I Want a New Way

12 3 ... 5 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
I Want a New Way
OP - February 08, 2011, 11:18 PM

I am not really happy inside about the way we are going about things. I mean the right way to reach out to Muslims. Of course I will always support CEMB - but - you know what - this is not me - I mean marching and waving banners and slapping Muslims about is just not me.

I talked about empathy with Muslims, but I don't think anyone was on the same wavelength or understood what was trying to say.

Not much point in explaining really if you don't get it.

I can feel that this is not the way I want to go - and I have always been lead by my feelings & instinct, as well as my rational mind.

I guess many won't understand - but I think what I'm trying to say is that I need to move on - find the way that suits me best.
- Ishina
- Militant Atheist
- Ex-Muslim
- No Fate But What We Make
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #1 - February 08, 2011, 11:31 PM

I see only valid criticism of Islam, from its victims, with only very few exceptions.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
- Kenan
- Cultist
- Pub Regular
- Hwee cap-toored eet fohr kay-ohss !!!
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #2 - February 08, 2011, 11:34 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 08, 2011, 11:18 PM
Not much point in explaining really if you don't get it.

Don't you think that its precisely when people "don't get it" that an explanation is most needed?
- allat
- Euphoria
- Administrator
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #3 - February 08, 2011, 11:35 PM

I think there are people who are on the same wavelength. But every person's individual personality and experience is different and there are also stages of grief, anger, depression, resentment, etc. that humans go through when they leave an ideology behind they were taught was absolute truth. I think some people carry that sense of/need for absolutism into their lives as ex-muslims or ex-christians. I know I've gone through many of these things myself and am thinking along the same lines myself. I am not going to be a Muslim ever again, but I didn't stop believing in Islam just to fall into a different sort of tribalistic, binary, us vs. them type of thinking.

"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #4 - February 08, 2011, 11:40 PM

Quote
I guess many won't understand - but I think what I'm trying to say is that I need to move on - find the way that suits me best.

please explain yourself!!!

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #5 - February 08, 2011, 11:43 PM

Quote from: allat on February 08, 2011, 11:35 PM
I didn't stop believing in Islam just to fall into a different sort of tribalistic, binary, us vs. them type of thinking.

Sadaqa Allat al-'Azeem!
- billy
- Pub Regular
- Tripitaka ~ Closet Juice
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #6 - February 08, 2011, 11:48 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 08, 2011, 11:18 PM
Of course I will always support CEMB - but - you know what - this is not me - I mean marching and waving banners and slapping Muslims about is just not me.

That sounds like the EDL way of doing things.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #7 - February 08, 2011, 11:50 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 08, 2011, 11:40 PM
please explain yourself!!!

When I find the words I will try.
- Kenan
- Cultist
- Pub Regular
- Hwee cap-toored eet fohr kay-ohss !!!
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #8 - February 08, 2011, 11:52 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 08, 2011, 11:18 PM
I mean the right way to reach out to Muslims.

What do you think is the optimal way of doing that?
- Rubaiyat
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #9 - February 08, 2011, 11:56 PM

Hi chaps and chapeses,

just passing...

Hassan....good on you....path to enlightenment is compassion....

I was here...I had the feeling something was not quite right here....

glad you sussd it out.....

Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
- billy
- Pub Regular
- Tripitaka ~ Closet Juice
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #10 - February 09, 2011, 12:10 AM

Quote
I was here...I had the feeling something was not quite right here....

glad you sussd it out.....

I don't think I've sussed it out yet, could you let me know what it is that is not quite right here?

Sounds sinister

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #11 - February 09, 2011, 12:14 AM

I guess Hassan just wants you to be way too patient with Muslims, even with the self-righteous ones (which are the majority), which, honestly, i think is too much to ask.

hassan is a softie and he expects others to be softies like him

but i have to admit that some of the young members here are a bit arrogant.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- Ishina
- Militant Atheist
- Ex-Muslim
- No Fate But What We Make
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #12 - February 09, 2011, 12:17 AM

Quote from: billy on February 09, 2011, 12:10 AM
I don't think I've sussed it out yet, could you let me know what it is that is not quite right here?

Yeah, I wonder what it is too.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #13 - February 09, 2011, 12:22 AM

Quote from: debunker on February 09, 2011, 12:14 AM
I guess Hassan just wants you to be way too patient with Muslims, even with the self-righteous ones (which are the majority), which, honestly, i think is too much to ask.

hassan is a softie and he expects others to be softies like him

but i have to admit that some of the young members here are a bit arrogant.

I guess what triggered this - even though it has been in my mind for a long time - was that I visited a friend of mine whose wife had a stroke. I haven't seen them for 20 years but we had been close friends back in my Da'wa Society days.

I cannot even begin to describe to you what a lovely guy this chap is. He would do anything for you. His wife is the most sweet, kind and gentle person you could ever meet. They are devout Muslims and had heard that I had left Islam. We talked and they saw that I was me - Hassan - the guy they had always known and I saw they were the same wonderful ppl I had always known.

I can't really express it - but I knew and have always known - that change and progress amongst Muslims is something that can only be done with great wisdom and genuine compassion and love.

I really can't explain it more than that.
- Hananii
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #14 - February 09, 2011, 12:29 AM

I'm kinda on the same wave length.
Ive never found the need to just always criticize how Muslims did things.
I think that empathy is the best way to see it.
There are some amazingly great Muslims out there who follow Islam in the path they believe to be right.
There are those who are genuine and just good people.
Not all Muslims are bad.
Just because most of us are ex-Muslims, it doesnt mean we know everything.
For me, I'm agnostic, so in definition, that means I DONT really know,
so why criticize those who feel that they do know.
Idk, wen ii read this, this is what ii was thinking about.
I want others to respect that im agnostic, and Muslims want to be respected for being Muslim.
Just cuz we chose this way, it doesnt mean its the only way and that we are free to think we are better.
- Kenan
- Cultist
- Pub Regular
- Hwee cap-toored eet fohr kay-ohss !!!
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #15 - February 09, 2011, 12:35 AM

Quote from: Hassan on February 09, 2011, 12:22 AM
I cannot even begin to describe to you what a lovely guy this chap is. He would do anything for you. His wife is the most sweet, kind and gentle person you could ever meet. They are devout Muslims and had heard that I had left Islam. We talked and they saw that I was me - Hassan - the guy they had always known and I saw they were the same wonderful ppl I had always known.

That's the difference between seeing somebody as an abstract 'Muslim' (or 'Kafir' when it comes to how mainstream Islam sees you) and seeing the same person as a fellow human being.
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #16 - February 09, 2011, 12:35 AM

Quote
so why criticize those who feel that they do know.

because you think what they think they know is definitely wrong.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- Ishina
- Militant Atheist
- Ex-Muslim
- No Fate But What We Make
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #17 - February 09, 2011, 12:38 AM

Quote from: Hananii on February 09, 2011, 12:29 AM
I'm kinda on the same wave length.
Ive never found the need to just always criticize how Muslims did things.
I think that empathy is the best way to see it.
There are some amazingly great Muslims out there who follow Islam in the path they believe to be right.
There are those who are genuine and just good people.
Not all Muslims are bad.
Just because most of us are ex-Muslims, it doesnt mean we know everything.
For me, I'm agnostic, so in definition, that means I DONT really know,
so why criticize those who feel that they do know.
Idk, wen ii read this, this is what ii was thinking about.
I want others to respect that im agnostic, and Muslims want to be respected for being Muslim.
Just cuz we chose this way, it doesnt mean its the only way and that we are free to think we are better.

If religion was just a person to person deeply held personal belief about life or the world, or hopes and dreams for their spiritual self, or personal preference or taste, and was unobtrusive and harmless to everyone else, it wouldn't be worthy of so much open criticism. But it's not just that is it? It's a collective, often hysterical and irrational mass belief and school of thought that has so much stranglehold on the world that it affects millions of lives every day whether they agree with it or not, whether they want it to or not. It affects things from who gets to govern the most powerful secular (apparently) nation on earth, to if homosexuals deserve to live or die on the other side of the planet.

When the religions of the world offer themselves up as a complete system of life - law, policy, social, economical, educational, philosophical, even military, and with pretty much the sole aim of converting and controlling the masses - we can criticise them as thoroughly, shamelessly and ruthlessly as we can any constitution or political ideology, or any collection of ideas and principles. As soon as we can’t, we can no longer consider ourselves a democracy.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
- Kenan
- Cultist
- Pub Regular
- Hwee cap-toored eet fohr kay-ohss !!!
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #18 - February 09, 2011, 12:41 AM

Quote from: debunker on February 09, 2011, 12:35 AM
because you think what they think they know is definitely wrong.

But its not just abstract thought is it? It has very real repercussions for LGBT community, apostates and just about everybody else who is not a part of the group. Not to mention the fact that it has very real repercussions for those who are a part of the club too.
- Crunchy Cds
- Pub Regular
- The artist
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #19 - February 09, 2011, 12:46 AM

I think we can all agree the main thing we're upset about, are all the negative things some Muslims do as a result of trying to follow the Koran, or having a condescending attitude towards others who are non-Muslim or apostates. I mean just approach your feelings towards this how you feel is best. Some of us talk about these issues differently be it, angrily, mockingly whatever because we have different experiences. I think that it's great that this couple was still very accepting towards you, and we only wish more Muslims around the world be more gentle and forgiving like them, but the reality is that the majority are not and devout Muslims like your friends are probably hard to come by.

If more devout Muslims were like them, then there wouldn't be this whole Anti-Islam hype right now. Most of world right now is concentrating on Islam and the Middle East, not Jews or Christians or Hindus everyone is talking about Islam after 9/11, the London bombings, the Taliban in Afghanistan etc. everyone knows about it. However, some of us, infact even the majority of the world is frustrated because some people have approached Muslim change and progress with love and compassion, but instead are met with with terrible consequences. It's really hard to show compassion to someone who turns around and stabs you in the back, both emotionally and physically. But hey if you have the strength and courage to continue showing that compassion and love all the more power to you.

***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
- Maya
- Non-Believer
- Global Moderator
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #20 - February 09, 2011, 12:48 AM

Quote from: Hassan on February 09, 2011, 12:22 AM
I guess what triggered this - even though it has been in my mind for a long time - was that I visited a friend of mine whose wife had a stroke. I haven't seen them for 20 years but we had been close friends back in my Da'wa Society days.

I cannot even begin to describe to you what a lovely guy this chap is. He would do anything for you. His wife is the most sweet, kind and gentle person you could ever meet. They are devout Muslims and had heard that I had left Islam. We talked and they saw that I was me - Hassan - the guy they had always known and I saw they were the same wonderful ppl I had always known.

I can't really express it - but I knew and have always known - that change and progress amongst Muslims is something that can only be done with great wisdom and genuine compassion and love.

I really can't explain it more than that.

I think people like you describe will always receive empathy, understanding and love, how could they not? But the other type, the arrogant self-righteous type don't deserve it imo. It isn't an automatic feeling.

"The greatest general is not the one who can take the most cities or spill the most blood. The greatest general is the one who can take Heaven and Earth without waging the battle." ~ Sun Tzu
- Lilyesque
- The Deconverter
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #21 - February 09, 2011, 12:53 AM

Hassan, I never try to tar Muslims with the same brush, I kind of don't view most Muslims as Muslim to be quite honest, many I have met are kind and warm-hearted with the best of intentions, others not so much (such is peoples). I am patient and calm dealing with most, but if they get my goat as with all people they feel the razors of my tongue. I think I have got someone in PK thinking about freedom of speech and also judging people on merit not religion.
- Ishina
- Militant Atheist
- Ex-Muslim
- No Fate But What We Make
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #22 - February 09, 2011, 01:11 AM

Nobody here wakes up in the morning and thinks "How can I hate on Muslims today?"

With exceptions I can count on one hand and with fingers to spare, most of what goes on at this forum is genuine venting, symptomatic of things that are directly affecting or have affected our real life. We are human. It is our empathy and understanding of the world that compels us to seek out likeminds, who in turn empathise with and understand us. We wish only to make sense of this world, to express our findings, to share ourselves passionately, to be considered and appreciated... and also put ourselves at risk of misunderstanding, criticism and rejection. This is the game we play, willingly.

If it gets heated, it is because this is a forum that has its main focus on both world politics and religion - two hot button topics, the hottest button topics. And it is nearly always the case that words are reactionary. Islam is a very real and very present reality for nearly all of us here, and nearly all of us have our reasons for rejecting it and standing against it, vocally at least, both long-standing reasons that are part of our whole persona, and day-to-day reasons as and when they are presented to us. You should focus your main energy on the cause, not the effect, not the reaction. Empathy should lay with the reaction, if anywhere.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
- billy
- Pub Regular
- Tripitaka ~ Closet Juice
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #23 - February 09, 2011, 01:17 AM

Quote from: Rubaiyat on February 08, 2011, 11:56 PM
I was here...I had the feeling something was not quite right here....

glad you sussd it out.....

Any chance of telling us what you've sussed out?

Its OK if you don't want to tell us, just curious. Otherwise, some might say its a little bit of snide.

If you want to keep it secret though, thats cool.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
- Unechance
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #24 - February 09, 2011, 02:03 AM

I'm curious what you mean by going around waving placards and slapping Muslims?

For what it is worth, I have spent time on so many different forums discussing politics and belief systems and such and I think this forum is perhaps my favourite it in that most people have a much more rational approach to dealing with things. I rarely come across a group of people such as those here. I originally joined here just to say hi and browse, but a year later I'm still posting and learning lots so it is wonderful.

I certainly don't see what you mean by "slapping Muslims"? ??
- muddy
- The Drama King
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #25 - February 09, 2011, 04:41 AM

Quote from: Hassan on February 08, 2011, 11:43 PM
Sadaqa Allat al-'Azeem!

Ashhadu Un la illaha Illallaat Wan ashhadu unna mohammadan pedophilahu'

Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
Islam's Last Stand (page)
Islam's Last Stand (group)
and many others...
- Alex Lam Meem
- Restricted
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #26 - February 09, 2011, 05:11 AM

Quote from: Hassan on February 08, 2011, 11:18 PM
I mean the right way to reach out to Muslims.

Ishinka, Kenan, why do you discuss this as if the first goal and reason for existence of CEMB forum is "reaching out to Muslims". I always thought that it is a forum for Ex-Muslims first. How the fuck (notice I never ever swear normally) are we supposed to relax here and say whatever we think or feel if we need to worry about reaching out to Muslims?

If nice, lovely Muslims come here, I've noticed they are always welcome. Should we just shock them with politeness and leave them confused how is it that these shayateen (us) are so nice and restrained and simply exemplary citizens? Would that be a forum FOR EX-MUSLIMS? WTF???

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
- Alex Lam Meem
- Restricted
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #27 - February 09, 2011, 05:20 AM

Quote from: allat on February 08, 2011, 11:35 PM
I think there are people who are on the same wavelength. But every person's individual personality and experience is different and there are also stages of grief, anger, depression, resentment, etc. that humans go through when they leave an ideology behind they were taught was absolute truth. I think some people carry that sense of/need for absolutism into their lives as ex-muslims or ex-christians. I know I've gone through many of these things myself and am thinking along the same lines myself. I am not going to be a Muslim ever again, but I didn't stop believing in Islam just to fall into a different sort of tribalistic, binary, us vs. them type of thinking.

allat, I just found out you're an Ex-Muslim. I suppose the forum policy prevents you from wearing the badge of honor, or posting your intro. Can you send your intro to me privately - I will keep it a secret

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
- Homer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #28 - February 09, 2011, 08:31 AM

To be honest, I never thought of this little board as anything other than a place to vent occasionally.
Not really so much an outreach thing.
More a kind of self help group, like AA, but for people who are really annoyed by superstition

but I admit, the place has become a bit less interesting than it was back a year + ago.

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
- Ishina
- Militant Atheist
- Ex-Muslim
- No Fate But What We Make
- offline
Re: I Want a New Way
Reply #29 - February 09, 2011, 08:39 AM

Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on February 09, 2011, 05:11 AM
Ishinka, Kenan, why do you discuss this as if the first goal and reason for existence of CEMB forum is "reaching out to Muslims".

?

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
12 3 ... 5 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »