I have a debate this Sunday

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- TheRationalizer
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #30 - March 22, 2011, 12:34 PM

http://therationalizer.blip.tv/

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- serrated_colon
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #31 - March 22, 2011, 02:27 PM

i'm at the clay part. clay is mostly ammonium silicate plus a couple of surrounding minerals. so it's made of oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen and oxygen. those are four elements that occur in the body, but it's missing out potassium, chlorine, sodium(btw; the potassium-sodium pump in neurones is very important for creating action potentials which help transmit information across synapses in nerves - it's a bit weird the qur'an missed such an important part out) and iron(which is mentioned somewhere else but that's not the claim).

so basically their claim about clay is bullshit
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #32 - March 22, 2011, 02:29 PM

Made from clay is just from the bible anyway I think so I didn't bother addressing it

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- Kenan
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #33 - March 22, 2011, 02:36 PM

Sad, that's all I can say. Do you happen to have any background info on these guys as far as their education is concerned?
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #34 - March 22, 2011, 02:42 PM

I know nothing about them at all. It was supposed to be just Tasneef and myself to start with, then he asked if he could bring his friend (Ayaz who did the main talking) and then it turned out that they also brought "two white Muslims".

Obviously if I had known white people could be Muslims I'd have become one

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- serrated_colon
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #35 - March 22, 2011, 02:55 PM

just on the sky canopy thing:
GENESIS 1:6-7

there's the quote you woulda wanted to shut them up
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #36 - March 22, 2011, 02:56 PM

That's what I had in mind, but it's a firmament/barrier. It's not really saying that the sky itself is a canopy.

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- serrated_colon
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #37 - March 22, 2011, 02:58 PM

the qur'an describes the sky as a firmament at 51:47, so i don't think you'd have had problems there.
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #38 - March 22, 2011, 03:00 PM

51:47 says - We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof)

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- yeezevee
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #39 - March 22, 2011, 03:02 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 22, 2011, 02:42 PM
I know nothing about them at all. It was supposed to be just Tasneef and myself to start with, then he asked if he could bring his friend (Ayaz who did the main talking) and then it turned out that they also brought "two white Muslims".

Obviously if I had known white people could be Muslims I'd have become one

what?? you didn't know white people could be Muslims TheRationalizer ? I don't believe that.. But what you should done is , the moment you know that his friend is white Muslim convert, you should have said these words

Quote
Lā ʾilāha ʾillallāh, Muḥammad rasūlu-llāh

and put a towel on your head and act like real dawah muslim and start reading Quran along with them ..lol..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #40 - March 22, 2011, 03:04 PM

@yeezevee
I was being facetious He obviously thought that having white Muslims there gave his religion credibility. However, ever village has its idiots

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- zomzom
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #41 - March 22, 2011, 03:06 PM

This guy will be a massive fail, Haronn Yahya!

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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #42 - March 22, 2011, 03:07 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 22, 2011, 03:00 PM
51:47 says - We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof)

check out a couple of other translations. i'm not at home and can't check my copies but i'm pretty sure it does in one of them

btw: skype me next time you talk to these guys. i'll probs be bored and around.
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #43 - March 22, 2011, 03:11 PM

You know, that guy sounds like he is in the mosque, and they are signing naats.

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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #44 - March 22, 2011, 03:16 PM

@KingTut, that's where they wanted me to meet them. TheRationalizer, in a mosque.....danger danger!

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- Elifaz
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #45 - March 22, 2011, 03:23 PM

These guys are idiots TR... I admire your patience.

"Yeah... innit... yeahhhh... *stupid grin*"

Thanks Keith Moore.
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #46 - March 22, 2011, 03:41 PM

@ TR

I watched random bits of the video (i was too annoyed by the background noise). anyway, he made a very stupid point regarding "smokeless" fire, he asked when was it known there is such a thing as a smokeless fire, the answer is fucking obvious!

Since the word Lahab is already in the Arabic language (Lahab = flame), then it's been already known since at least the 7th century there is a smokeless fire, otherwise it wouldn't be among the vocabulary of the Arabic language. And by the way, that word (Lahab) was used as the nickname of the prophet's uncle, who was known by Meccans for his bad temper, and thus they called him *Abu Lahab*. So the word existed in ancient Arabic vocabulary, which means that either Arabs knew there was smokless fire OR:

Lahab simply means *flame*. The translators (or whoever) made the distinction *smokeless fire* just to emphasize that it was purely made of *flame* and nothing else.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #47 - March 22, 2011, 03:49 PM

EDIT: In other words, if this idiot wanted to claim, yet another "scientific miracle", for the Quranic use of the Arabic word *Lahab*, then the Ancient Meccans/Arabs should take the credit for this miracle!

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #48 - March 22, 2011, 03:50 PM

@Debunker
I didn't know that, thanks for the info!

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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #49 - March 22, 2011, 03:55 PM

This boy has zero free-thinking capacity. Every time he is asked to think for himself he starts squirming and looking around for help.

How did Muhammad know where Valley of the Kings was?
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #50 - March 22, 2011, 04:07 PM

@ TR

wait, I confused two words, it's not Lahab, it's Marij, but the point still stands, since it's part of ancient arabic vocabulary, then ancient Arabs should take the credit.

and Marij simply means pure fire, or the essence of fire or the flame itself.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #51 - March 22, 2011, 04:13 PM

The Rationalizer + serrated_colon + debunker vs them guys. I would pay to see that. Imagine debunker saying to them something along the lines of "I am a Muslim from KSA and imo claims that there are scientific miracles in Quran is a load of bollocks." Imagine the look on their faces and what their reaction would be.
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #52 - March 22, 2011, 04:17 PM

Quote
The Rationalizer + serrated_colon + debunker vs them guys. I would pay to see that. Imagine debunker saying to them something along the lines of "I am a Muslim from KSA and imo claims that there are scientific miracles in Quran is a load of bollocks." Imagine the look on their faces and what their reaction would be.

people here accuse me of *hating* the Quran for denying these "miracles".

EDIT: here = KSA.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #53 - March 22, 2011, 04:23 PM

@debunker
You have a choice between

A: There are no miracles, and
B: There are miracles, but they are shit

I think you are just honest. Frankly, if I were god, I'd slap you on the back and say "Thanks for not associating me with that shit stuff".

One day perhaps you will explain to me what actually does make you believe one book without proof over another

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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #54 - March 22, 2011, 05:16 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 22, 2011, 02:56 PM
That's what I had in mind, but it's a firmament/barrier. It's not really saying that the sky itself is a canopy.

I think this verse does:

[52:5]
and the roof uplifted
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #55 - March 22, 2011, 05:21 PM

Did anyone catch the name of the "guy who debates atheists" that he wanted me to talk to? I can't make it out.

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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #56 - March 22, 2011, 05:23 PM

What time?
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #57 - March 22, 2011, 05:25 PM

@ TR

btw, there's a claim of a Hadith scientific miracle. The Hadith says there are 360 joints in a man's body, and the scientific miracles crowd claim that this is indeed verified by medicine.

when i'm confronted with these claims, i can't comment because:

1- I don't know whether there are indeed 360 in the human body.
2- whether this was already common ancient knowledge.

So could you please investigate these 2 points above?

The Hadith:
"Aisha reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Every one of the children of Adam has been created with three hundred and sixty joints; so he who declares the Glory of Allah, praises Allah, declares Allah to be One, Glorifies Allah, and seeks forgiveness from Allah, and removes stone, or thorn, or bone from people's path, and enjoins what is good and forbids from evil, to the number of those three hundred and sixty-four, will walk that day having removed himself from Hell. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Zakat (Kitab Al-Zakat), Book 005, Number 2199)"

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #58 - March 22, 2011, 05:30 PM

@debunker
The question is, *can* this be known. The answer is "Yes". Anyone with access to the skeletal remains of a human could have counted the bones if they felt so inclined. It only takes one person in history to be morbid enough to do such a thing and the morbid fascination of the fact could have made it popular information to pass on.

Now, could Muhammad have known that stars collapse to form black holes? No, and that's exactly why the Quran & Hadiths don't claim he did.

A quick google suggests 206 bones in an adult body, and between 300-350 in an infant's body. Even if the number were 360-370 it would be a crap miracle because there aren't exactly 360 bones - it would only be approximately correct.

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Re: I have a debate this Sunday
Reply #59 - March 22, 2011, 05:32 PM

As far as I know the '360 joints' idea pre-dates Islam, and I doubt you'd find a doctor who would actually claim there were 360 joints in the body, mostly because it's not clear-cut what exactly constitutes a joint.
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