suggest the earth and the heaven were one and then split apart.
  • Re: The expanding universe
     Reply #29 - February 07, 2011, 08:20 PM

    Refer to other creation myths (I mention a couple in my vid) that suggest the earth and the heaven were one and then split apart.


    I mention that when I refer to Genesis.  It's the myth he's most likely to have heard of.

    I intend to drop the approach where I list the other verses though.  I think I need instead to argue that it says Allah has "expanded" the universe, but to do this I need to show that the Quran mixes up tenses.  Do you know anywhere that a present tense is used for something Allah has already finished doing?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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