Existing theory of ex-Muslims

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #30 - March 15, 2011, 11:55 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on March 15, 2011, 11:52 PM
And I left Islam because I realised that God was too much like man to be God.

Maybe man is too much like god to be merely man?

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #31 - March 15, 2011, 11:57 PM

Some men maybe
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #32 - March 15, 2011, 11:58 PM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 15, 2011, 11:44 PM
Thanks for making my case for me.

You make it sound comparable though. I sense a false equivalency between belief in mythology without evidence, and belief in current theories based on rational scepticism - a premise I am allergic to. And also, more often than not, ‘belief’ in modern scientific theories manifests as no more than a casual interest in physics, cosmology or evolution.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #33 - March 15, 2011, 11:59 PM

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #34 - March 16, 2011, 12:02 AM

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #35 - March 16, 2011, 12:11 AM

MAB - I think you are projecting your own superficial reasons for leaving Islam onto me I would never risk eternal damnation for some syphilis-infected $30 street male hooker.

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #36 - March 16, 2011, 12:13 AM

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #37 - March 16, 2011, 12:15 AM

And what do you think those motives are?
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #38 - March 16, 2011, 12:20 AM

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #39 - March 16, 2011, 12:23 AM

Self-reflection me thinks. Others might choose a different method to your 'pick & mix' set of mores.

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #40 - March 16, 2011, 12:23 AM

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #41 - March 16, 2011, 12:29 AM

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #42 - March 16, 2011, 12:32 AM

I dont have an intransigent worldview. I'm agnostic.

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #43 - March 16, 2011, 12:34 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 16, 2011, 12:13 AM
I don't know how to respond to a thing like this. I'm not aware of drawing an equivalence. My claim is that naturalism makes positive clams about the world, a claimed which others deny. It is not simply a lack of a belief. To switch from religion to atheism is to swap one theory of the world for another. And the motives for making that switch, the motive for switching from any outlook to another are not as pure as people claim.

Watch this:

Lack of belief in gods, by QualiaSoup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNDZb0KtJDk

It expresses some of the points I'd like to make with surgical precision.

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #44 - March 16, 2011, 12:35 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 16, 2011, 12:23 AM
To escape what incommodes them and to content their Inner Master.

Like leaving a religion where they are offered eternal bliss and an omnipotent, omniscient, merciful, loving, benevolent god to watch over them for the belief that they are as insignificant as everyone else and that they will grow old and die...? Because that one fucked me up pretty bad.

There isn't a man alive or dead that doesn't argue, most of the time, for what he wants to be true. But sometimes we just accept that something is completely retarded.

And I think you're confused about the nature of belief. You can believe something before anatomising every nook and cranny. I haven't examined every little thing about evolution. But I still genuinely believe it to be true. I have faith.
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #45 - March 16, 2011, 12:38 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 15, 2011, 11:33 PM
I think materialism is sucessful only against the more primitive varieties of religion. Against a more sophisticated metaphysics it is powerless. How life formed in the deep oceans for onehing t is a hypothesis. The study of biogensis is replete with conjecture, surmise, might-have-beens and could-have-beens. What is probable graduates into what did happen. The standard of evidence commonly required to establish a fact is relaxed. The same is true for the genesis of the cosmos. What is no more than a hypothesis like the multiverse theory is invested with the gravity of established fact. These ideas may or may not be true. What I'm interested in is the boundless credulity of the godless to accept any floating theory than say "I don't know".

Thank you for admitting that scientists admit when they are not certain when they do not have sufficient evidence. That, my friend, is not what you can say about the beardos with unshakable imaan and yaqeen.

"Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #46 - March 16, 2011, 12:48 AM

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #47 - March 16, 2011, 01:02 AM

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #48 - March 16, 2011, 01:03 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 16, 2011, 12:48 AM
Never suggested that you are not amenable to reason. I don't even contest the truth of your convictions. They are broadly mine except for sending brutes to the hangman. What I'm driving at is that the process by which men come to believe a thing, the manner by which they go about outfitting themselves with new ideas is not forensic. They develop a sensibility earlier on which informs their method of information gathering. Sensibility is an important word. It is not to be confused with ideas. It's just a general feeling about the world that is content free. That sensibility informs where they get their ideas from, what papers they read, what sites they visit and by slow degrees they stuff their heads with the talking points of their new tribe. That is my observation. And they do not subject those new ideas to interrogation.

@MaB, my sugarplum,
Why do you think there are so many Muslims who don't even think about leaving Islam when surely there are many, many emotional reasons that would drive them to leave Islam? Do you think they all love Islam and all the stupid rules and all its stupid moral values? And do you think they are living happy lives in countries with good socio-economic situations?

By the way, I am not disagreeing with your point. It makes sense apart from this point which I am asking you about.

"Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #49 - March 16, 2011, 01:09 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 16, 2011, 12:48 AM
Never suggested that you are not amenable to reason. I don't even contest the truth of your convictions. They are broadly mine except for sending brutes to the hangman. What I'm driving at is that the process by which men come to believe a thing, the manner by which they go about outfitting themselves with new ideas is not forensic. They develop a sensibility earlier on which informs their method of information gathering. Sensibility is an important word. It is not to be confused with ideas. It's just a general feeling about the world that is content free. That sensibility informs where they get their ideas from, what papers they read, what sites they visit and by slow degrees they stuff their heads with the talking points of their new tribe. That is my observation. And they do not subject those new ideas to interrogation.

Yes selective exposure does happen but the peripheral route to persuasion isn't a holistic explanation for attitudinal change. The central route has the potential to have more of an effect on attitudinal shifts and be longer lasting. Additionally, people's selective exposure can be overcome. Your explanation is one that has merit but not by far a total explanation for why people change their minds.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #50 - March 16, 2011, 01:17 AM

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #51 - March 16, 2011, 01:30 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 15, 2011, 10:15 PM
@Islame

You are a lying pondlife. You and Hassan. Philosophy made the difference? Gimme a break. You deserted Islam because you are a moral latitudinarian. Islam bore down too heavily and you wanted a little latitude from the regimentation.

For what reason did you pursue the whispers of Shaytan except that you liked the whispering? Did you lock yourself in a quiet room for three days and three nights trying to disprove your new found philosophy or apply the same scrutiny to materialism as you did to the high gods? Fiddlesticks! You saw a woman that you liked and ran off with her pretty ankles. Nothing wrong with that. It's what I did. But tell me no lies about philosophy.

@MaB:
I disagree when you use words like 'lies'. It is often difficult to pinpoint the deep psychological reasons why one leaves one worldview for another.

"Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #52 - March 16, 2011, 01:31 AM

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #53 - March 16, 2011, 01:34 AM

Why are you so old, MAB? We've already reached the consensus. You clearly admitted to agree with me on IsLame's thread.

We are motivated by pussy, but fear of jahannam makes us find a convincing comeback (ratiocination u call it, I believe) to rabbul'alameen on the something day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt71NL7GHzk

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #54 - March 16, 2011, 01:36 AM

Quote
Selective exposure does happen? What an interesting phrase. It sounds almost like it's a rare, rare thing. Oh chill it man, it happens so very occasionally. Here, let me pour you some tea.

You miss the point. I maintain that epistemic partisanship, or if you like selectve exposure is the rule. Not the exception. And you think I'm only talking about those mentally benighted Christers. No. I'm speaking of the common run of men, faithful or godless, liberal or conservative, utilitarian or Objectivist. I speak of human motives. Not ideology. John Stuart Mill counseled against this blindness by suggesting in his autobiography that a man who wants to get at the truth should seek to argue both sides of a motion with as much zeal as a partisan. This ideal is seldom met. Not by me. And not, if my observation of people proves correct, by others.

You missed the rest of my post. You are attributing a peripheral theorem of attitudinal change as a large determiner of a person's change in behavior and attitudes. It isn't. The central theorem has validity as well and neither is a complete explanation of why people's beliefs, attitudes, and behaviors change. Like I said your conceptual map has merit, but isn't complete.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
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Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #55 - March 16, 2011, 01:45 AM

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #56 - March 16, 2011, 01:51 AM

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #57 - March 16, 2011, 01:57 AM

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #58 - March 16, 2011, 01:59 AM

You just want to read my posts, don't you dear? Alex is not falling for zis trick. You understand everything and we both know it.

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #59 - March 16, 2011, 02:01 AM

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