A better Quran

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A better Quran
OP - March 14, 2011, 11:36 AM

You know how when you debate a theist instead of arguing their theism they will argue the existence of god, as if proving god means that their religion is true by default? I realised something, the "Produce a sura like it" challenge is exactly that.

Why waste our time showing we can produce a sura like that in the Quran only for it to be subjectively rejected? All we have to do is to show that the Quran itself can be improved. If we can show even 1 improvement to the Quran it would show it is not of divine origin because a mere human has made it better than the author.

I am not talking about entire rewrites of crap, such as creation, but very simple examples which are concise and can be understood by anyone. The improvements could be outlined like so

Verse: ...........
Problem: ........
Solution: ........
New verse: .....

For example
Quote
Case 1
Verse:
18:86 - Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it going down into a muddy spring

Problem:
This can be misunderstood to mean the Earth is flat, because it implies a single point at which the sun sets, and that it sets into a muddy spring.

Solution:
Substitute "the place" and "into a muddy spring"

New verse:
Till, when he reached *A* place where the sun was setting, he found it going down *BEHIND* a muddy spring.

The idea is to change as little as possible, this way the reader will see the same "beauty" but have to accept that it is also more accurate.

So rather than producing some bollocks that only 5% of the world population can read, and no fucker is interested in, we could instead create a WIKI showing all the nuances in the Quran which could have been improved. Proving that the Quran has room for improvement leads one to a single conclusion....it is imperfect.

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Re: A better Quran
Reply #1 - March 14, 2011, 11:54 AM

Most muslims would just be like 'the arabic of quran is sooo poetic and miraculous, you can't recreate it'

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Re: A better Quran
Reply #2 - March 14, 2011, 11:56 AM

That's the point, we won't be recreating it. We will be showing that the new Arabic is equal (because it is so similar) but that we have improved on the meaning. Room for improvement in any way shows it is imperfect.

We aren't trying to persuade every Muslim here, just trying to get some people to think about claims they take for granted such as "The Quran IS the miracle".

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Re: A better Quran
Reply #3 - March 14, 2011, 11:56 AM

I have already created one.. http://thefsmquran.blogspot.com

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Re: A better Quran
Reply #4 - March 14, 2011, 11:58 AM

Muddy, that's nothing like what I suggested

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Re: A better Quran
Reply #5 - March 14, 2011, 12:01 PM

Ah, I see, that's interesting. We'd probably need help from the arabic members of the site.

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Re: A better Quran
Reply #6 - March 14, 2011, 12:08 PM

For example (completely false) the Arabic for 18:86 might be

Before/After
Hatta itha balagha maghriba alshshamsi wajadaha taghrubu fee AAaynin
Hatta itha balagha maghribun alshshamsi wajadaha taghrubu fee AAaynin

I changed maghriba to some fictitious alternative which would mean "A PLACE" rather than "THE PLACE".

In taking this approach we are moving the goal posts completely. Just like how a theist tries to get us to argue god (abiogenesis, bigbang) to avoid scrutinising scripture this "produce one like it" tries to get us to produce a whole shit load of text in order to avoid us pointing out that all we actually need to do is to show places in the Quran where tiny changes would not remove the apparent beauty of the Quran but would also improve it.

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Re: A better Quran
Reply #7 - March 16, 2011, 07:23 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 14, 2011, 11:36 AM
You know how when you debate a theist instead of arguing their theism they will argue the existence of god, as if proving god means that their religion is true by default?

I think this applies for Abrahamic religions only.

All 3 Abrahamic religions appear to speak about a Supreme Being.

In so far the religions that support and worship a Supreme Being are

Zoroastrianism - Ahura Mazda

Abrahamic religions

Judaism - Yahweh
Christianity - Holy Trinity
Islam - Allah
Bahai - Allah

Dharmic religions

Hinduism [Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva/Saraswati/Lakshmi/Durga/Ganesha/Skanda]

Sikhism [Waheguru]

So if we identify a God who is not of a particular sort.

Some of these religions are more accurate in their definition/understanding of God. So of these religions one of them will be the "truest" of them all.

So if we manage to "establish" the "existence of God" somehow. Whichever religion comes closer to the establishment would be more rightful as claiming "God" as theirs.

Now what are the ways in which we can attempt to gauge which religion is specifically that of "God".

The answer is 1) only God knows for sure 2) there must be a way of finding this out

And from this I'm thinking of several.

- which of these religions was the first to speak about a Supreme Being?
- which of these religions is the oldest?
- which of these religions have evolved the most, in a way which reflective of human spiritual evolution and human capacity to understand God better?
- which of these religions have the most to say about the "supernatural
and "God" in terms of depth?
- which of these religions have the most to say about differing views about "God" - in terms of the nature of God in all ways so far?
- which of these religions have the most all-encompassing philosophies?
- which of these religions have the most sophisticated philosophies?
- which of these religions have the most complicated/intellectually rich scriptures?
- which of these religions concern themselves more than just God and seek to include all other aspects of human existence?
- which of these religions seem to have "God" involving Himself the most? an interaction of some sort? something we can find that would make us most sure should God choose to make Himself known to mankind and is concerned with mankind and the spirituality of mankind?
- which of these religions have concepts of revelations, and an extensive tradition surrounding them, and the most ancient of revelations?
- which of these religions seem to include all of humanity on a wider scope?
- which of these religions have more to say about the chosen individuals who recieved revelations?
- which of these religions have a specific ethnic group/bloodlines that trace themselves to these chosen individuals?
- which of these religions seem to be followable not just from the perspective of religion. but as a way of life to follow apart from the theological aspects?
- which of these religions are what the word "spirituality" truly stand for?
- which of these religions appear to be the most well rooted to the core of humanity?
- which of these religions are strongly centred in the region they originate from, not just simply but in a way that its history is written into its theology, and on a deep level that speaks beyond soil and people?
- which of these religions speak of the Supreme Being, in a way that He is most adorable?

Fake friends flatter you. Their compliments are made up. Nasty enemies criticize you harshly. They pick on you unnecessarily. Neither of them help you improve yourself. The best critic is honest and knows you exactly and the best person you can choose to follow is someone closest to you.
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #8 - March 16, 2011, 07:48 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 14, 2011, 11:36 AM
So rather than producing some bollocks that only 5% of the world population can read, and no fucker is interested in, we could instead create a WIKI showing all the nuances in the Quran which could have been improved. Proving that the Quran has room for improvement leads one to a single conclusion....it is imperfect.

Great idea, TheRationalizer.

I like your original ideas. Keep them coming. It's always good to spend one's efforts on areas that have not been covered a thousand times already.

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Re: A better Quran
Reply #9 - March 16, 2011, 08:36 PM

@maxwell
Although interesting your post was off topic

@ateapotist
Get cracking on some examples

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Re: A better Quran
Reply #10 - March 16, 2011, 08:39 PM

I like it. Another example would be

Before:

21:30 Do the Unbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, before We clove them asunder? We made every living thing from water. Will they not then believe?

After:

21:30 Do the Unbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth did not exist, before We expanded the universe? We made every living thing from atoms. Will they not then believe?
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #11 - March 16, 2011, 08:42 PM

That's a good one! Remove "assunder" and change "cells" (a word that would not have existed at the time) and replace it with "atoms"....or...."dying stars" would have been an absolute killer!

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Re: A better Quran
Reply #12 - March 16, 2011, 08:46 PM

Done.

I do like the word "asunder". Technically expanding the universe and expanding it asunder (apart) is the same thing, no?
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #13 - March 16, 2011, 08:53 PM

13:2
Before
God is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see

After
God is He Who formed the heavens

I removed "that you can see" because these words include the possibility of invisible pillars. I also changed "raised" to "formed" because this could easily be misunderstood as a geocentric creation where the Earth existed and the heavens were raised up from it - as per the incorrect creation story of Genesis.

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Re: A better Quran
Reply #14 - March 16, 2011, 08:56 PM

I've just learned that I have been repeatedly spelling "asunder" incorrectly

Asunder means "apart", this leaves in the imperfection of implying that the Earth + heavens have in some way been parted when in fact we are all still part of the same thing.

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Re: A better Quran
Reply #15 - March 16, 2011, 08:58 PM

Before:

"Men are (meant to be righteous and kind) guardians of women because God has favored some more than others and because they (i.e. men) spend out of their wealth. (In their turn) righteous women are (meant to be) devoted and to guard what God has (willed to be) guarded even though out of sight (of the husband). As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) separate them in beds (and last) beat them. But if they obey you, then seek nothing against them. Behold, God is most high and great. (4:34)

After:

"Men are (meant to be righteous and kind) guardians of women because God has favored some more than others and because they (i.e. men) spend out of their wealth. (In their turn) righteous women are (meant to be) devoted and to guard what God has (willed to be) guarded even though out of sight (of the husband). As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) separate them in beds (and last) beat them lightly with a toothpick so as to not cause any physical harm. But if they obey you, then seek nothing against them. Behold, God is most high and great. (4:34)
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #16 - March 16, 2011, 08:59 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 16, 2011, 08:56 PM
I've just learned that I have been repeatedly spelling "asunder" incorrectly

Asunder means "apart", this leaves in the imperfection of implying that the Earth + heavens have in some way been parted when in fact we are all still part of the same thing.

True.
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #17 - March 16, 2011, 09:05 PM

Before:

Qur’an, 4:24: “Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allâh ordained (Prohibitions) against you.”

After:

Qur’an, 4:24: “Also (prohibited are) women already married, and if you possess any slaves you should let them go: Thus hath Allâh ordained (Prohibitions) against you.”
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #18 - March 16, 2011, 09:07 PM

Before:

Allah directs you in regard of your Children’s (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females…. These are settled portions ordained by Allah. (4:11)

After:

Allah directs you in regard of your Children’s (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of the female…. These are settled portions ordained by Allah. (4:11)
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #19 - March 16, 2011, 11:31 PM

There are many examples of this in the Quran, where the prophet forgets that the Quran was meant to be the words of God, and starts talking as if it’s from himself.

also there is this..

Quote from: Abbas Abdul Noor, Hassan
The verse in Quran 5:69, إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَالَّذِينَ هَادُوا وَالصَّابِئُونَ وَالنَّصَارَى is saying “here are many peoples coming to the show today."

The mistake is the word الصَّابِئُونَ

It is in the Nominative Case (الرفع) when it should be in the Accusative Case (النصب).

In another example, "The guilty will be known by their markings and will be seized by their forelocks and their feet." (55:41)

Here the word ‘seized’ should be in the plural, (it should be يؤخذون and not يؤخذ ) since it refers to ‘The guilty’ ( المجرمون ) as a plural noun.

It is a very basic rule of grammar that the particle إِنَّ makes the nouns that it is referring to Accusative Case (النصب).

A simple example that you will find all over the Qur'an is: إِنَّ اللَّهَ The noun Allah (اللَّهَ) has the Fatha ( َ) at the end to denote it is in the Accusative Case, rather than the Damma ( ُ ) that would denote the Nominative Case.

When it comes to plural nouns the Nominative case is denoted by a long "oona" vowel (ون) and the Accusative Cases by a long "eena" vowel (ين).

Here are some examples from the Quran:

يَقُولُ الْمُنَافِقُونَ is in the Nominative إِنَّ الْمُنَافِقِينَ is in the Accusative because it has إِنَّ

It is a simple and basic rule of grammar. Not only that, but two other verses that are almost identical have the correct Accusative case:

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَالَّذِينَ هَادُوا وَالصَّابِئِينَ وَالنَّصَارَى (22:17)
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَالَّذِينَ هَادُوا وَالنَّصَارَى وَالصَّابِئِينَ (2:62)

It is clear to me Muhammad (or a scribe) just made simple, and easy to make, mistakes.

All the great scholars of the past then had to rush to explain it away to preserve the integrity of what they believed was the "Perfect" word of God. Just as they did with all the other many anomalies in the Qur'an.

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Re: A better Quran
Reply #20 - March 16, 2011, 11:34 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 14, 2011, 11:36 AM
You know how when you debate a theist instead of arguing their theism they will argue the existence of god, as if proving god means that their religion is true by default? I realised something, the "Produce a sura like it" challenge is exactly that.

Why waste our time showing we can produce a sura like that in the Quran only for it to be subjectively rejected? All we have to do is to show that the Quran itself can be improved. If we can show even 1 improvement to the Quran it would show it is not of divine origin because a mere human has made it better than the author.

I am not talking about entire rewrites of crap, such as creation, but very simple examples which are concise and can be understood by anyone. The improvements could be outlined like so

Verse: ...........
Problem: ........
Solution: ........
New verse: .....

For example
The idea is to change as little as possible, this way the reader will see the same "beauty" but have to accept that it is also more accurate.

So rather than producing some bollocks that only 5% of the world population can read, and no fucker is interested in, we could instead create a WIKI showing all the nuances in the Quran which could have been improved. Proving that the Quran has room for improvement leads one to a single conclusion....it is imperfect.

Nice lol
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #21 - March 17, 2011, 01:34 AM

^^ Don't lol. TheRationalizer is dead serious about this.

I will get to work with this when I get the time.

A verse I always found funny, is verse 4:43 (about not praying while drunk), but this verse is explained away by abrogation after the prohibition of alcohol. So forget that one. (Unless you want to argue that the whole concept of abrogation makes the Quran (by itself) an unclear book and unfit to serve as a guide for all time. But that's another argument.)

Here's a more fitting improvement: the beginning of Surah al-Isra (17).

Verse: 17:1 Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al- Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs.

Problem: It doesn't make it clear to us today whether prophet Mo (salla walla falla) was taken to Jerusalem in a dream or in reality.

Solution: Add the words 'in reality' (or 'in a dream' (debunker's interpretation)) to make it clear to us reading today.

New verse: Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al- Aqsa in reality/ (or in a dream), whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs.

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Re: A better Quran
Reply #22 - March 17, 2011, 04:10 AM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 14, 2011, 12:08 PM
For example (completely false) the Arabic for 18:86 might be

Before/After
Hatta itha balagha maghriba alshshamsi wajadaha taghrubu fee AAaynin
Hatta itha balagha maghribun alshshamsi wajadaha taghrubu fee AAaynin

I changed maghriba to some fictitious alternative which would mean "A PLACE" rather than "THE PLACE".

LOL who taught you Arabic? Mine is horrible, but the above doesn't sound right...

My idea of "creating a better Koran" is using only Koranic verses and arranging them into a new book in a fashion that would make it more readable, more enjoyable, more fun, making more sense, more acceptable in every other way to most people. Of course, some verses would have to be sacrificed to a hungry goat. It is a project I have been working on and off for about 9 years.

Your idea is interesting as well, but the example sucked.

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #23 - March 17, 2011, 07:43 AM

@ALM
Note the text "completely false"

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Re: A better Quran
Reply #24 - March 17, 2011, 09:15 AM

Quote from: IsLame on March 16, 2011, 11:31 PM
There are many examples of this in the Quran, where the prophet forgets that the Quran was meant to be the words of God, and starts talking as if it’s from himself.

for the sake of a complete thread, here's an example

Quote
Quran 9:30 And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; MAY Allah destroy them

(the word 'may' turns this into a request to Allah, but Allah would not be making a request to himself in a book he wrote, unless he's suffering from a multiple personlity disorder)

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Re: A better Quran
Reply #25 - March 17, 2011, 10:05 AM

Quote from: ateapotist on March 17, 2011, 01:34 AM
^^ Don't lol. TheRationalizer is dead serious about this.

It's a brilliant idea - will contribute when I get a mo.
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #26 - March 17, 2011, 10:49 AM

Rashman, this is bloody brilliant
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #27 - March 17, 2011, 10:59 AM

Hey TR did you see this guys 2nd response to your vid about God (or Gabriel) blowing up Maryam's privates?

He's trying to say that the Qur'an's references are subtle and indirect. Yet I can think of 1001 ways to have phrased this incident in a more subtle and elegant way - if that truly was what the Qur'an wanted to do. Instead it made it look like it's pretty crude. (Though that's just our stupid Kafir twisting lying minds of course )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwbMS2p0Stg
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #28 - March 17, 2011, 11:16 AM

I posted this on the vid:

discussislam 13 hours ago
Nice, but Farj meaning "private parts" is not a modern meaning. Lisan al-Arab (amongst others) gives this meaning - and I quote: الفَرْجُ العَوْرَة

To which he replied:

LearnQuranicArabic 13 hours ago
The word العَوْرَة comes from the root word meaning "shameful". So the fact that this word is associated with الفَرْجُ would indicate that there is allusion to the private parts and not a direct reference as you mistakenly say. had الفَرْجُ meant private parts then there is no need to elaborate.

To which I replied:

discussislam 3 seconds ago
@LearnQuranicArabic - However you phrase it, blowing up Maryam's "whatever" is not subtle. Personally I think it's a mistake & should be و نفخنا فيها i.e. referring to Maryam. This would be more subtle & agree with a similar verse (21:91) وَالَّتِي أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا فَنَفَخْنَا فِيهَا مِنْ رُوحِنَا - The difference is only an alif, & may have been missed out by a scribe at the time when the script had not yet ben standardised. Whatever the case - this verse is not very eloquent imho.
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Re: A better Quran
Reply #29 - March 18, 2011, 05:27 AM

Quote from: Hassan on March 17, 2011, 10:59 AM
Hey TR did you see this guys 2nd response to your vid about God (or Gabriel) blowing up Maryam's privates?

He sounds like an Australian Lebanese Arab
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