The expanding universe

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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #120 - February 09, 2011, 12:10 PM

Quote from: IsLame on February 09, 2011, 11:20 AM
but a panentheistic God is the universe (so it cant be its creator unless you assume it created itself) - I think they would be more likely to say its always been around

If I am not mistaken then pantheistic equals the universe, panentheistic is more than the universe.

But anyway... Saying "The cause of the known universe" is talking only of the cause of the event. It doesn't presume to know any details such as whether or not the cause is eternal, whether or not it is conscious, or whether or not it doesn't like us eating pigs.

I just think that if we mean "Whatever caused the universe which we know nothing at all about" then we should not use the word "god" because it is too easily misunderstood.

When I read Hawking's book as a deist I was very reassured to read at the end the statement about knowing the mind of god. I didn't know what he meant by "God", in fact I didn't know there was any other possible meaning for the word. "God means god, everyone knows that" I thought to myself as I closed the book to go and wallow in my pit of ignorance with the reassurance that some really clever bloke believes the same thing I do.

That's why I don't use the word "god" except to mean a conscious entity which created the universe as a matter of choice.

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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #121 - February 14, 2011, 09:01 AM

Naik seems to agree that the Quran was sent for humans and Jinn.

(3 min 15)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bVg3xcM8i4

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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #122 - February 14, 2011, 10:06 AM

I don't know who he concluded the Quran was sent for people (atleast in any large number)
I don't find any indication that was the case in reference to the way the Quran was 'revealed', nor do I find anything from Muhammed indicating that the Quran was even to be written down.

From what I can see, the Quran was written down solely because the few people who memorized parts of it were getting killed in wars.

If the Quran was made for humans, it was made for the local region whilst Muhammad was alive and nothing more....and the jinns,ofcourse
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #123 - February 14, 2011, 11:32 AM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 14, 2011, 09:01 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bVg3xcM8i4

@2:54

According to Ahadith e Mubarika Narrated Sad: Allah's Apostle said, "He who eats seven Ajwa dates every morning, will not be affected by poison or magic on the day he eats them."
(Sahih Bukhari Book65, Hadith 356)

The Prophet said, "If somebody takes seven 'Ajwa dates every morning, he will not be effected by poison or magic on that day till night." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 71, Number 663)

Does anybody know of a Muslim who would be willing to test this hadith IRL?
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #124 - February 14, 2011, 11:33 AM

I guessed that the idea Mo was a messenger for all people came from the hadith where Mo claims there will be no more messengers after him, and surely an all loving god wouldn't leave everyone else out so he must have been for everyone. Plus, Islam will dominate the world, Allah (satta watta Allah) promises it in the Quran - and I think many people think "Islam = Muslims = Muhammad" and conclude again that therefore the teachings of Mo will dominate the world.

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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #125 - February 14, 2011, 11:34 AM

Quote from: Kenan on February 14, 2011, 11:32 AM
The Prophet said, "If somebody takes seven 'Ajwa dates every morning, he will not be effected by poison or magic on that day till night." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 71, Number 663)[/i]

Does anybody know of a Muslim who would be willing to test this hadith IRL?

Well, Zakir Naik pulls the same trick on Christians by offering them a drink of poison. Maybe someone should use his own trick against him

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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #126 - February 14, 2011, 01:55 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 14, 2011, 09:01 AM
Naik seems to agree that the Quran was sent for humans and Jinn.

(3 min 15)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bVg3xcM8i4

Thats just awesome. The music made my day. Specially good to rub in the faces of muslims.

Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
Islam's Last Stand (page)
Islam's Last Stand (group)
and many others...
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #127 - February 14, 2011, 04:04 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 14, 2011, 09:01 AM
Naik seems to agree that the Quran was sent for humans and Jinn.

(3 min 15)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bVg3xcM8i4

That is Good Tube and good Link TheRationalizer., So who is "captaindisguise"

great stuff in it at http://www.youtube.com/user/captaindisguise Anyways ., On that Black Magic and Islamic Scriptures/Books this link is good to couple..

http://www.blackmagicremoveswithquran.com/

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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #128 - February 14, 2011, 04:07 PM

He's one of my subscribers who sometimes chats with me

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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #129 - February 14, 2011, 06:40 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 14, 2011, 11:33 AM
I guessed that the idea Mo was a messenger for all people came from the hadith where Mo claims there will be no more messengers after him, and surely an all loving god wouldn't leave everyone else out so he must have been for everyone. Plus, Islam will dominate the world, Allah (satta watta Allah) promises it in the Quran - and I think many people think "Islam = Muslims = Muhammad" and conclude again that therefore the teachings of Mo will dominate the world.

I've heard it before, but I remain unconvinced.
For example, if Mo was to be the last prophet, there are limited reasons as to why:
1) The bible contains the book of revelations (the conclusion)
2) The Quran would contain a repeat of Genesis and Exodus stories
(Or ofcourse why 'allah' would take stories taken from pagan religions and pass it off as his own)

I think the idea of him being the last prophet with the last book (aswell as 'islam will dominate the world') is most likely a marketing scheme, possibly constructed by his wife.
It's commonplace to jump on the back of popular religions, just as much as its easy to convince people to follow something, when you can make a long and whimsical prophecy as to how things will end up (both for an afterlife and with the religion).
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #130 - February 14, 2011, 06:53 PM

Quote from TheRationalizer on Today at 05:33 AM
Quote
I guessed that the idea Mo was a messenger for all people came from the hadith where Mo claims there will be no more messengers after him, and surely an all loving god wouldn't leave everyone else out so he must have been for everyone.

Well a part of that come out of Quran

Quote
033.040: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.

So some Muslim consider those highlighted words as Last Prophet and last messenger adding some hadith spice in it. ., Where as these Ahamadi Muslim guys there More messages and messengers will come after PBUH..

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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #131 - February 14, 2011, 07:51 PM

It says "seal" not "last". A seal is something which closes something up but not permanently, it is merely a way of closing up everything which came before it. Without Hadiths I wouldn't read this to mean he is the last.

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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #132 - February 14, 2011, 08:12 PM

Seal or not, I think the central point is still being made, that Muhammad is jumping on the back of popular religions with long libraries of books and saying 'now THIS book is the conclusion to the other religions'.

In regards to future potentials to take Muhammad's place, it can really go either way, most dependent on whether the person in particular will take note of the Hadiths or how he/she interprets it.

(or in the most likely case, who interprets it for him/her)
Besides, Islam has a history of labeling everyone and everything 'Muslims' and 'Prophets of Islam', they'll probably be saying the same about scientology next.
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #133 - February 14, 2011, 08:15 PM

@Rationalizer

Quote
I guessed that the idea Mo was a messenger for all people came from the hadith where Mo claims there will be no more messengers after him

Well, it's stated in the Qur'an itself, as well as the hadith.

Q. 7:158

قُلْ يٰأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ إِنِّي رَسُولُ ٱللَّهِ إِلَيْكُمْ جَمِيعاً

Say: O people! Truly I am a messenger of Allah to you all...
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #134 - February 14, 2011, 08:19 PM

But is there emphasis on 'all' as in 'everyone globally'
or
The people willing to read it, subject to that time period and region?
Because it can quite easily mean both (people say 'all' in response to large crowds of people all the time, without meaning everyone beyond the group are also included)

The 'revelation' of the Quran would suggest the latter.
(well if we're being honest, it points to a desert dweller making things up, but anyway..)
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #135 - February 14, 2011, 08:25 PM

To push my point further.

When we read the Quran, we find frequent detailings of Honey,Dates and if we include the hadiths of Muhammads sayings...camel urine.

These aren't globally existing products, you won't find them in any northern countries and rarely in the most southern.
Hypothetically assuming the Quran was actually being 'revealed' to Muhammad, it points further that it isn't a book for the world, because in almost every time period up until the last few centuries, the above products would have been unknown to every man and his non-camel-looking-dog, rendering the Quran (even more) useless.
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #136 - February 14, 2011, 08:34 PM

Well, the verse is saying that Muhammad is a messenger of God to 'all people,' so that seems fairly self-explanatory to me. But if you look at other verses in the Qur'an, it seems to become clear it is a revelation for all nations, and not just Muhammad's.

Even in the same verse:

قُلْ يٰأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ إِنِّي رَسُولُ ٱللَّهِ إِلَيْكُمْ جَمِيعاً ٱلَّذِي لَهُ مُلْكُ ٱلسَّمَٰوَٰتِ وَٱلأَرْضِ لاۤ إِلَـٰهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ

Say: O People! Truly I am a messenger of Allah to you all, whose is the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, there is no God but He...

Seems to me that if he's speaking for the God of the universe then his message is therefore supposed to apply to all people therein.

Also, Q. 9:33

It is He who has sent His Messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may uplift it above every religion, though the unbelievers be averse.

Seems like it's supposed to replace other religions that people have, so again; it's for all people everywhere.

Although, there is a verse or two that maybe leads one to think the opposite.

Q. 42:7

And so We have revealed to thee an Arabic Koran, that thou mayest warn the Mother of Cities and those who dwell about it, and that thou mayest warn of the Day of Gathering, wherein is no doubt
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #137 - February 14, 2011, 08:38 PM

Quote from: mighty_cats on February 14, 2011, 08:25 PM
These aren't globally existing products, you won't find them in any northern countries and rarely in the most southern.
Hypothetically assuming the Quran was actually being 'revealed' to Muhammad, it points further that it isn't a book for the world, because in almost every time period up until the last few centuries, the above products would have been unknown to every man and his non-camel-looking-dog, rendering the Quran (even more) useless.

I read in Ma'ariful Qur'an that Muslims who live in far northern places which have several months of darkness a year only have to pray about 5 times in as many months. It seems that Allah at least wasn't thinking about the Eskimos.
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #138 - February 14, 2011, 08:42 PM

Thats the issue, it can't be both ways.

You can't have something for the world
AND
have absolutely everything about it confined to a localized region, incomparable to pretty much everyone else.

Perhaps theres a middle ground here, where he said all this whimsical worldly crap, but never expected it to go as far as it did.
Lets not forget, the religion didn't even really take off beyond the local regions until long after mo's death.
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #139 - February 14, 2011, 08:58 PM

Well, 7:158 seems to carry a definitive statement, and 42:7 just shows that Muhammad was sent as a messenger to Arabia, but that doesn't preclude the notion of him also being sent for all people.

And of course, the hadith corroborate the orthodox understanding:

Volume 1, Book 8, Number 429:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle said, "I have been given five things which were not given to any amongst the Prophets before me. These are:

1. Allah made me victorious by awe (by His frightening my enemies) for a distance of one month's journey.

2. The earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying and a thing to perform Tayammum. Therefore my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due.

3. The booty has been made Halal (lawful) for me (and was not made so for anyone else).

4. Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation exclusively but I have been sent to all mankind.

5. I have been given the right of intercession (on the Day of Resurrection.)
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #140 - February 14, 2011, 09:35 PM

@ TR and Zebedee

25:1
Blessed is He Who sent down the Furqan upon His servant that he may be a warner to the nations;

34:28
And We have not sent you but to all the men as a bearer of good news and as a warner, but most men do not know.

(btw, both verses are Meccan, I believe).

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10524.msg286324#msg286324

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #141 - February 14, 2011, 10:21 PM

Quote
25:1: Blessed is He Who sent down the Furqan upon His servant that he may be a warner to the nations;

34:28: And We have not sent you but to all the men as a bearer of good news and as a warner, but most men do not know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pveGeGjyMZM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1JvXHtBrik

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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #142 - February 15, 2011, 07:43 AM

I still see nothing to say he was the last. Just because the religion is complete doesn't mean you don't need more messengers to spread it. Assumingly the religion was complete at the beginning of time.

Remember, we have only had world wide communication for a few hundred years in order for this message to spread.

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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #143 - February 16, 2011, 02:23 PM

Hm. I believe that I may have found something pertinent to the original topic.

Take Q. 88:18-20

وَإِلَى ٱلسَّمَآءِ كَيْفَ رُفِعَتْ

And to the heaven how it is raised

وَإِلَىٰ ٱلْجِبَالِ كَيْفَ نُصِبَتْ

And to the mountains how they are set

وَإِلَى ٱلأَرْضِ كَيْفَ سُطِحَتْ

And to the earth how it is spread

The verb used in each of these verses is in the passive voice, but I'm pretty sure (and any Arabic speaker, feel free to correct me) that they are also present-tense, even though they describe things happening in the past.
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #144 - February 16, 2011, 02:33 PM

Heaven raising = "It is still expanding"
Mountains setting = "They are still being formed"
Earth is spreading = "Tectonic plate theory"

You see brother, these are the signs from Allah!

I really need something like "Adam is being created".

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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #145 - February 16, 2011, 02:41 PM

Quote
Heaven raising = "It is still expanding"
Mountains setting = "They are still being formed"
Earth is spreading = "Tectonic plate theory"

Damn, you're good. You should consider jumping ship to the dawaganda merchants.
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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #146 - February 16, 2011, 02:45 PM

What about 18:18 - the occupants of the cave
وَتَحۡسَبُہُمۡ أَيۡقَاظً۬ا وَهُمۡ رُقُودٌ۬‌ۚ وَنُقَلِّبُهُمۡ

Does this actually say
"You think they ARE awake, while they ARE asleep, and we ARE turning them?

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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #147 - February 16, 2011, 02:46 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on February 16, 2011, 02:41 PM
Damn, you're good. You should consider jumping ship to the dawaganda merchants.

It's embarrassing to admit, but this was the level to which I excused the Quran when I read it - yet it STILL was bollocks.

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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #148 - February 16, 2011, 02:49 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 16, 2011, 02:33 PM
Heaven raising = "It is still expanding"
Mountains setting = "They are still being formed"
Earth is spreading = "Tectonic plate theory"

You see brother, these are the signs from Allah!

I really need something like "Adam is being created".

yes.. brother yes..

shit coming out of ass
piss coming out of dick
spit coming out of mouth
drop from dick making baby

They are all signs of Allah., Even the dogs know that and we don't need books from religious bums to explain such mysteries of universe.

Stupid people silly books...

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Re: The expanding universe
Reply #149 - February 16, 2011, 02:54 PM

Oh no, these are true signs. People thought the universe was static. They thought the heavens were not expanding, the mountains were set firm, and the land was static too. Yet these verses reveal the universe is expanding, the mountains are continuously changing, and the land is moving. How could an illiterate man have known this 1,400 years ago?

(But why didn't anyone of the time object that this information was incorrect? To paraphrase Abduraheem Green's reply to such a query)

AG: That is because the Quran is written in such a way as to look accurate at the time, yet reveal the truth to people of the future
ME: So effectively, it's worded so vaguely that it looks correct no matter what reality reveals to be true?

Oh the good old days. I wonder why he stopped debating with me

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