A better Quran

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- TheRationalizer
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #60 - March 28, 2011, 10:56 AM

Done, thanks! How is that now?

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http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
- nj7
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #61 - March 28, 2011, 11:05 AM

Very good! I still think it would greatly boost the stop-and-think power if you make clear in the problem section that it's a real controversy among scholars . Otherwise they may have only seen/will check translations that go with option 2 (most translators do). They may also assume that the ambiguity is removed somewhere else in the Qur'an. Only by mentioning the controversy can you convince them that this verse really has a problem. It's such a key and potentially convincing case that it's worth perfecting it as much as possible.

You could for example add these words to the problem:

Due to a lack of punctuation in oral recitation this verse is unclear as to whether only Allah knows the meaning of unclear verses, or Allah and believers. To this day there is sharp disagreement between Muslim scholars as to which is correct.

http://quranspotlight.wordpress.com/
- TheRationalizer
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #62 - March 28, 2011, 11:07 AM

What is the most credible link you have which discusses this issue?

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- nj7
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #63 - March 28, 2011, 11:32 AM

I'd suggest 2 links:
ibn Kathir to show it's a long standing problem among respected scgholars
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=3&tid=7740
(he gives your orginal text 1 interpretation first, then orig. text 2)

and/or the one I gave above (I can't see anything that is obviously more credible, and it puts it really clearly): http://www.afosa.org/al-hujjat/205-clear-unclear-verses.html

Maybe the ex-muslims here can suggest a more credible site? I mostly get loads of discussion forum topics on it and blogs when I search. I'll see if I can find a better one again later.

btw, I just noticed that you mixed round 1 and 2 in the new text. Currently, Orig. text 1 goes with new text 2 and vice versa.

http://quranspotlight.wordpress.com/
- cosmicdancer
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #64 - March 28, 2011, 11:37 AM

Verse: 24:2
Problem: Qur'an doesn't make it clear if the 100 lashes are for unmarried or married fornicators/adulterers or both.
Solution: Make it clear.
New verse: The married & unmarried (or one or the other) guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred lashes...
- TheRationalizer
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #65 - March 28, 2011, 11:50 AM

Hassan, but if it were not applicable to adulterers would you not expect it to read exactly how it is?

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- TheRationalizer
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #66 - March 28, 2011, 11:52 AM

@Everyone:
I think these vague verses which people dispute are our low-hanging fruit that are easily picked. If people are questioning the meaning of these verses then they are practically begging for us to make them more clear!

So if anyone knows of any verses which are commonly disputed then please let me know, I think we should add these first!

@NJ7: Updated, please take a look. Added links to the top of pages also.

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Re: A better Quran
Reply #67 - March 28, 2011, 12:30 PM

Very good, crystal clear! As well as the very useful backlinks you've added, maybe also making the logo a link to homepage (that's the first place I moved my mouse expecting a hyperlink) so visitors who arrive at a case can go straight to the homepage and have some idea the purpose of the site and what it's all about.

@everyone
re TR's comment ^ if you search google for "mutashabih" (which is the word used to describe the unclear verses) and other words such as "verses" or "examples" etc., that's an easy way to find more examples of these low hanging fruit.

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- Zebedee
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #68 - March 28, 2011, 01:34 PM

See Q. 81:17

وَٱللَّيْلِ إِذَا عَسْعَسَ

By the night when it recedes/approaches

The word ''as'asa' in this verse has opposite meanings, as explained by the exegetes:

Jalalayn: and by the night as it approaches, as it falls with its darkness, or as it recedes

Ibn Kathir: (when it `As`as) "This means when it goes away.'' Mujahid, Qatadah and Ad-Dahhak, all said the same. Zayd bin Aslam and his son `Abdur-Rahman also made a similar statement, when they said, (when it `As`as) "This means when it leaves, and thus it turns away.'' I believe that the intent in Allah's saying, (when it `As`as) is when it approaches, even though it is correct to use this word for departing also. However, approachment is a more suitable usage here.... Many of the scholars of the fundamentals of language have said that the word `As`as is used to mean advancing and retreating

Solution: Use a word which gives the intended meaning. Or if both meanings are intended, use two words to mention both.
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #69 - March 28, 2011, 01:55 PM

Zebedee. Although the hadiths here seem to disagree I think the Quran is very clear. It must be as the night leaves because it reads like this

16: The stars hide themselves
17: The night _____
18: The morning arrives

I don't think this one is strong enough to convince anyone, they will just laugh at us

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- yeezevee
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #70 - March 28, 2011, 01:59 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 28, 2011, 11:52 AM
@Everyone:

I think these vague verses which people dispute are our low-hanging fruit that are easily picked. If people are questioning the meaning of these verses then they are practically begging for us to make them more clear!

So if anyone knows of any verses which are commonly disputed then please let me know, I think we should add these first!

@NJ7: Updated, please take a look. Added links to the top of pages also.

Huh!? what??
you guys are trying make Quran better??
how can you do that?
By changing the original Arabic words? or by softening the translated versions??
But don't you guys realize that the words of Allah was never changed and can not be changed?

I am very certain that you guys are NOT going to make better Quran for the believers, you are actually BATTERING Quran and you guys are making a BITTER QURAN FOR THE BELIEVERS. .

It may sound better for you guys, but it will be bitter for them..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #71 - March 28, 2011, 02:03 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 28, 2011, 01:55 PM
Zebedee. Although the hadiths here seem to disagree I think the Quran is very clear. It must be as the night leaves because it reads like this

16: The stars hide themselves
17: The night _____
18: The morning arrives

Fair enough.
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #72 - March 28, 2011, 02:06 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on March 28, 2011, 02:03 PM
Fair enough.

Please do continue to contribute though. What I am looking for is things which make the Quran difficult to accept rather than every little improvement we can come up with. Address the difficult issues, the ones which are difficult to answer when people point them out. Those ones will appeal to people on an emotional level.

I think this might illustrate what I am after

Christian : The Quran has errors
Muslim: Show me just one!
Christian : Verse X:Y
Muslim : It says "Kill people" but what it means is "don't kill people"
Christian : Then wouldn't it have been better if it had the word "don't" in there?

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- Zebedee
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #73 - March 28, 2011, 02:11 PM

Alright, Rationalizer. 10 quid says you can't make head nor tail of this one:

[38:44]
and, ’Take in thy hand a bundle of rushes, and strike therewith, and do not fail in thy oath.’ Surely We found him a steadfast man. How excellent a servant he was! He was a penitent.

The Question is, strike what? What's this oath being talked about?
- TheRationalizer
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #74 - March 28, 2011, 02:12 PM

I recall this verse. It is when you find a dead person and nobody knows who killed him. You should slap him with a piece of meat and he will come alive and tell you who killed him. Or is that another verse?

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- Zebedee
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #75 - March 28, 2011, 02:42 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 28, 2011, 02:12 PM
I recall this verse. It is when you find a dead person and nobody knows who killed him. You should slap him with a piece of meat and he will come alive and tell you who killed him. Or is that another verse?

It's a different verse.

The verse you're talking about is Q 2:73. This one is in Surah Sad, which makes for some interesting reading generally. But essentially, in this verse Job made an oath that we would strike his wife 100 times, and Allah commands him to hit her with 100 sticks//twigs/reeds at once. Problem is, you simply wouldn't know this from the text, you'd have to go to the Bible to find out what it was actually talking about. Also interesting in this surah:

Solomon kills his horses:

[38:30-3]
And We gave unto David Solomon; how excellent a servant he was! He was a penitent. When in the evening were presented to him the standing steeds, he said, ’Lo, I have loved the love of good things better than the remembrance of my Lord, until the sun was bidden behind the veil. Return them to me!’ And he began to stroke their shanks and necks.
- cosmicdancer
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #76 - March 28, 2011, 03:33 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 28, 2011, 11:50 AM
Hassan, but if it were not applicable to adulterers would you not expect it to read exactly how it is?

No its v ambigious and can refer to both as modernists claim
- TheRationalizer
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #77 - March 28, 2011, 03:35 PM

Quote from: Hassan on March 28, 2011, 03:33 PM
No its v ambigious and can refer to both as modernists claim

Is it something in the Arabic? I thought there was a clear difference between adulterers and fornicators?

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- cosmicdancer
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #78 - March 28, 2011, 04:30 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 28, 2011, 03:35 PM
Is it something in the Arabic? I thought there was a clear difference between adulterers and fornicators?

Zani can mean adulterer or fornicator - or both!

In other words it can be used by those who argue it only refers to fornicators as hadith says the adulterer should be stoned (as most traditional tafseers say) - and it can be used by modernists trying to deny that stoning is part of Islam by saying it refers to adulterers and fornicators (and some even say it refers to adulterers only!)

God could quite easily have cleared this up (and saved men & women being stoned to death for 1400 years up to today) - by making clear this is for married or unmarried or both.

It would also have been nice if the Qur'an stated clearly that stoning is not allowed in Islam (as many modernists claim) as he obviously knew this ambiguity would lead to the horrible unnecessary murder of many women (it's mainly women).

Islam came to liberate women - sadly it's mainly only modern Muslims living in the west who have "discovered" this 1400 years later. [/sarcasm]
- Saif Rahman
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #79 - March 28, 2011, 04:58 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 28, 2011, 02:06 PM
Please do continue to contribute though. What I am looking for is things which make the Quran difficult to accept rather than every little improvement we can come up with. Address the difficult issues, the ones which are difficult to answer when people point them out. Those ones will appeal to people on an emotional level.

I think this might illustrate what I am after

Christian : The Quran has errors
Muslim: Show me just one!
Christian : Verse X:Y
Muslim : It says "Kill people" but what it means is "don't kill people"
Christian : Then wouldn't it have been better if it had the word "don't" in there?

Muslims say we should treat our wives well.

so 4:34 and replace 'beat' with 'dont beat'

Is this what you're after?

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- debunker
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #80 - March 28, 2011, 05:01 PM

@ hassan

the Quran stated clearly that the punishment for adulterers/fornicators is lashing (no mentioning of stoning). I could show yyou the verses, but anyway, even salafi Sheikhs admit that the punishment in the Quran for both adulterers/fornicators is lashing, BUT they say that there used to be verses in the Quran that prescribed stoning for adulterers, abrogating lashing adulteres, but these verses were removed by God, but the prescription remains valid!

And when they're asked why would God keep the verses that prescribe lashing for adultery, remove the verses prescribing stoning, WHILE expect us to ignore the former and follow the (invisible) latter, they would say: it's a test from God! To see if we would follow prophet Bukhari/Muslim or not.

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- debunker
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #81 - March 28, 2011, 05:05 PM

@ hassan

Here's a fatwa in Arabic regarding this "test":
http://www.ibnothaimeen.com/all/noor/article_6356.shtml

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- cosmicdancer
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #82 - March 28, 2011, 05:10 PM

Quote from: debunker on March 28, 2011, 05:01 PM
@ hassan

the Quran stated clearly that the punishment for adulterers/fornicators is lashing (no mentioning of stoning). I could show yyou the verses, but anyway, even salafi Sheikhs admit that the punishment in the Quran for both adulterers/fornicators is lashing, BUT they say that there used to be verses in the Quran that prescribed stoning for adulterers, abrogating lashing adulteres, but these verses were removed by God, but the prescription remains valid!

And when they're asked why would God keep the verses that prescribe lashing for adultery, remove the verses prescribing stoning, WHILE expect us to ignore the former and follow the (invisible) latter, they would say: it's a test from God! To see if we would follow prophet Bukhari/Muslim or not.

Debunker, I'm not concerned here with the arguments for or against stoning - only that the Qur'an could have made it absolutely clear that these verses refer to both married and unmarried (i.e. saying something like المحصنين وغير المحصنين) and could also easily have added that stoning is forbidden.

Regardless of how clear some Muslims today claim it already is, the reality of the last 1400 years prove otherwise.
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #83 - March 28, 2011, 05:15 PM

@ hassan

consider this verse from Sura Nisa, for example:

وَمَن لَّمْ يَسْتَطِعْ مِنكُمْ طَوْلاً أَن يَنكِحَ الْمُحْصَنَاتِ الْمُؤْمِنَاتِ فَمِن مِّا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُم مِّن فَتَيَاتِكُمُ الْمُؤْمِنَاتِ وَاللّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِإِيمَانِكُمْ بَعْضُكُم مِّن بَعْضٍ فَانكِحُوهُنَّ بِإِذْنِ أَهْلِهِنَّ وَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ مُحْصَنَاتٍ غَيْرَ مُسَافِحَاتٍ وَلاَ مُتَّخِذَاتِ أَخْدَانٍ فَإِذَا أُحْصِنَّ فَإِنْ أَتَيْنَ بِفَاحِشَةٍ فَعَلَيْهِنَّ نِصْفُ مَا عَلَى الْمُحْصَنَاتِ مِنَ الْعَذَابِ ذَلِكَ لِمَنْ خَشِيَ الْعَنَتَ مِنْكُمْ وَأَن تَصْبِرُواْ خَيْرٌ لَّكُمْ وَاللّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ (25)0

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- cosmicdancer
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #84 - March 28, 2011, 05:15 PM

Quote from: debunker on March 28, 2011, 05:05 PM
@ hassan

Here's a fatwa in Arabic regarding this "test":
http://www.ibnothaimeen.com/all/noor/article_6356.shtml

Boy! God sure loves his little games, doesn't he?
- debunker
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #85 - March 28, 2011, 05:19 PM

Quote from: Hassan on March 28, 2011, 05:10 PM
Debunker, I'm not concerned here with the arguments for or against stoning - only that the Qur'an could have made it absolutely clear that these verses refer to both married and unmarried (i.e. saying something like المحصنين وغير المحصنين) and could also easily have added that stoning is forbidden.

Regardless of how clear some Muslims today claim it already is, the reality of the last 1400 years prove otherwise.

the stoning is based on hadiths (none of which is Mutawatir), and claims in hadith that the Quran did, once, have verses prescribing stoning, but God removed them to "test" us and see if we would follow prophets Bukhari/Muslim.

Anyway, Check the verse i just posted in my previous post... so if someone married a slave girl and she cheated on him (and he somehow could produce 4 witnesses) she should receive HALF the punishment that would befall a free married woman. Certainly that couldn't be half killing her.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #86 - March 28, 2011, 05:21 PM

Quote from: Hassan on March 28, 2011, 05:15 PM
Boy! God sure loves his little games, doesn't he?

that's according to Salafis, at least, yes.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #87 - March 28, 2011, 05:24 PM

Quote from: debunker on March 28, 2011, 05:19 PM
the stoning is based on hadiths...

Yes, true, fair point.

Quote from: debunker on March 28, 2011, 05:19 PM
Anyway, Check the verse i just posted in my previous post... so if someone married a slave girl and she cheated on him (and he somehow could produce 4 witnesses) she should receive HALF the punishment that would befall a free married woman. Certainly that couldn't be half killing her.

lol... another very good point!
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #88 - March 28, 2011, 05:26 PM

@Islame, yes but I already have that one

@Hassan, thanks for explaining! Can you name a country which implements the harsher sentence for adultery?
http://thebetterquran.com/Cases/View/27

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- debunker
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #89 - March 28, 2011, 05:54 PM

Quote
@Hassan, thanks for explaining! Can you name a country which implements the harsher sentence for adultery?

Iran/Afghanistan for sure. (but I challenge anyone to show a single case of stoning in Saudi Arabia/Kuwait/qatar/Oman/UAE/Bahrain).

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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