So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??

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So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
OP - March 18, 2011, 12:24 PM

Fukushima Daiichi_ So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
http://www.dawn.com/2011/03/18/nuclear-plants-losing-appeal.html

Quote
IN Germany, tens of thousands of protesters demonstrated against nuclear power last Saturday, and Chancellor Angela Merkel suspended her policy of extending the life of the country’s nuclear power stations until 2036. She conceded that, following events in Japan, it was not possible to “go back to business as usual”, meaning that she may return to the original plan to close down all 17 of Germany’s nuclear power plants by 2020.

Quote
In Britain, energy secretary Chris Huhne took a more measured approach: “As Europe seeks to remove carbon based fuels from its economy, there is a long-term debate about finding the right mix between nuclear energy and energy generated from renewable sources…. The events of the last few days haven’t done the nuclear industry any favours.” I wouldn’t invest in the promised new generation of nuclear power plants in Britain either.

Quote
And in the United States, Congressmen Henry Waxman and Ed Markey (Democratic), who co-sponsored the 2009 climate bill, called for hearings into the safety and preparedness of America’s nuclear plants, 23 of which have similar designs to the stricken Fukushima Daiichi plant in Japan.

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"We Will not Allow a Nuclear Power Plant in Akkuyu"

http://www.bianet.org/english/environment/128671-we-will-not-allow-a-nuclear-power-plant-in-akkuyu

The politicians and contractors are on their way to Akkuyu with shovels in their hand. Let us say 'stop' to their enthusiasm about nuclear reactors" - this was the theme of a joint statement against the construction of nuclear power plants issued by the Istanbul Environmental Engineers' Chamber (ÇMO) as part of the Turkey Union of Chambers of Architects and Engineers (TMMOB) and the Istanbul Medical Chamber (İTO) belonging to the Turkish Medical Association (TBB).

"Let us stop the Grave Diggers" is the title of the announcement.

Quote
Netanyahu: Israel 'rethinking' nuclear power plant in Negev
[/b][/u]
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/netanyahu-israel-rethinking-nuclear-power-plant-in-negev-1.349895

The unfolding crisis at Japan's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear reactor has caused Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to rethink a decision to set up a nuclear power plant in the Negev, which he had made just a few months ago. He announced the turnabout in an interview with CNN that aired yesterday.

"It certainly caused me to reconsider the projects of building civil nuclear power plants," he said, referring to the situation in Japan. "I have to tell you, I was a lot more enthusiastic about it than I am now."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99EbhO3gPvk

Good video to watch

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Re: So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
Reply #1 - March 18, 2011, 01:06 PM

I like how the fact that 30+ year old nuclear reactors not standing a super earthquake and a super tsunami makes people suddenly scared of nuclear energy.
Especially if you consider that that same quake+tsunami has already killed way more people than the nuclear accident will ever do.

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Re: So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
Reply #2 - March 18, 2011, 01:15 PM

^ Tlaloc, because you're lucky once doesn't mean you are always going to be lucky.

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Re: So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
Reply #3 - March 18, 2011, 04:18 PM

Number of deaths related to each of the main sources of energy worldwide - coal, oil, natural gas, nuclear, hydro and biomass: http://www-958.ibm.com/software/data/cognos/manyeyes/visualizations/2e5d4dcc4fb511e0ae0c000255111976/

coal: 161 deaths/TWh

oil: 36 deaths/TWh

nuclear: 0.04 deaths/TWh

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Re: So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
Reply #4 - March 18, 2011, 05:28 PM

Quote from: donatelo on March 18, 2011, 01:15 PM
^ Tlaloc, because you're lucky once doesn't mean you are always going to be lucky.

^ Donatelo, pears taste nice and so do grapes.

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Re: So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
Reply #5 - March 18, 2011, 05:29 PM

Sorry, for a second I thought this was the festival of non sequitur

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Re: So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
Reply #6 - March 18, 2011, 05:56 PM

Why guys are speaking cryptic language?? Spell out clearly. Do you want Nuclear Energy or Not??

Quote from: yeezevee on March 18, 2011, 12:24 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99EbhO3gPvk

In that above video where do you guys stand? Do you guys like to vote that crying Green Peace guy or to that heckling Tucker guy??

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Re: So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
Reply #7 - March 18, 2011, 06:39 PM

Quote from: Tlaloc on March 18, 2011, 01:06 PM
I like how the fact that 30+ year old nuclear reactors not standing a super earthquake and a super tsunami makes people suddenly scared of nuclear energy.
Especially if you consider that that same quake+tsunami has already killed way more people than the nuclear accident will ever do.

I agree with that.
The fact is that taking away nuclear power will only hurt ourselves.
We currently lack the technology for renewable resources to play a big enough part in providing enough power
(not that it can't be involved, just not a primary foundation for energy as yet)

If Japans recent events show anything, it's that the plants need to be away from fault lines and away from populated areas.
Let's not forget, we've had nuclear power for around half a decade and the risks and death ratio's are ridiculously low compared to pretty much most things.
(I believe people are actually trampelled by cows to death than die from radiation exposure through nuclear plants)

Sure, we could always say 'we could be unlucky one day', but by that logic skyscrapers are a death trap and combustion engines are an accident just waiting to happen.
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Re: So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
Reply #8 - March 18, 2011, 07:23 PM

we need nuclear energy, until we come up with some better and efficient renewable energy sources that could replace all harmful or potentially harmful energy sources...

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Re: So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
Reply #9 - March 18, 2011, 08:38 PM

The Economist argues the contrary: " We urge the world not to turn its back on a technology that has so far been much safer than coal, and offers a low-carbon alternative to fossil fuels that is cheaper than most renewables."

http://www.economist.com/node/18395981?Story_ID=18395981&fsrc=nlw|hig|17-03-2011|editors_highlights

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Re: So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
Reply #10 - March 18, 2011, 09:12 PM

Quote from: Tlaloc on March 18, 2011, 01:06 PM
I like how the fact that 30+ year old nuclear reactors not standing a super earthquake and a super tsunami makes people suddenly scared of nuclear energy.
Especially if you consider that that same quake+tsunami has already killed way more people than the nuclear accident will ever do.

The nuclear 'accident' hasn't finished yet and will not do so until the last person to die of one form of cancer or another as a result of it, at some decade in the future, has done so. We don't yet know how bad it's going to be even in the immediate future because the plant has not been made safe.

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Re: So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
Reply #11 - April 17, 2011, 09:38 PM

Quote from: Bardhi_i_zi on March 18, 2011, 07:23 PM
we need nuclear energy, until we come up with some better and efficient renewable energy sources that could replace all harmful or potentially harmful energy sources...

This^^^ Though I would say that the crisis created by the tsnuami should make people more critical of it. Questioning current safeguards is the best way to encourage better safeguards be developed. Like, I dunno-- not building reactors on fault lines and ensuring that you have enough staff at the plant willing to risk their own lives to prevent a meltdown, and that there will be no general evacuation of staff until it's determined beyond reasonable doubt that the crisis is incapable of being contained.

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Re: So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
Reply #12 - April 17, 2011, 09:47 PM

f
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Re: So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
Reply #13 - April 17, 2011, 09:53 PM

It's not like oil is much better when shit goes wrong

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
Reply #14 - April 17, 2011, 10:06 PM

True, but the reason the oil and coal industry has more destructive accidents is precisely because there's much less regulation over that kind of energy production than nuclear energy production.

The oil refinery near me, which is already dangerous due to its age and lack of technological/safety upgrades over the years (I have a friend who's a union activist working at that plant who tells me this shit and also of his coworkers who have been horribly burned due to the company's safety neglect), tried a couple of years ago in its contract negotiations with the union to eliminate almost 50% of the positions there-- recklessly understaffing the refinery to ridiculously unsafe levels-- a single major SO3 release from there would have the potential to kill hundreds in my neighborhood. Only a threatened strike and a rally of thousands of union members from around the country shutting down Market Street in center city Philadelphia was able to avert the company's plans, but it was insane for them to even suggest it.

Because the nuclear energy industry is so tightly regulated and often state-owned (and because it is so feared by the general population, perhaps out of proportion to the actual risk), the potential for greedy company owners to recklessly sacrifice safety in the name of profit is much, much less than in oil or coal.

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Re: So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
Reply #15 - April 17, 2011, 11:53 PM

f]
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Re: So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
Reply #16 - April 18, 2011, 12:14 AM

Quote
Because the nuclear energy industry is so tightly regulated and often state-owned (and because it is so feared by the general population, perhaps out of proportion to the actual risk), the potential for greedy company owners to recklessly sacrifice safety in the name of profit is much, much less than in oil or coal.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode42/usc_sec_42_00002210----000-.html

^ is government imposed cap on liability for the nuclear industry -- private liability for nuclear accidents is $375 million for an individual company, plus $12.6 billion from an industry liability pool. Any significant accident, even ones far less severe that Fukushima, would cost far more than that.

To help you cut though the legislative-ize

"Ensure adequate compensation to the victims of a nuclear power plant accident" = taxpayers are on the hook because the nuclear industry can't cover their risk

"to promote private industry's participation in the development of nuclear power by limiting its liability in the event of an accident." = reassure stockholders they can safely invest in nuclear because the taxpayer is going to pay clean up the mess

This is a huge subsidy to nuclear because investors see the industry as safe (artificially so), their insurance premiums are that much less, and the extraordinary catastrophic risks uniquely associated with nuclear become the government's problem.

Conclusion: Government interference at least in this aspect has made the nuclear company owners far more reckless and willing to take risks with a meltdown than they otherwise would be if there were no government subsidy.

Conceded: The government makes these kinds of get off the hook deals with oil and gas as well.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
Reply #17 - April 18, 2011, 02:39 AM

Don't see how the evidence you presented supports your conclusion, and you're only citing one aspect of government regulation out of many.

But it is a good argument for completely collectivizing the nuclear industry under a democratic socialist framework, which is what I'm sure you were suggesting, deusvult.

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Re: So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
Reply #18 - April 18, 2011, 06:23 AM

If nuclear can be safe and useable in the future then let the ones who believe so pay for it and be responsible for it. Externalizing the risks and costs of contamination to the tax payer is a sure fire way to have reckless and dangerous behavior. Why act cautiously when your only responsible for a few billion dollars of risk out of possible trillions? Obviously nationalizing plants face a similar problem per the usual lack of responsibly and distortion of incentives for the government.

The truth of the matter is nuclear plants would be far more regulated privately because the full weight of responsibility would be on the company insuring the plant fully. When something goes wrong and your liable for everything then your going to make sure everything runs right.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
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Re: So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
Reply #19 - April 18, 2011, 06:49 AM

Quote from: deusvult on April 18, 2011, 06:23 AM
If nuclear can be safe and useable in the future then let the ones who believe so pay for it and be responsible for it. Externalizing the risks and costs of contamination to the tax payer is a sure fire way to have reckless and dangerous behavior. Why act cautiously when your only responsible for a few billion dollars of risk out of possible trillions? Obviously nationalizing plants face a similar problem per the usual lack of responsibly and distortion of incentives for the government.

The truth of the matter is nuclear plants would be far more regulated privately because the full weight of responsibility would be on the company insuring the plant fully. When something goes wrong and your liable for everything then your going to make sure everything runs right.

I am just curious here., how many of the private sectors/industries own or regulate Nuclear power plants dear deusvult?? what Nuclear Industry needs is More research.,m and whatever has done so far is also so secretive very little is in public domain..

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Re: So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
Reply #20 - April 18, 2011, 04:05 PM

Quote from: deusvult on April 18, 2011, 06:23 AM
If nuclear can be safe and useable in the future then let the ones who believe so pay for it and be responsible for it. Externalizing the risks and costs of contamination to the tax payer is a sure fire way to have reckless and dangerous behavior. Why act cautiously when your only responsible for a few billion dollars of risk out of possible trillions? Obviously nationalizing plants face a similar problem per the usual lack of responsibly and distortion of incentives for the government.

The truth of the matter is nuclear plants would be far more regulated privately because the full weight of responsibility would be on the company insuring the plant fully. When something goes wrong and your liable for everything then your going to make sure everything runs right.

I get the theory, deusvult, but you cherry-picked one government regulation in this industry amongst many and have not provided any empirical evidence to support your theory. You say:

Quote
Government interference at least in this aspect has made the nuclear company owners far more reckless and willing to take risks with a meltdown than they otherwise would be if there were no government subsidy.

But I don't see any evidence to show that is true, most likely because that aspect of "government interference" does not exist in a vacuum and there are other safety regulations that outweigh the potential negative impact of that lemon socialist law.

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Re: So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
Reply #21 - April 18, 2011, 04:22 PM

Removing nuclear power plants does significantly more harm than good and seems to be nothing other than a knee-jerk reaction to Japans event, but this is absurd:

The plant lacked high enough safety protocol enforcement on numerous occasions
Was decades old
In a highly populated area
Directly ontop of an earthquake prone location
Which was hit by one of the largest Earthquakes on record, dead centre
Outcome = a handful of deaths as a direct result
More people fall into cooling towers than events such as this.

There is no current replacement for fossil fuels besides nuclear.
Solar energy is incredibly weak at the moment and near-useless in plenty of countries most of the time
and I sure as hell don't see anyone constructing wind turbines on mount everest.

If people want to make other resources usable to our requirements then they sure as hell better open their wallets as the technology needs billions to progress to make it usable or they better have another viable option that no one has currently thought of, because otherwise they need to keep quiet and look at the reality of the situation.
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Re: So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
Reply #22 - April 21, 2011, 09:17 PM

Unless we come up with something more efficient, there won't be a debate when the oil runs out and nuclear is the only viable option.

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Re: So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
Reply #23 - April 26, 2011, 01:22 AM

Hydroelectric, Solar, Tidal, and Nuclear. I think these 4 would be sufficient enough to help our situation.

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Re: So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
Reply #24 - April 26, 2011, 02:11 AM

Quote from: Sherif-ET on April 26, 2011, 01:22 AM
Hydroelectric, Solar, Tidal, and Nuclear. I think these 4 would be sufficient enough to help our situation.

Not in their current state.
Solar energy is absolutely terrible in most places, most of the time.
They require direct sunlight and can only use certain wave-lengths and are only UPTO 18% efficient with that.
I've come across some people in England who outright state that there has been no savings or improvement with a roof covered with panels.

There are similar problems with practical uses of most other forms of renewable power (limit to viable locations, lack of consistency, ideal locations being impractical, lack of efficiency in the systems etc etc)

We need far more money put into research of renewable energy to make it a viable addition.
If America would shift some of it's military spending to something that actually works, then I would be inclined to whole-heartedly agree with you.
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Re: So should we eliminate Nuclear power plants from the face of the earth??
Reply #25 - April 26, 2011, 02:23 AM

Ah, sorry you are totally right I should have clarified. I meant Solar energy and Wind energy system's installed in each house to lessen the power demands. But the main ones that output the large amounts of energy, like Hydro and Tidal(which is still in it's infancy and at most outputs 70MW in Norway I believe), are going to save our butts. But yea, we do need to start investing more money into renewable energy.

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