I have a debate this Sunday

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- Prince Spinoza
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #60 - March 22, 2011, 05:32 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 22, 2011, 05:30 PM
@debunker
The question is, *can* this be known. The answer is "Yes". Anyone with access to the skeletal remains of a human could have counted the bones if they felt so inclined. It only takes one person in history to be morbid enough to do such a thing and the morbid fascination of the fact could have made it popular information to pass on.

Now, could Muhammad have known that stars collapse to form black holes? No, and that's exactly why the Quran & Hadiths don't claim he did.

A quick google suggests 206 bones in an adult body, and between 300-350 in an infant's body. Even if the number were 360-370 it would be a crap miracle because there aren't exactly 360 bones - it would only be approximately correct.

Joints, not bones. It comes to the same though.
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #61 - March 22, 2011, 05:34 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on March 22, 2011, 05:32 PM
Joints, not bones. It comes to the same though.

If there are 350 bones, there won't be 360 joints

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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #62 - March 22, 2011, 05:35 PM

There could be, but nice save anyway
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #63 - March 22, 2011, 05:38 PM

I think I remember some Jewish adage to the effect that there are (about) 360 laws in the Torah, just as there are 360 joints/bones in the body. Could well be some old Semitic maxim.
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #64 - March 22, 2011, 05:41 PM

Quote
I think I remember some Jewish adage to the effect that there are (about) 360 laws in the Torah, just as there are 360 joints/bones in the body. Could well be some old Semitic maxim.

Please, please Zebeedee, investigate this further! How i would love to shut them up!

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #65 - March 22, 2011, 05:42 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on March 22, 2011, 05:32 PM
As far as I know the '360 joints' idea pre-dates Islam, and I doubt you'd find a doctor who would actually claim there were 360 joints in the body, mostly because it's not clear-cut what exactly constitutes a joint.

links? please?

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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #66 - March 22, 2011, 05:44 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on March 22, 2011, 05:35 PM
There could be, but nice save anyway

Yes

I did actually read it correctly, but then wondered if there were enough bones to cover that many joints and by the time I had reached my conclusion I was in the "bones" context

@Debunker
A good start might be to get them to quote a medical source which says there actually are 360 joints.

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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #67 - March 22, 2011, 05:49 PM

http://www.iop.or.jp/0111/special.pdf

That's one source (p.47), there are others I believe.
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #68 - March 22, 2011, 05:51 PM

Chinese medicine apparently taught that we had 360 joints in our bodies
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~nsivin/comp.html

Importantly though, ask for
1: The hadith which says we have 360 joints so that you can read it in Arabic and see what it actually says.
2: The medical evidence supporting 360 joints.

Let's start there

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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #69 - March 22, 2011, 05:59 PM

Hm. Yeah, it's to do with Jewish religious law, but I'm not entirely sure when the idea was formulated. It mentions the medieval era scholar Maimonides, but I'm not sure exactly if it predates him or not, or what details he added to it or is responsible for:

Quote
There are 365 negative commandments, corresponding to the number of days in a solar year, and 248 positive commandments, ascribed to the number of bones and significant organs in the human body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_Mitzvot
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #70 - March 22, 2011, 06:03 PM

I also found the reference in the footnotes pertinent:

This idea comes from the Talmud, apparently:

Quote
There is also complete agreement that these 613 mitzvot can be broken down into 248 positive mitzvot (one for each bone and organ of the male body) and 365 negative mitzvot (one for each day of the solar year).

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/mitzvot.html

Doesn't necessarily refute the hadith thing, but it's interesting all the same.
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #71 - March 22, 2011, 06:12 PM

@ Prince

Thanks a million for this info!

Quote
Ji: Under Emperor Wu of the Han dynasty, Confucianism was adopted
as the official creed of the state. The most influential Confucian thinker
of the time was Dong Zhongshu (195?–105? BCE), who in his writings
argued clearly and forcefully for the view that Heaven and human
beings combine to form a single entity.
In his Chunqiu fanlu or Luxuriant Gems of the Spring and Autumn
Annals, in the section entitled “How human Beings Second the Numbers
of Heaven,” he states: “Human beings have 360 joints because this
exactly matches the number of Heaven’s [days]. Their bodies, their
bones and flesh, match the thickness of the earth. Their ears and eyes
are bright and keen like the qualities of the sun and moon, and in their
bodies there are hollows and veins like the configurations of the rivers
and valleys.”

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #72 - March 22, 2011, 06:15 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 22, 2011, 05:51 PM
Chinese medicine apparently taught that we had 360 joints in our bodies
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~nsivin/comp.html

Importantly though, ask for
1: The hadith which says we have 360 joints so that you can read it in Arabic and see what it actually says.
2: The medical evidence supporting 360 joints.

Let's start there

i read it in Arabic, and it does say joints.

as for #2, i was kind of hoping you'd investigate this for us, but after Prince's source, there's no need... it's clearly an ancient belief/philosophy/pseudoscience older than the time of the prophet.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #73 - March 22, 2011, 06:17 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on March 22, 2011, 06:03 PM
I also found the reference in the footnotes pertinent:

This idea comes from the Talmud, apparently:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/mitzvot.html

Doesn't necessarily refute the hadith thing, but it's interesting all the same.

thanks a lot Zebebdee.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #74 - March 22, 2011, 06:24 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 22, 2011, 05:51 PM
Chinese medicine apparently taught that we had 360 joints in our bodies
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~nsivin/comp.html

oh and i missed your source! thanks!

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #75 - March 22, 2011, 06:42 PM

It's a fucking shit miracle even if it were one. If the best god could do was to tell me how many joints I have I'd just laugh at him

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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #76 - March 22, 2011, 06:56 PM

well, that's subjective.... some people want God to give them no option but to believe, others are begging for a few signs here and there.

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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #77 - March 22, 2011, 09:00 PM

Just finished watching random bits of the video, which I enjoyed thoroughly - you came across as knowing far more about Islam than them, and I think they began to realise it - would make for great 5minute highlights if you ever get round to it.

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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #78 - March 22, 2011, 09:01 PM

Quote from: debunker on March 22, 2011, 06:56 PM
well, that's subjective.... some people want God to give them no option but to believe, others are begging for a few signs here and there.

Yeah, but the "signs" I see in Islam are on par with the coincidentally accurate statements in man made religions....but I don't need to tell you that

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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #79 - March 22, 2011, 09:03 PM

Quote from: IsLame on March 22, 2011, 09:00 PM
Just finished watching random bits of the video, which I enjoyed thoroughly - you came across as knowing far more about Islam than them, and I think they began to realise it - would make for great 5minute highlights if you ever get round to it.

I loved the bit where they laughed because I told them the Arabic word lamusiuna before they could find it, made me chuckle inside

I'm really pissed off that I said light travels 299792458 km/hour, and then corrected myself as 299792458 km/sec....and it's fucking metres per second!

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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #80 - March 22, 2011, 10:42 PM

Just watched some of the discussion and its like you're shooting fish in a barrel. He's not just several rungs under the ladder from you, he's comatose on the floor by comparison.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #81 - March 22, 2011, 10:51 PM

Seemed like nice lads. Just a bit gullible.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #82 - March 22, 2011, 11:14 PM

LoLz when he turns the camera around to show you the white converts, expecting you to be impressed, or to feel some kind of ethnic affinity with them.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #83 - March 22, 2011, 11:18 PM

That other guy in the blue is so annyoing, and I hate his laugh! there is no hope for him.

Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #84 - March 22, 2011, 11:53 PM

Its actually kind of funny towards the end, they look exhausted and steam-rollered and stressed out

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #85 - March 23, 2011, 01:28 AM

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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #86 - March 23, 2011, 01:35 AM

^ TheRationalizer is the cool hyper-rational dude. Here's his YouTube video about this chat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTy3BN9KGVM&feature=channel_video_title

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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #87 - March 23, 2011, 02:30 AM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 22, 2011, 03:04 PM
@yeezevee
I was being facetious

In Soviet Russia TheRationalizer is facetious towards yeezevee.

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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #88 - March 23, 2011, 02:50 AM

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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #89 - March 23, 2011, 03:48 AM

what nationality is TR? He sounds Australian, does he not?

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