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Theme Changer

 Topic: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy

 (Read 37267 times)
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  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #90 - March 18, 2011, 12:50 PM

    Which means you don't really think homeopathy is nonsense.




    How did you figure that?

    Don, I was glad to see that you're using Wikipedia. Keep it up - you may be surprised how little you know about life. Here's one example:

    "However, placebos can also have a surprisingly positive effect on a patient who knows that the given treatment is without any active drug, as compared with a control group who knowingly did not get a placebo."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #91 - March 18, 2011, 12:51 PM

    Homeopathic do not promise to give instant cures for headache and migranes. Homeopathic provide one treatement for many symptoms at one time, but it takes a while for body's immune system to fight that.

    Then what the fuck is the point of homeopathy if all the work is done by your immune system? You might as well not take anything at all and your immune system will be able to fight off most minor diseases anyway. Whereas real medicines have clear beneficial effects. So what's the point of taking homeopathic medicine if all the work is done by your immune system?
  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #92 - March 18, 2011, 12:59 PM

    How did you figure that?

    Because if you really thought homeopathy was nonsense, you wouldn't be taking homeopathic pills to cure your flu.  That's about the 700th time I've had to repeat that to you and spell it out, try to remember this time bro.

    "However, placebos can also have a surprisingly positive effect on a patient who knows that the given treatment is without any active drug, as compared with a control group who knowingly did not get a placebo."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo

    That can't be right. So what its saying is if a person KNOWS that he is being given empty tablets that will have no effect on him, that will have a positive effect in improving his health? Wtf, that makes no sense. I bet this is vandalism/inaccurate/biased source.

    How can my health be improved if I know that I'm getting empty tablets? I can at least understand how theoratically it can have a positive psychological effect if they think its real treatment, but how the fuck can knowing that its not treatment improve anything? That's impossible.
  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #93 - March 18, 2011, 01:01 PM

    Shocking, isn't it? Life is more complicated than it should be.

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #94 - March 18, 2011, 01:07 PM

    Then what the fuck is the point of homeopathy if all the work is done by your immune system? You might as well not take anything at all and your immune system will be able to fight off most minor diseases anyway. Whereas real medicines have clear beneficial effects. So what's the point of taking homeopathic medicine if all the work is done by your immune system?

    It makes immune system stronger.
    Muddy, doctors don't get paid when you buy medicines. They only give you a prescription and you go and buy it from the pharmacy. How do they have a conflict of interest?

    They spend many more years in education, and then they get paid to do the diagnosis, and then they write prescriptions. Many of those are just treatments, not cure. And most of them have no problem telling the patients that they have to take those medications for lifetime, even though if treated naturally, or placebo or homeopathic, the immune system does do much better job then the antibiotics that comes with a many side effects and also destroy immune system against many other diseases.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #95 - March 18, 2011, 01:12 PM

    No they actually do get paid for prescribing medicine. Donnie, what should be in your mind, is quite different from what is.
    The pharmaceutical industry is just as scandalous as the meat industry in US and A.

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #96 - March 18, 2011, 01:26 PM

    It makes immune system stronger.

    It doesn't, as you've said yourself that it can't even cure headaches and flu any faster than if you don't take anything at all.

    They spend many more years in education, and then they get paid to do the diagnosis, and then they write prescriptions. Many of those are just treatements, not cure. And most of them have no problem telling the patients that they have to take those medications for lifetime

    My question was, how do they make money from prescribing you a medicine that you take for all your life? The people who make money when you buy any drugs are the pharmacy companies, not the doctors, hence how do they have a conflict of interest?

    even though if treated naturally, or placebo or homeopathic, the immune system does do much better jobs then these anti-biotics that comes with a lot of side effects and also detroy immune system against many other diseases.

    Yea, and no such evidence of 'better job' from homeopathy has been found despite all the testing done by all the scientists across the world.

    No they actually do get paid for prescribing medicine.

    Sure but do they make money when you buy drugs? Whether you buy 1 tablet or 100, do they benefit from it?

  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #97 - March 18, 2011, 01:32 PM

    It doesn't, as you've said yourself that it can't even cure headaches and flu any faster than if you don't take anything at all.

    Homeopathic is a slow remedy. It kills actual cause through immune system rather than killing the symptoms immediately while underlying cause remains.
    My question was, how do they make money from prescribing you a medicine that you take for all your life? The people who make money when you buy any drugs are the pharmacy companies, not the doctors, hence how do they have a conflict of interest?

    They definitely get paid their commission specially in US. (And that is pretty much the only country that matters in this regard, because most of the pharmaceutical companies operate from here, and drugs cost a lot more here even more then Canada)
    Yea, and no such evidence of 'better job' has been found despite all the testing done by all the scientists across the world.
    Sure but do they make money when you buy drugs? Whether you buy 1 tablet or 100, do they benefit from it?

    I think you do not know much about prescription drug system here. You buy exact amount of tablets that doctor prescribed, not one tablet more, not one less.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #98 - March 18, 2011, 01:33 PM

    Anyways, I am droping this topic now. It is just going on and on for no reason.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #99 - March 18, 2011, 01:36 PM

    Donnie, you bitch about ad hominems, yet your silence now on the issues you've been denying proves that logical fallacies is the only language you understand. I only need to appeal to authority (Wikipedia) and you conveniently switch the subject.

    Why should I bother saying that doctors get paid more when you buy more medicine? Here's a novel idea: examine the foundation of your beliefs once in a while instead of shouting on the forum.

    @muddy
    How can you give up, bro, when someone's wrong on the Internet? Smiley


    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #100 - March 18, 2011, 01:40 PM

    Alex, for now, I am only concentrating my energies on Topics about Islam and Homosexuality. I have strong opinions about other things as well, but I would rather not waste time on those.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #101 - March 18, 2011, 01:48 PM

    Homeopathic is a slow remedy. It kills actual cause through immune system rather than killing the symptoms

    So effectively its results cannot be measured or tested. Just like religion. No one knows what happens after death so its easy to make up a lot of stories about it without needing any evidence.

    They definitely get paid their commission specially in US. (And that is pretty much the only country that matters in this regard, because most of the pharmaceutical companies operate from here, and drugs cost a lot more here even more then Canada)

    Ok, admittedly I haven't been to the U.S and don't know much about the system there, so can't comment.

    your silence now on the issues you've been denying proves that logical fallacies is the only language you understand. I only need to appeal to authority (Wikipedia) and you conveniently switch the subject.

    What issues bro? I've already told you that what you quoted from Wikipedia about 'knowing' that you're getting empty medicine will have a positive effect sounds nonsense. Show me any credible scientific studies or journals that endorse this view and I might be more likely to consider it.

    Here's a novel idea: examine the foundation of your beliefs once in a while instead of shouting on the forum.

    Subhanallah,  lan khush ho gaya.
  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #102 - March 18, 2011, 03:00 PM

    Sorry, I do not accept any analysis done by MD doctors and pharmacists. They have conflict of interest.

    Muddy, I had my reservations about you, but turns out, you're a complete moron. You haven't even looked at the data I have provided you. If you look at the papers, the methods they've used are outlined, if you don't trust the doctors you can do the tests yourself.

    Homeopathic do not promise to give instant cures for headache and migranes. Homeopathic provide one treatement for many symptoms at one time, but it takes a while for body's immune system to fight that.I can agree about Arnica doing placebo work.

    You have no idea what you're talking about, do you? Has homoeopathy positively cured anything in lab conditions?

    It makes immune system stronger

    Again, where is your evidence for that claim? It looks like you don't even know how the immune system works.

    They spend many more years in education, and then they get paid to do the diagnosis, and then they write prescriptions. Many of those are just treatments, not cure. And most of them have no problem telling the patients that they have to take those medications for lifetime, even though if treated naturally, or placebo or homeopathic, the immune system does do much better job then the antibiotics that comes with a many side effects and also destroy immune system against many other diseases.


    What is the difference between a treatment and a cure? Do you think there's actually a magic pill that you can take which will cure you within seconds? And yes, of course doctors have no problem telling their patients that they have to take those medicines because doctors, unlike homoeopaths, have to be truthful with their patients. What natural cure works better than penicillin? The placebo effect is not known to cure infections, nor is homoeopathy. Oh and you do know that antibiotics come from natural sources, right? They just extract the active ingredient from the natural sources and put them in the pills in sufficient amounts. And yes, they do have side-effects, you know why....because they actually work! Somebody give Muddy a Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus infection, and a box of chocolates...no, homoeopathic medicines, let's see how he does without the antibiotics.

    Homeopathic is a slow remedy. It kills actual cause through immune system rather than killing the symptoms immediately while underlying cause remains.They definitely get paid their commission specially in US. (And that is pretty much the only country that matters in this regard, because most of the pharmaceutical companies operate from here, and drugs cost a lot more here even more then Canada)I think you do not know much about prescription drug system here. You buy exact amount of tablets that doctor prescribed, not one tablet more, not one less.

    Again, you have no idea what you're talking about. Do you have any evidence to back that claim up? Do you have evidence to back any of your claims? Yes, you don't get more or less pills because you need a certain amount of them to work and you can't have more than that amount because you'll likely end up having an overdose, that's why you're not allowed to have more. Cos you know, I think doctors learn something when they're at school.

    Muddy, I suggest that you learn the subject matter first before you form your opinions. Really, man...

  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #103 - March 18, 2011, 03:06 PM

    I know, it had worked for me and my family. That is all that matters to me. I am not advocating everyone to start using it as valid treatment, but I do not tolerate someone bashing it.
    Anyways, I have dropped this topic, so I would not continue further debate.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #104 - March 18, 2011, 03:21 PM

    I know, it had worked for me and my family. That is all that matters to me. I am not advocating everyone to start using it as valid treatment, but I do not tolerate someone bashing it.
    Anyways, I have dropped this topic, so I would not continue further debate.

    You do realise that's a logical fallacy, right? I will continue to bash homoeopathy and other stupid claims and the fools who follow it. I provided the evidence you asked for, whereas you haven't provided anything other than empty assertions, ignorance and logical fallacies. You're running away because you have no way to defend your claims because they are false. You have no evidence to support your claims. Now, run along like a sissy. KTHXBAI!
  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #105 - March 18, 2011, 03:23 PM

    Muddy, what disease did it work for? Does it work consistently or sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't?

    There are a number of reasons why sometimes your minor ailments go away faster, and if that happens while you were taking homeopathic pills, you would give those pills the credit for it. Its just like prayer, people disregard it when their prayers aren't answered, but credit prayers for anything good that happens to them.
  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #106 - March 18, 2011, 03:25 PM

    I have mentioned many times Calendula works 100% of the time for cuts and wounds, much faster then any other. You have to try it to know.
    I did tell you why I did not accept the first two links you provided.
    If you think I am fool, you are entitled to your opinion. I wouldn't care less.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #107 - March 18, 2011, 03:29 PM

    Muddy - in what universe does Calendula qualify as homeopathy?  Calendula does of course work - it works along all the same biochemical lines as any conventional medicine, as do many herbal remedies.  Herbal medicine is about the only branch of alternative medicine which has any validity to its claims.

    Homeopathy is water.  Its based on the kooky notion that water has a memory, and is complete bollocks.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #108 - March 18, 2011, 03:32 PM

    Muddy, what disease did it work for? Does it work consistently or sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't?

    There are a number of reasons why sometimes your minor ailments go away faster, and if that happens while you were taking homeopathic pills, you would give those pills the credit for it. It's just like prayer, people disregard it when their prayers aren't answered, but credit prayers for anything good that happens to them.

    Me and my brother once had jaundice. He took antibiotics, I took homeopathic treatment only. His immune system is quiet fucked up because of that, mine was perfect until two years ago until I actually had to take strong antibiotics after I contracted something at hajj.
    I had a cousin whose parents give her antibiotics when she was little, she had many side effects, developed ear infection and completely lost her hearing, and then later died. All thanks to antibiotics.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #109 - March 18, 2011, 03:33 PM

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendula#Medicinal_effects

    Quote
    Calendula is a genus of about 12–20 species of annual or perennial herbaceous plants in the daisy family......

    Plant pharmacological studies have suggested that Calendula extracts have anti-viral, anti-genotoxic and anti-inflammatory properties.[4] Calendula in suspension or in tincture is used topically to treat acne, reducing inflammation, controlling bleeding and soothing irritated tissue.[5][6] There is "limited evidence" that calendula cream or ointment is effective in treating radiation dermatitis.[7][8] In a randomized study of 254 radiation patients, topical application of 4% calendula ointment resulted in far fewer occurrences of Grade 2 or higher dermatitis than occurred in the group using trolamine. Calendula users also experienced less radiation-induced pain and fewer breaks in treatment.


    In other words, this is not something specific to homeopathy. That plant has got healing properties in itself. You can't give homeopathy credit for the natural healing properties of a plant.
  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #110 - March 18, 2011, 03:36 PM

    Me and my brother once had jaundice. He took antibiotics, I took homeopathic treatment only. His immune system is quiet fucked up because of that, mine was perfect until two years ago until I actually had to take strong antibiotics after I contracted something at hajj.
    I had a cousin whose parents give her antibiotics when she was little, she had many side effects, developed ear infection and completely lost her hearing, and then later died. All thanks to antibiotics.


    What do you think antibiotics actually are?  They are naturally occuring substances with anti-bacterial properties - very similar to calendula, in fact.  Only calendula has anti-viral properties instead.  Following your own logic, you'd better beware of that calendula, you might go deaf and die.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #111 - March 18, 2011, 03:37 PM

    Me and my brother once had jaundice. He took antibiotics, I took homeopathic treatment only. His immune system is quiet fucked up because of that

    1) So whose jaundice was cured first
    2) How do you know his immune system is fucked up
    3) And how do you know it was fucked up because of the anti biotics? I've been taking anti biotics all my life and my immune system is just fine.

    , mine was perfect until two years ago until I actually had to take strong antibiotics after I contracted something at hajj.

    4) How do you know it was anti biotics that fucked it up?

    I had a cousin whose parents give her antibiotics when she was little, she had many side effects, developed ear infection and completely lost her hearing, and then later died. All thanks to antibiotics.

    6) How do you know it wasn't the result of a doctor who didn't know what he was doing (quite common in Pakistan) or faulty drugs (quite common in Pakistan), or there being some rare complication/allergy in your cousin because of which she had that side affect? A vast majority of the population is just fine after taking anti biotics.
  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #112 - March 18, 2011, 04:21 PM

    What do you think antibiotics actually are?  They are naturally occuring substances with anti-bacterial properties - very similar to calendula, in fact.  Only calendula has anti-viral properties instead.  Following your own logic, you'd better beware of that calendula, you might go deaf and die.

    Calendula don't kill good bactarias.. Many antibiotics do.
    Also it is a homeopathic remedy. Don't take its credit away and give to some other team.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #113 - March 18, 2011, 04:30 PM

    1) So whose jaundice was cured first

    I don't remember the details, it was 20 years ago, but it took about same amount of time.
    2) How do you know his immune system is fucked up

    We talk, and figure out how many things are taken care of my immune system vs his.
    3) And how do you know it was fucked up because of the anti biotics? I've been taking anti biotics all my life and my immune system is just fine.

    Good for you.
    4) How do you know it was anti biotics that fucked it up?

    General observation about what had been different in our lives.
    6) How do you know it wasn't the result of a doctor who didn't know what he was doing (quite common in Pakistan) or faulty drugs (quite common in Pakistan), or there being some rare complication/allergy in your cousin because of which she had that side affect? A vast majority of the population is just fine after taking anti biotics.

    In regular medical process, it is very common to have wrong diagnosis and treat for it, which can go terribly wrong at times. In homeopathic, the drug dose is very light. Even with wrong diagnosis, it won't hurt a thing.
    Yes, there are many cases where you do need to go to doctor to immediately solve issues, which homeopathic can't do, but certainly taking strong prescriptions for minor things that can be resolved by immune system, and bashing homeopathic, is quiet insane.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #114 - March 18, 2011, 04:53 PM


  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #115 - March 18, 2011, 05:42 PM

    Calendula don't kill good bactarias.. Many antibiotics do.
    Also it is a homeopathic remedy. Don't take its credit away and give to some other team.

    They are not saying that Calendula is not part of homeopathic remedies.
    They are saying that Calendula and many other herbal remedies are part of "conventional medicine" since they get studied, tested and their effects verified, and such extracts are used to directly counteracts afflictions or their symptoms (which is not what homeopathy is about).

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #116 - March 18, 2011, 05:44 PM

    Herbal remidies are not the same as HOMEOPATHY MUDDY... Cheetah explained it very well... When i was young I had Chronic Bronchitis, which meant that i would get a lung infection every 3 months, and had to take up to 10 double penicillin shots to treat the infection..

    After a few years of having that problem a doctor prescribed me a medicine that consisted of BRANDY,HONEY AND GARLIC... My mom had to mix that, leave it a couple of days, and then give it to me 2 soup spoons a day. In addition to that, I had to eat garlic with every meal and every piece of bread i ate, amounting to one garlic head a day. After this treatment I HAD NO MORE CHRONIC BRONCHITIS.....

    Now the 1 million dollar question.... DOES MY TREATMENT ACCOUNT AS A HOMEOPATHIC TREATMENT?Huh? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO....

    Honey and Garlic particular are well known natural remedies that help humans in many ways, with garlic being a natural antibiotic.... Brandy worked its part as an anti-bacterial fluid...

    Homeopathic pills in the other hand have most of the time NO ACTIVE INGREDIENTS.. They are placebo... The dilution rates used to create such "medicine" are comparable to 1 molecule of "active ingredient" in water the size of JUPITER.

    Just look at the sun and the moon, rotating around the earth perfectly! Out of all the never ending space in the universe, the sun and moon ended up close to earth rotating around it perfectly.!!

  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #117 - March 18, 2011, 05:51 PM

    Don't over-exeggerate dude. Anyways, I am only against homeopathy bashing that is happening in this thread which is totally uncalled for.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #118 - March 18, 2011, 06:06 PM

    I know, it had worked for me and my family. That is all that matters to me. I am not advocating everyone to start using it as valid treatment, but I do not tolerate someone bashing it.

    Yes, there are many cases where you do need to go to doctor to immediately solve issues, which homeopathic can't do, but certainly taking strong prescriptions for minor things that can be resolved by immune system, and bashing homeopathic, is quiet insane.

    Homeopathy, like any idea, including Islam, can and should be questioned.  Homeopathy does not stand up to scientific scrutiny which is why it is bashed so much.  It performs no better than placebo.  And I for one definitely don't want any state money spent on that water.  I get water through the tap at home. Muslims who drink zamzam probably feel healed in the same way.


    Calendula don't kill good bactarias.. Many antibiotics do.

    Evidence please?

    Also it is a homeopathic remedy. Don't take its credit away and give to some other team.

    No muddy, Calendula is not a homeopathic medicine.  Here's the definition of homeopathy:
    Quote
    Homeopathy is a form of alternative medicine in which practitioners treat patients using highly diluted preparations that are believed to cause healthy people to exhibit symptoms that are similar to those exhibited by the patient.


    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Pascal's Wager and homeopathy
     Reply #119 - March 18, 2011, 06:51 PM

    Homeopathy, like any idea, including Islam, can and should be questioned.  Homeopathy does not stand up to scientific scrutiny which is why it is bashed so much.  It performs no better than placebo.  And I for one definitely don't want any state money spent on that water.  I get water through the tap at home. Muslims who drink zamzam probably feel healed in the same way.

    I got healed by homeopathy but never by zamzam. Also homeopathy don't ask you to bow down, nor does it constantly threaten you.
    Evidence please?

    Again, personal experience. Also it is antiseptic.
    No muddy, Calendula is not a homeopathic medicine.  Here's the definition of homeopathy:

    Do you find it in any store which doesn't sell homeopathic? (occasional exception doesn't count which I doubt there are any)

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
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