sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf

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- nj7
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sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
OP - February 09, 2011, 04:39 PM

One of the first things I learned about the Quran when I became interested in Islam is the controversy over sunset and sunrise in the Dhu'l Qarnayn story (18:83-101). In fact, I was so intrigued that I read a lot of stuff online that people had written about it and did more research myself. I realised that there was a lot more to be said about it and the various explanations, especially if you look at the Arabic rather than English translations.

For a couple of years I kept it all to myself since I felt uncomfortable about publishing stuff that could cause people to doubt their faith, but later I decided to write it up and put it online to just share the info with people who might be interested. I don't intend to "push" it out to people who are happy with their faith (I'm not going to post it on muslim (not ex-muslim) forums etc.). The about page of my new wordpress website explains who I've written this stuff for.

I hope people here might find it interesting and maybe even have some helpful feedback. It looks at the various interpretations of the controversial phrases in 18:86 and 18:90, such as that Dhu'l Qarnayn went to the east or west, or travelled until the time of sunset and sunrise, or that the story might simply be metaphorical.

I can't post full urls, but if you go to quranspotlight.wordpress.com (no www) and go to the articles page you'll see it there. There's a bullet point summary version of the main article, "only" 13 pages of text vs 39 (plus endnotes and refs) in the full article. If you prefer pdf to html, there are also pdf versions of both the summary and full version (but backlinks from endnotes don't seem to work in pdf).

Hopefully you guys will be interested in checking out the summary at least. I realised the full version was on the long side for a casual visitor (!), but necessarily so if I am to cover all the interpretations that have been proposed. I decided to give transliterations, even for hadith, rather than Arabic script so it would be accessible to more readers. You can find links to the Arabic in online sources in the references section in those cases.

I'll be very grateful for any comments, thanks!

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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #1 - February 09, 2011, 04:42 PM

http://quranspotlight.wordpress.com/articles/dhul-qarnayn-sunset-sunrise/

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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #2 - February 09, 2011, 05:19 PM

Interesting work nj7.

The way I see it, is a nomadic desert human, who after travelling far and vast in the Arabian desert; saw utmost beauty in the sun rising and setting. His view on the beauty led him to write very vaguely about the sun's role in earth...

In fact, Surah Al-Kahf is a very beautiful surah, with beautiful poetry and viewpoints of the nomadic lifestyle...
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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #3 - February 09, 2011, 05:34 PM

Thanks abzm94, and thanks TR for posting the link (if anyone wants to see the summary, just add -summary before the last forward-slash). I agree, it is a beautiful, evokative story. I imagine it must have been riveting to hear about far off lands and adventures when we knew so little about the world. A certain amount of mystery has been lost as we've come to more knowledge through exploration and science, but on the other hand as we learn about the universe there are always new questions and mysteries.

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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #4 - March 04, 2011, 11:43 PM

Here's debunker's take on this: (via pm)

Quote from: debunker on March 04, 2011, 04:10 PM
Hello ateapotist,

Actually, I did come across nj7’s article before and I chose not to comment because his analysis is based on a very weak argument. if I understood the article correctly, his argument is that the *uncommoness* of the language used to tell the story of ThulQarnayn *necessarily* implies that the references to the sun in that story can only be understood within a flat earth model.

His argument is easily refutable because, in (Arabic) poems, uncommon (or never previously used) expressions and references are the norm. In (Arabic) poetry, a poet usually doesn’t describe a scene using common (dull) language especially when the scene is of a special importance to the story being told by the poem. In other words, even if the author of the Quran was only a 7-th century poet ignorant of basic cosmology, the epic (and thus unusual) language used to tell the story of ThulQarnayn does not necessarily imply the author was referring to *the actual places* the sun literally rises from and sets in. There are aesthetic reasons for the use of the uncommon expressions Matla’e elshams and Maghreb elshams (instead of Mashreq and Maghreb), which I won’t go into here, but this is common all over the Quran (especially in the Meccan Suras where uncommon words and expressions replace common ones purely for aesthetic reasons).

Specifically, when I read that ThuQarnayn kept traveling until he reached the rising place of the sun (Matla’e elshams), and at which point, he found that it rises over a people who had no cover from it, all what I read is that ThulQarnayn was heading east, in his travels, until he reached an open space in the east, where people were too simple as to live without any cover from the elements. The verses are giving the location as well as the time ThuQarnayn reached that place (at sunrise). Nj7 argues, however, that had the Quran used the commonly used Arabic word *Mashreq* instead of *Matla’e elshams*, then my understanding of the verses is one plausible interpretation, but since an *uncommon* expression was used for the first time in the Quran (Matla’e elshams) then one must rule out it was an idiom for the east, which is, of course, quite a weak argument as I explained above.

Likewise, when the Quran says that ThulQarnayn traveled until he reached the setting place of the sun (Maghreb elshams), and at which point he found it setting in a hot spring, I understand that he traveled so far west until he reached a hot spring, and he reached that place at sunset. But again, Nj7 objects to the uncommon use of the expression (Maghreb elshams) arguing that it necessarily implies that the author was referring to the *actual place* the sun sets.

Refuting the so-called “scientific errors” of the Quran is something I really don’t care to do. It boils down to personal opinions on how to read the text. Personally, and except in one single case, I see the Quran strictly describing nature rather than explaining it. Nj7 argues that in the story of Thulqarnayn, this description of nature uses *uncommon language* which precludes the use of idioms, which is, again, a very weak argument since poetry doesn’t have to be confined within the common usage of language, especially when it is telling an epic story of the travels of the Two Horned One. So you can forward my response to nj7, if you want, but I can’t promise I’d be interested in responding to any of the arguments for the alleged scientific errors of the Quran, and nj7’s argument is no exception (although, at least, his argument is novel; but a weak one nevertheless).

Btw, I had a slightly relevant discussion with DigDug here:
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10973.msg299733#msg299733

OFF TOPIC:
Although this is irrelevant to our discussion above, I just wanted to point out that when you read the translation of the Quran, you have to keep in mind that part of the translation you read is actually a translation of Tafsir, rather than the Quranic text itself.

PS: All formatting in the quote, including 'bold', is debunker's.

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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #5 - March 05, 2011, 02:51 AM

Thanks ateapotist and debunker, I appreciate any feedback. I also appreciate no-one really wants to get into a discussion so I'll just make a few quick general remarks. I admit that uncommoness doesn't preclude a meaning for words or phrases, especially given the nature of Arabic poetry as debunker points out. At the same time I'd emphasise that I couldn't find any examples, not just in the Quran, but elsewhere too, nor evidence in Lane's Lexicon (based on far more knowledge of their usage than I can hope to muster) to support the west/east idiom idea. There may well be examples I've not seen, of course, and debunker points out that Arabic poetry deliberately uses words in uncommon ways, and perhaps there's an aesthetic reason. So I can't prove that this interpretation is wrong based on uncommoness, though that's not the only type of problem I show with it. My article does not just give problems with it and the other interpretations based on common usages or otherwise, but on other kinds of serious problems too, and a wealth of evidence supporting the flat earth interpretation. I guess it's a matter of opinion, as debunker says, so each person would have to judge for themselves. In my opinion, my article at least seriously weakens the case for many of the interpretations, severely so for some of them, and strengthens the setting & rising places interpretation. In case anybody's interested, the url of the summary has changed so it can now be found here

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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #6 - March 05, 2011, 03:02 AM

Hi nj7 - not quite sure who you are, have we had an intro from you yet?

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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #7 - March 05, 2011, 08:31 AM

My opinion on this is simple.

The very fact that we are discussing this shows that it could have been made more clear, if there is room for improvement then the Quran is imperfect.

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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #8 - March 05, 2011, 10:53 AM

Quote from: IsLame on March 05, 2011, 03:02 AM
Hi nj7 - not quite sure who you are, have we had an intro from you yet?

Hi Islame, I did a brief sort of intro (in the wrong place) in my 2nd or 3rd post on the forum I think. I forgot to mention, based on debunker's knowlegeable feedback above, I intend to add something to the article mentioning the objection due to the nature of poetry and make the conclusion to section 1 a bit less emphatic (maybe also the final conclusion too).

I also have to agree with TR. I maybe should have made this point more prominent in my article, but the fact (so far as I can see) that we have various hadith in the hadith collections and in early commentaries showing that people took the passage literally in the early days, and nothing before later commentaries indicating alternatives, is surprising if they were wrong. Surely Muhammad would have corrected them given the obvious interest and we'd see the evidence. I guess it could be argued that this is just an argument from silence, or maybe Muhammad had himself misunderstood Allah's revelation here.

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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #9 - March 05, 2011, 10:54 AM

It is exactly this kind of "poetic beauty" which makes the Quran look man made to me, and I cannot subscribe to unconditional commandments from what appears to be merely a human. If Allah had not done this then I would have found it much more credible - and of course Allah knew this before I was even born.

Thanks Allah!

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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #10 - March 13, 2011, 08:46 PM

Quote from: nj7 on March 05, 2011, 10:53 AM
Hi Islame, I did a brief sort of intro (in the wrong place) in my 2nd or 3rd post on the forum I think. I forgot to mention, based on debunker's knowlegeable feedback above, I intend to add something to the article mentioning the objection due to the nature of poetry and make the conclusion to section 1 a bit less emphatic (maybe also the final conclusion too).

I also have to agree with TR. I maybe should have made this point more prominent in my article, but the fact (so far as I can see) that we have various hadith in the hadith collections and in early commentaries showing that people took the passage literally in the early days, and nothing before later commentaries indicating alternatives, is surprising if they were wrong. Surely Muhammad would have corrected them given the obvious interest and we'd see the evidence. I guess it could be argued that this is just an argument from silence, or maybe Muhammad had himself misunderstood Allah's revelation here.

You keep repeating this argument that since early Muslims (including Muhammed), who were ignorant of basic cosmology, read (descriptive) passages of nature and yet projected their own wrong understanding of how nature actually works, then this is an evidence that these passages must fit a flat earth model. i don't really see how this is "an evidence".

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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #11 - March 13, 2011, 09:19 PM

Quote from: nj7 on March 05, 2011, 02:51 AM
Thanks ateapotist and debunker, I appreciate any feedback. I also appreciate no-one really wants to get into a discussion so I'll just make a few quick general remarks. I admit that uncommoness doesn't preclude a meaning for words or phrases, especially given the nature of Arabic poetry as debunker points out. At the same time I'd emphasise that I couldn't find any examples, not just in the Quran, but elsewhere too, nor evidence in Lane's Lexicon (based on far more knowledge of their usage than I can hope to muster) to support the west/east idiom idea. There may well be examples I've not seen, of course, and debunker points out that Arabic poetry deliberately uses words in uncommon ways, and perhaps there's an aesthetic reason. So I can't prove that this interpretation is wrong based on uncommoness, though that's not the only type of problem I show with it. My article does not just give problems with it and the other interpretations based on common usages or otherwise, but on other kinds of serious problems too, and a wealth of evidence supporting the flat earth interpretation. I guess it's a matter of opinion, as debunker says, so each person would have to judge for themselves. In my opinion, my article at least seriously weakens the case for many of the interpretations, severely so for some of them, and strengthens the setting & rising places interpretation. In case anybody's interested, the url of the summary has changed so it can now be found here

yeah, I went through all of them, but frankly they were all no good arguments at all. the best one you got was the uncommoness of the language, well at least it is a new argument.

For example, you say that since a similar story exists in ancient texts, then this means that the author of the Quran necessarily plagiarized (and slightly? altered) the story. So? What's new about this claim? The Quran also has (mostly severly altered) stories similar to those in the Bible, lots of Gnostic gospels, and ancient epics (like the flood story in the epic of Gilgamesh). But that doesn't necessarily disprove the Quranic claim that God existed since forever and He revealed messages of monotheism to humans since the dawn of humanity, that metamorphosed into polytheism.

Anyway, I'd like to know which evidence you personally think is the stronest one against the modern interpretation of the story?

By the way, have you ever thought, even with the assumption that the author of the Quran was only a 7th century poet ignorant of basic cosmology, why would the author "supposedly" emphasize the *actual* rising place of the sun, by giving a desciption as thought the sun were too close to people, while he would ignore to make the same point about the people of the West (being too close to the setting sun)? I mean if the author wanted to say that ThulQarnayn reached the actual rising place of the sun, by "supposedly" emphasizing its closeness, then wouldn't it be fair to say that the author did NOT mean to say that ThulQarnayn reached the actual place of the setting sun, since no description was used to emphasize its "supposed" closeness, when the author mentioned the people of the West?

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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #12 - March 13, 2011, 09:33 PM

Hello, debunker.

I'd like to ask you something, if I may.

Q. 28:88

كُلُّ شَيْءٍ هَالِكٌ إِلاَّ وَجْهَهُ

Does this verse really make sense? How can heaven and hell be eternal if 'every thing perishes save the Face/Being' of Allah?

And while I'm at it... Q. 88:18-20

وَإِلَى ٱلسَّمَآءِ كَيْفَ رُفِعَتْ

وَإِلَىٰ ٱلْجِبَالِ كَيْفَ نُصِبَتْ

وَإِلَى ٱلأَرْضِ كَيْفَ سُطِحَت

The verbs in these verses are both in the passive voice and present tense, yes?
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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #13 - March 13, 2011, 09:40 PM

@ Zebedee

Good point! where does it say (in the Quran) that Hell/Pardise existed before the trumpet is blown?

Anyway, the verse says that ONLY God never perishes/tastes death... everyone/thing else will die/be destroyed (including angels) except God.... for immortality, in its absolute sense, is only God's.

The verbs are in passive voice but in past tense.

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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #14 - March 13, 2011, 09:50 PM

just to clarify, the Islamic belief is that everything and everyone (except God) dies (even angels), but some will be resurrected (like, angels, humans, but not animals, for example)

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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #15 - March 13, 2011, 11:17 PM

Quote from: debunker on March 13, 2011, 09:40 PM
@ Zebedee

Good point! where does it say (in the Quran) that Hell/Pardise existed before the trumpet is blown?

Q. 26:90-1
And the Garden will be brought near for those who ward off (evil). And hell will appear plainly to the erring.

Q. 81:12-3

[81:12]
when Hell shall be set blazing, when Paradise shall be brought near...

Hm, these verses don't really seem to say that heaven and hell are created on the Last Day, although you might be able to interpret 81:12 like that, but I don't know the exact meaning of the word used.

There's no statement to definitively prove your contention, that paradise and hell are created on the eschaton, but let's look at some ahadith.

Bukhari obviously. Maybe you'd accept some of his hadith

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 462:

Narrated Ibn Abbas:

The Prophet said, "On the night of my Ascent to the Heaven, I saw Moses who was a tall brown curly-haired man as if he was one of the men of Shan'awa tribe, and I saw Jesus, a man of medium height and moderate complexion inclined to the red and white colors and of lank hair. I also saw Malik, the gate-keeper of the (Hell) Fire and Ad-Dajjal amongst the signs which Allah showed me." (The Prophet then recited the Holy Verse): "So be not you in doubt of meeting him' when you met Moses during the night of Mi'raj over the heavens" (32.23)

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 474:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

The Prophet said, "There is a tree in Paradise (which is so big and huge that) if a rider travels in its shade for one hundred years, he would not be able to cross it."

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 482:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The (Hell) Fire complained to its Lord saying, 'O my Lord! My different parts eat up each other.' So, He allowed it to take two breaths, one in the winter and the other in summer, and this is the reason for the severe heat and the bitter cold you find (in weather)."

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 483:

Narrated Abu Jamra Ad-Dabi:

I used to sit with Ibn 'Abbas in Mecca. Once I had a fever and he said (to me), "Cool your fever with Zam-zam water, for Allah's Apostle said: 'It, (the Fever) is
from the heat of the (Hell) Fire; so, cool it with water (or Zam-zam water)."

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 484:

Narrated Rafi bin Khadij:

I heard the Prophet saying, "Fever is from the heat of the (Hell) Fire; so cool it with water."

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 485:

Narrated Aisha:

The Prophet said, "Fever is from the heat of the (Hell) Fire, so cool it with water."

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 486:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

The Prophet said, "Fever is from the heat of the (Hell) Fire; so abate fever with water."

Etc., etc. There's also the hadith in which Paradise and Fire dispute with each other, but I can't think of the reference now.

Aside from that, in the Qur'an there's the thing with Muhammad being taken to Paradise and shown the Lote tree and all the rest of it.

Q. 53:13-8
Indeed, he saw him another time by the Lote-Tree of the Boundary nigh which is the Garden of the Refuge, when there covered the Lote-Tree that which covered; his eye swerved not; nor swept astray. Indeed, he saw one of the greatest signs of his Lord.

Seems to me that these verses do say that at least paradise exists presently, and that Muhammad saw it, or parts of it.
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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #16 - March 13, 2011, 11:24 PM

Quote
Anyway, the verse says that ONLY God never perishes/tastes death... everyone/thing else will die/be destroyed (including angels) except God.... for immortality, in its absolute sense, is only God's.

Quote
just to clarify, the Islamic belief is that everything and everyone (except God) dies (even angels), but some will be resurrected (like, angels, humans, but not animals, for example)

Hm, not sure. Seems to me that if Paradise and Hell are created and then never cease to be, never perish, then this verse necessarily cannot be correct. Note that the verse says 'every thing' not 'every living thing' or 'every intelligent thing.' All things. But I guess we'll agree to disagree, otherwise we'll probably just be going round in circles.

Quote
The verbs are in passive voice but in past tense.

Thanks.
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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #17 - March 13, 2011, 11:41 PM

@ zebedee

Quote
There's no statement to definitively prove your contention, that paradise and hell are created on the eschaton, but let's look at some ahadith.

Hm, not sure. Seems to me that if Paradise and Hell are created and then never cease to be, never perish, then this verse necessarily cannot be correct. Note that the verse says 'every thing' not 'every living thing' or 'every intelligent thing.' All things. But I guess we'll agree to disagree, otherwise we'll probably just be going round in circles.

Actually, i was interested in your question because of the potential contradiction it implies. The Hadith contradicting the Quran either explicitly or implicitly is nothing new to me at all, but I was wondering as to the potential of contradiction within the Quran regarding this issue.

We know that, according to Quran, Hell and Paradise are nondestructable once created. However, when I re-read the verses in question: it actually says: and all *who* are on *it* will perish, and remains your Lord's glorious face...

the point is *all who* can only be used to refer to intelligent beings (Jinn/humans/angels).

Here's the verse in Arabic and Hassan (or IA) can attest to what I'm saying:

كُلُّ مَنْ عَلَيْهَا فَانٍ «26» وَيَبْقَى وَجْهُ رَبِّكَ ذُو الْجَلَالِ وَالْإِكْرَامِ

if it said:

كل ما instead of كل من then it would have necessarily meant everything (including everyone).

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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #18 - March 13, 2011, 11:44 PM

why.. oh why this bunker is here?

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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #19 - March 13, 2011, 11:47 PM

Quote
why.. oh why this bunker is here?

fuck off, you stupid attention whore... aren't you getting enough attention in your other thread?

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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #20 - March 13, 2011, 11:51 PM

@Debunker

Pardon me, but being an anglophone, my grasp of other languages is quite pathetic. Nevertheless, my Arabic not being what it might be, the meaning of the verse that I posted is quite clear to me. It's not the one you quoted there.

Al-Qasas: 88

وَلاَ تَدْعُ مَعَ ٱللَّهِ إِلَـٰهاً آخَرَ لاَ إِلَـٰهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ كُلُّ شَيْءٍ هَالِكٌ إِلاَّ وَجْهَهُ لَهُ ٱلْحُكْمُ وَإِلَيْهِ تُرْجَعُونَ

And do not call on Allah with another god, there is no god but He; every thing (kulla shay'in) perishes except His Face, His is the command and to Him you return.

So what surah did you quote?
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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #21 - March 14, 2011, 12:00 AM

I quoted alRahman,

yes, the verse you quoted says: everything will *die*. Now, i'm not really sure, but in Arabic, although the verse used the word *everything*, using *will die* after it, means every living thing will die. Ask Hassan, I could be wrong.

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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #22 - March 14, 2011, 12:01 AM

Of course, you could always interpret it as saying 'everything is perishable,' in which case it would just mean that only God is immortal and immutable. Nevertheless, a lot of the translations do render it as 'will perish' so I guess that's a valid reading nevertheless.
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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #23 - March 14, 2011, 12:04 AM

the word is هالك and it does mean will perish but i never heard it being used with non living things, ask Hassan (I could be wrong)

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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #24 - March 14, 2011, 12:11 AM

In any case, I don't think I remember any verses referring to Hell/Paradise being created before the death of everyone, except for one where it says that Paradise has been prepared for the righteous... and with the Quran usually speaking in the past tense for afterlife events, it's hard to be certain.

I'll have to investigate this a bit more, but if Hassan approves of my previous post, then it's settled.

By the way, there are Hadiths where the prophet supposedly saw the people of fire, but these were describing him seeing the future.

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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #25 - March 14, 2011, 01:10 AM

Quote from: Zebedee on March 13, 2011, 09:33 PM

And while I'm at it... Q. 88:18-20

وَإِلَى ٱلسَّمَآءِ كَيْفَ رُفِعَتْ

وَإِلَىٰ ٱلْجِبَالِ كَيْفَ نُصِبَتْ

وَإِلَى ٱلأَرْضِ كَيْفَ سُطِحَت

The verbs in these verses are both in the passive voice and present tense, yes?

by the way, i think the reason for confusion is differences between Arabic and th eEnglish language. the translators used the present tense I *guess* because that's how it should be in English... I think you can't say in english "look at the earth how it *was* spread out", can you?

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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #26 - March 14, 2011, 01:17 AM

Quote from: debunker on March 13, 2011, 11:47 PM
fuck off, you stupid attention whore... aren't you getting enough attention in your other thread?

Because I am an attention whore, there is no amount of attention that is enough for me.. I would always want more.. I think may be I should claim prophet-hood!

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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #27 - March 14, 2011, 01:22 AM

*shrugs*

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #28 - March 14, 2011, 01:30 AM

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I'll have to investigate this a bit more, but if Hassan approves of my previous post, then it's settled.

In checked the online Lane's Lexicon. No luck finding the word. I do, however, have a Qur'anic dictionary based on the Lexicon, Taj al-Arus, Lisan al-Arab, and so forth, which does have the word. It says:

هلك Perished, Died, Lost. Yahlika: (imp. 3rd p. m. sing.) Might/would die or perish. Halikun (هالك) (act. pic. m. sing.) -- p. 592

Seems to me that it means both 'die' and 'perish.' Doesn't say anything at all about it applying exclusively to intelligent beings.

It's this dictionary, by the way: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dictionary-Holy-Quran-English-Meanings/dp/0963206796/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1300066032&sr=8-7
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Re: sunset and sunrise in sura al-kahf
Reply #29 - March 14, 2011, 01:35 AM

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by the way, i think the reason for confusion is differences between Arabic and th eEnglish language. the translators used the present tense I *guess* because that's how it should be in English... I think you can't say in english "look at the earth how it *was* spread out", can you?

Not if it's in the present tense, no. If you use the word 'was' it's automatically past tense.

But those verses I thought you might be able to express in English as:

And to the sky, how it is raised, and to the mountains, how they are set, and to the earth, how it is spread.

But you said that the verbs were past tense. Are they actually in a distinct past tense form? Would they look different if they were present tense, and if so, how?
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