Existing theory of ex-Muslims

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- SuzanneB
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Existing theory of ex-Muslims
OP - March 15, 2011, 09:39 PM

Hi,

Based on Islame's post on a theory about ex-Muslims (which was interesting by the way), I wanted to say that in my research I bumped into an article where such a distinction was made. It is called "Conversion out of Islam: A study of conversion narratives of former Muslims" by Mohammad Hassan Khalil and Mucahit Bilici, written in 2007. I'd gladly post it, but don't know how to attach a pdf-document to the forum? Anyhow, the two main categories of motivation for leaving Islam that they found was (and I quote):

1. The status of women in Islam: Gender issues figure prominently in these narratives, with the status of women in Islam being the most popular intellectual motivation, and Muslim ill-treatment of women a popular social motivation.

2. Muslims as cruel, oppressive and backward: This includes two types of assessments. The first is that, in comparing the behaviors of Muslims and non-Muslims, some converts find the behavior of the latter to be more attractive. The second is that some claim that their conversion owed more to their repulsion by Muslim behavior than to their attraction to positive non-Muslim behavior.

Does this sound familiar at all?

S.

Suzanne
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #1 - March 15, 2011, 09:52 PM

s
- cosmicdancer
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #2 - March 15, 2011, 09:52 PM

Those were not my reasons though I did have a problem with gender issues
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #3 - March 15, 2011, 09:56 PM

Quote from: SuzanneB on March 15, 2011, 09:39 PM
Hi,

Based on Islame's post on a theory about ex-Muslims (which was interesting by the way), I wanted to say that in my research I bumped into an article where such a distinction was made. It is called "Conversion out of Islam: A study of conversion narratives of former Muslims" by Mohammad Hassan Khalil and Mucahit Bilici, written in 2007. I'd gladly post it, but don't know how to attach a pdf-document to the forum?

that is very simple SuzanneB .. just copy the link and paste it in your post.. here is that article

http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/2027.42/72141/1/j.1478-1913.2007.00161.x.pdf

I hope that is the one you are talking..

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #4 - March 15, 2011, 09:56 PM

Quote from: SuzanneB on March 15, 2011, 09:39 PM
"Conversion out of Islam: A study of conversion narratives of former Muslims" by Mohammad Hassan Khalil and Mucahit Bilici, written in 2007. I'd gladly post it, but don't know how to attach a pdf-document to the forum? Anyhow, the two main categories of motivation for leaving Islam that they found was (and I quote):

Can you copy & paste?

Quote from: SuzanneB on March 15, 2011, 09:39 PM
Does this sound familiar at all?

these were powerful reasons, but for me those reasons never stopped it from being true. So what if God was mysogynistic & tyrannical a-hole, if thats what he was, then thats what he was. Philosophical reasons were what sealed the deal for me.

btw what was the sample size of the study? also I wonder if they interviewed mostly converts that apostated, because my guess is 'born into's would have different reasons than 'born again's

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #5 - March 15, 2011, 10:00 PM

@Mount a Bison: You're on to me. Clearly.
@ Yeezevee: that's it indeed, thanks!
@ Islame: Read the article, they answer all of your questions Actually, I believe in more encompassing theories of leaving a religion, but I will discuss those with you in June after my dissertation is finished!

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #6 - March 15, 2011, 10:15 PM

q
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #7 - March 15, 2011, 10:21 PM

Nope, it was as I said it was the through the school window gazing questions that did it for me. I am not talking about Hume or Kant, but just basic questions, the "why would God do this, if he wants this" type.

Although admittedly it was the questions that you raised that gave me the motivation to get to the bottom of the truth, otherwise I might not have cared.

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #8 - March 15, 2011, 10:29 PM

a
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #9 - March 15, 2011, 10:30 PM

Quote from: SuzanneB on March 15, 2011, 10:00 PM
@Mount a Bison: You're on to me. Clearly.
@ Yeezevee: that's it indeed, thanks!
@ Islame: Read the article, they answer all of your questions Actually, I believe in more encompassing theories of leaving a religion, but I will discuss those with you in June after my dissertation is finished!

Its 124pg long!

Anyhow this guy sounds like the perfect candidate for COEM, similar to my reasons

Quote
Jamal is an undergraduate student who would like a career in health care.
Though raised Muslim, Jamal decided to leave Islam a year ago, primarily for
intellectual reasons.

He says, “From everything I read, both pro and antievolutionary
stuff, I arrived at the conclusion that we did evolve through an
unguided process, and there is no place for a God anywhere in it.” The theory
of evolution and the writings of scientists such as Richard Dawkins and Carl
Sagan seem to have had a profound impact on Jamal’s thinking about religion.
He now believes that God is unnecessary for explaining the existence of life.
Speaking in strictly rationalistic and scientific terms, Jamal treats the question
of God as a hypothesis that he believes “is not falsifiable and cannot be taken
seriously.” Moreover, Jamal finds the Qur’an unscientific, the idea of eternal
damnation horrific, and the role of women in Islam deplorable.
Jamal has decided that Islam, like all religions, is simply a cult. His
readings of philosophical works and Ibn Warraq’s book Why I am not a Muslim
have helped him cement his decision.

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #10 - March 15, 2011, 10:33 PM

Haha no it's not 124 p long! It starts at page 111

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #11 - March 15, 2011, 10:34 PM

Quote from: IsLame on March 15, 2011, 10:30 PM
Its 124pg long!

no..no. it is just 14 pages long.. i am reading it..

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #12 - March 15, 2011, 10:38 PM

Mount a Bison: " Yo dude, you want to kick the ball around?"

Islame: " Nah I don't like kicking a ball around"

Mount a Bison: " I see, but did you ponder deeply what it means to not kick a ball around? Because if you haven't then you're being shallow"

Islame " uhhhhh...... I just don't like kicking a ball."

Mount a Bison " Are you sure? Have you studied the great non ball kickers in the world? Their outlook on life? The ontology of not kicking a ball?"

Islame

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #13 - March 15, 2011, 10:46 PM

d
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #14 - March 15, 2011, 10:55 PM

Quote
To reject Islam's theory of the cosmos is to embrace another theory.

No, it's not dialectical, also religion makes far more claims then a simple cosmological one.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #15 - March 15, 2011, 11:03 PM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 15, 2011, 10:29 PM
I'm not saying that you are a braindead pondlife who's never had a dissenting thought about religion. My point is that you did not bring to bear the same forensic scrutiny on your new found philosophy that you did to Islam. Why? Because the new outlook did not incommode you. You found Islam overbearing and looked elsewhere for something a little more convenient. When you found it you did not investigate further. True or false?

False.

I think your phallic obsession has oxygen starved your already limited mental faculties. Read my post again. Then let me know which part you are having problems with.

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #16 - March 15, 2011, 11:13 PM

x
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #17 - March 15, 2011, 11:15 PM

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #18 - March 15, 2011, 11:16 PM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 15, 2011, 11:13 PM
Materialism is the theory of reality to which the godless subscribe. It makes positive claims about the world and how it came to be. You are not simply an empty vase lacking in content. You believe in a number of propositions. You believe that the world came from nothing. You believe that life began as self-replicating molecules formed in the primordial soup triggered by lightening. To reject religion is to substitute it with these hypotheses. Few subject these ideas to the same forensic scrutiny because if they did it might not hold up so well.

What does hold up well, mab? I'd love to know (and I'm being completely serious)

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Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #19 - March 15, 2011, 11:19 PM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 15, 2011, 11:13 PM
Materialism is the theory of reality to which the godless subscribe. It makes positive claims about the world and how it came to be. You are not simply an empty vase lacking in content. You believe in a number of propositions. You believe that the world came from nothing.

I don't believe that.
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #20 - March 15, 2011, 11:33 PM

d
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #21 - March 15, 2011, 11:34 PM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 15, 2011, 11:13 PM
To reject religion is to substitute it with these hypotheses.

Nonsense. One can go through life not giving much of a fuck either way, without any discomfort. And lets not pretend the religions we are talking about even have compelling claims about the origin of everything within their scripture. A few lines of vague text saying "God did it" is an explanation only a child or easily impressed proto-gimp would be satisfied with.

And even if an atheist has positive beliefs about the nature of universe, they are not held hostage by those beliefs. They are not blackmailed into believing them. The beliefs don't have terms and conditions that trickle into their whole lifestyle. Their immortal soul doesn't depend on believing them. They are not under pressure of an eternal suffering that awaits them if they stray from the True Path™.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #22 - March 15, 2011, 11:36 PM

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #23 - March 15, 2011, 11:38 PM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 15, 2011, 11:33 PM
I think materialism is sucessful only against the more primitive varieties of religion. Against a more sophisticated metaphysics it is powerless. How life formed in the deep oceans for onehing t is a hypothesis. The study of biogensis is replete with conjecture, surmise, might-have-beens and could-have-beens. What is probable graduates into what did happen. The standard of evidence commonly required to establish a fact is relaxed. The same is true for the genesis of the cosmos. What is no more than a hypothesis like the multiverse theory is invested with the gravity of established fact. These ideas may or may not be true. What I'm interested in is the boundless credulity of the godless to accept any floating theory than say "I don't know".

I think we can both then agree that materialism is merely a useful approximation of the truth and not the truth itself.
Now where do we go?

At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #24 - March 15, 2011, 11:38 PM

I left Islam, because of logic. The concept of God carries internal contradictions.

Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #25 - March 15, 2011, 11:44 PM

Quote from: Ishina on March 15, 2011, 11:34 PM
Nonsense. One can go through life not giving much of a fuck either way, without any discomfort.

If the truth does not interest a man he is not driven by regard for knowledge. Which is what the bone of contention is.

Quote from: Ishina on March 15, 2011, 11:34 PM
And lets not pretend the religions we are talking about even have compelling claims about the origin of everything within their scripture. A few lines of vague text saying "God did it" is an explanation only a child or easily impressed proto-gimp would be satisfied with.

Religion offers a theory of the world. Materialism offers a competing theory. That is the claim.

Quote from: Ishina on March 15, 2011, 11:34 PM
And even if an atheist has positive beliefs about the nature of universe, they are not held hostage by those beliefs. They are not blackmailed into believing them. The beliefs don't have terms and conditions that trickle into their whole lifestyle. Their immortal soul doesn't depend on believing them. They are not under pressure of an eternal suffering that awaits them if they stray from the True Path™.

I agree with every jot and comma. Thanks for making my case for me.
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #26 - March 15, 2011, 11:51 PM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 15, 2011, 11:36 PM
The prevailing view in theoretical physics is that the universe was made ex nihilo.

Not the impression I get, but still - it is at this moment in time nothing more than an opinion.
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #27 - March 15, 2011, 11:52 PM

And I left Islam because I realised that God was too much like man to be God.
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #28 - March 15, 2011, 11:52 PM

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #29 - March 15, 2011, 11:53 PM

Quote
If the truth does not interest a man he is not driven by regard for knowledge. Which is what the bone of contention is.

No this is what you want it to be. In reality, It was really you bitching out Islame because he didn't get a pholosphy degree before he decided that a poorly written D & D game master's manual wasn't exactly the best guide for life.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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