Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford

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Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
OP - March 14, 2011, 03:38 PM

http://poddelusion.co.uk/blog/2011/02/23/richard-dawkins-ac-grayling-+discuss-evidence-for-the-supernatural-at-oxford-thinkweek/

Just listening to this, it's quite interesting so I thought I'd share it.

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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #1 - March 15, 2011, 01:07 AM

Yeah, the interview pretty much spells out everything that's wrong with the so-called 'New Atheism.'

Pretty ridiculous when they say that PZ Meyers et al. say that there is nothing that could convince them of the existence of the 'supernatural.' First problem, you can't consciously control what you believe. Second, it just goes to show the completely rigid and obstinate attitude that so many atheists have, which, ironically, they often bitch about the religious for. They themselves are often just as arrogant, self-assured and un-budging in their worldviews.

Also interesting that they say that the existence of God is simply so improbable that any explanation is more likely than a genuine miracle or supernatural event. How do they know that such an event is so unlikely? Or that the existence of God is so unlikely?

But I think it's good that Dawkins says he's genuinely interested in the question of whether a 'supernatural' entity, like God, actually exists. He's right in rejecting the view that Grayling seems to adopt; i.e., that if it can't be known, then the existence of God is an empty hypothesis. It may not be knowable, but there is still a difference between something existing and not existing.
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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #2 - March 15, 2011, 01:13 AM

Quote from: Zebedee on March 15, 2011, 01:07 AM
First problem, you can't consciously control what you believe. Second, it just goes to show the completely rigid and obstinate attitude that so many atheists have, which, ironically, they often bitch about the religious for.

I approve.

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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #3 - March 15, 2011, 01:19 AM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 14, 2011, 03:38 PM
http://poddelusion.co.uk/blog/2011/02/23/richard-dawkins-ac-grayling-+discuss-evidence-for-the-supernatural-at-oxford-thinkweek/

Just listening to this, it's quite interesting so I thought I'd share it.

well put those 5 tubes out in to the forum..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0d9V4hCulE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p4h4DRNzZM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7jh3slC4-4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlghGs0dXQU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gdbcW2QLvw

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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #4 - March 15, 2011, 08:49 AM

@Zebedee

I agree with Grayling. If we cannot possibly know if God exists then it IS an empty hypothesis. If we can never know the answer then the question is completely irrelevant. I always say to theists "If there is an entity powerful enough to create the universe which does not want me to find it, then it may as well not exist because there is no way I would ever be able to find it"

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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #5 - March 15, 2011, 09:11 AM

Thanks for the link bookmarked it and i'll check it out later.

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Lost somewhere between immensity and eternity is our tiny planetary home. [carl sagan]
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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #6 - March 15, 2011, 09:34 AM

Quote from: Zebedee on March 15, 2011, 01:07 AM
But I think it's good that Dawkins says he's genuinely interested in the question of whether a 'supernatural' entity, like God, actually exists. He's right in rejecting the view that Grayling seems to adopt; i.e., that if it can't be known, then the existence of God is an empty hypothesis. It may not be knowable, but there is still a difference between something existing and not existing.

what the point in investigating a proposition(the proposition being 'god exists) whose truth value we already cannot determine(and more importantly, that it can be shown that the truth value cannot be attained)? just because there's a difference between existing and not existing that doesn't entail that it's not an empty hypothesis.
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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #7 - March 15, 2011, 03:59 PM

@Rationalizer

Quote
I agree with Grayling. If we cannot possibly know if God exists then it IS an empty hypothesis.

Hm, maybe. But the way I look it, an assertion that God exists or doesn't is one with truth value, it's true or false. Therefore, if one states that God exists, regardless of whether it can be known or not, that statement will be either true or false, and therefore, I don't believe that the statement is completely empty.

Quote
If we can never know the answer then the question is completely irrelevant.

I don't think so. For example, we may never know what the moral 'good' or 'right' is, but that doesn't mean that the question is entirely irrelevant. It's also worth considering what is meant by 'knowing' something to be the case. If it means that something is known only by logic, reason and physical evidence then it may well be that many things like God's existence are unknowable. Nevertheless, there may be other kinds of knowledge with regards to the existence of God, such as that which the yogis and mystics speak of: an immediate knowledge rather than an empirical one.
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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #8 - March 15, 2011, 04:01 PM

@Zeb

Remember that there is a difference between whether or not god existing is of any benefit, and the hypothesis that an undetectable god exists.

If god exists and we can never know until after we die then it may indeed be beneficial.

If someone presents the hypothesis that something exists (god or not) and the hypothesis can never be proven or disproven then it is worthless.

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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #9 - March 15, 2011, 04:03 PM

@s_c

Quote
what the point in investigating a proposition(the proposition being 'god exists) whose truth value we already cannot determine(and more importantly, that it can be shown that the truth value cannot be attained)? just because there's a difference between existing and not existing that doesn't entail that it's not an empty hypothesis.

Firstly, as I wrote in response to Rationalizer, there may well be different kinds of knowledge with regards to God's existence. It may not be knowable in the empirical sense but that does not preclude other forms of knowledge.

And as for not being able to know whether it is true or not, again, there is the matter of by what means one seeks to know. Is it by empirical inquiry or is it by way of some other method? It may be that the existence of God cannot be decisively known by way of empirical evidence, that does not mean that it cannot be known at all by any method.

And as I said regarding its being an 'empty hypothesis':

Quote
Hm, maybe. But the way I look it, an assertion that God exists or doesn't is one with truth value, it's true or false. Therefore, if one states that God exists, regardless of whether it can be known or not, that statement will be either true or false, and therefore, I don't believe that the statement is completely empty.
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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #10 - March 15, 2011, 04:32 PM

@Rationalizer

Quote
Remember that there is a difference between whether or not god existing is of any benefit, and the hypothesis that an undetectable god exists.

I was under the impression that this was a purely epistemological question, and not about the practical import of knowing that God exists. Of course, there's an obvious difference between God's existence being useful for people and the question of whether God's existence can be known. If you can point to a statement of mine in this thread in which I discuss the benefits of God's existence you can do something I can't.

Quote
If someone presents the hypothesis that something exists (god or not) and the hypothesis can never be proven or disproved then it is worthless.

I don't necessarily think so. It's often the case that people don't know whether or not something can be definitively known when they begin to investigate it. And even if any such investigation doesn't lead to the answer to the central question, that doesn't mean that people can't find and figure out other important things in the process. And as I said, a question like that of morality may well not have a definitive answer(s), but I would certainly not contend that the question of what is good morality is therefore completely redundant.
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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #11 - March 15, 2011, 04:36 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on March 15, 2011, 01:07 AM
Second, it just goes to show the completely rigid and obstinate attitude that so many atheists have, which, ironically, they often bitch about the religious for. They themselves are often just as arrogant, self-assured and un-budging in their worldviews.

I’d just like to point out, though, that apostates, homosexuals and blasphemers are not getting killed by people because an extreme disbelief in God compelled them to kill people.

Extreme thinking alone isn’t a problem. It depends what one is extremely thinking about doing. I’m fine with people being extremely rational, or extremely sceptical, or extremely scientific. What harm do these things do to me?

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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #12 - March 15, 2011, 04:37 PM

Although, saying that, I've sometimes wanted to strangle a theist or two.

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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #13 - March 15, 2011, 04:38 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on March 15, 2011, 04:32 PM
Of course, there's an obvious difference between God's existence being useful for people and the question of whether God's existence can be known.

The point I agree with is that if someone presents you with a hypothesis of something they claim cannot be proven or disproven then it is worthless.

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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #14 - March 15, 2011, 04:43 PM

@Rationalizer

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 15, 2011, 04:38 PM
The point I agree with is that if someone presents you with a hypothesis of something they claim cannot be proven or disproven then it is worthless.

So am I to understand that you mean 'worthless' in the sense of having practical import or benefit?
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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #15 - March 15, 2011, 04:44 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on March 15, 2011, 04:43 PM
@Rationalizer

So am I to understand that you mean 'worthless' in the sense of having practical import or benefit?

I can't think of any use what so ever.

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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #16 - March 15, 2011, 04:47 PM

@Ishina

Quote
Extreme thinking alone isn’t a problem. It depends what one is extremely thinking about doing. I’m fine with people being extremely rational, or extremely sceptical, or extremely scientific. What harm do these things do to me?

I'm suspicious of all extreme modes of thought. Best take a 'middle way.' as the Buddha put it.

Extreme rationality or skepticism or scientism could easily lead to adverse consequences. People may reject morality entirely, become nihilists, start espousing social Darwinist theories, eugenics, etc. Extreme secularism and materialism aren't necessarily harmless.
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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #17 - March 15, 2011, 05:04 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on March 15, 2011, 04:47 PM
Extreme rationality or skepticism or scientism could easily lead to adverse consequences. People may reject morality entirely, become nihilists, start espousing social Darwinist theories, eugenics, etc. Extreme secularism and materialism aren't necessarily harmless.

They are not adverse in essence, though. It depends what you are applying it to. In this case, extreme unbelief in a God - complete rejection of the claim - it is not certain to lead anywhere adverse, except maybe make someone with belief in God feel inadequate in some way.

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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #18 - March 15, 2011, 05:26 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on March 15, 2011, 04:47 PM
@Ishina

I'm suspicious of all extreme modes of thought. Best take a 'middle way.' as the Buddha put it.

Extreme rationality or skepticism or scientism could easily lead to adverse consequences. People may reject morality entirely, become nihilists, start espousing social Darwinist theories, eugenics, etc. Extreme secularism and materialism aren't necessarily harmless.

That is true., I don't really understand the definition of "Extreme skepticism " A skeptic will never go in to extremes. and any fellow who is trained in Science and think about scientific aspects of any given field will be a skeptic however right s/he or the concept may be.

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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #19 - March 15, 2011, 05:30 PM

It might also be worth pointing out that any respectable form of extreme scientism would be extremely open to doubt and extremely open to falsification.

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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #20 - March 15, 2011, 05:51 PM

Quote from: Ishina on March 15, 2011, 05:30 PM
It might also be worth pointing out that 'any respectable form of extreme scientism would be extremely open to doubt and extremely open to falsification."

that is strange statement ., but this word "scientism" is defined as
Quote
the idea that natural science is the most authoritative worldview or aspect of human education, and that it is superior to all other interpretations of life.

That may be true., That scientism and those who follow the scientism must be fully open to criticism, other wise scientism is NOT related to science.

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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #21 - March 15, 2011, 06:05 PM

Well, I've heard 'scientism' defined as many different things, used and abused to describe many different things too. Point is, science by its very nature is mobile, flexible, and changing, and if it isn't falsifiable, then it isn't really worth calling science.

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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #22 - March 15, 2011, 07:41 PM

Bores.
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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #23 - March 15, 2011, 07:54 PM

On a scale of 1 to 10 of how much things concern me, extreme sceptisism isn't registering.

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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #24 - March 15, 2011, 08:09 PM

That is a different proposition to saying that extremism is not the problem in itself. There's no good which cannot be driven to the bounds of lunacy. Bananas are healthy for you, but too much and you will die from pottasium poisoning. Food is nutritious. Too much however will kill.

If you had ever meet a 9/11 Truther you might not think so well of extreme skepticism.
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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #25 - March 15, 2011, 08:25 PM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 15, 2011, 08:09 PM
That is a different proposition to saying that extremism is not the problem in itself.

You are extremely annoying.

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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #26 - March 15, 2011, 08:35 PM

You are extremely sexy. Can I wrap my lips around your nipple?
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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #27 - March 15, 2011, 08:42 PM

That was extremely naughty.

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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #28 - March 15, 2011, 09:02 PM

That was extremely evasive. I can see your nekkid body?
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Re: Richard Dawkins & AC Grayling discuss evidence for the supernatural at Oxford
Reply #29 - March 16, 2011, 06:47 PM

bad sound quality.
someone please update when there are better vids/links available.
thanks.

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