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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim

 (Read 11249 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     OP - March 25, 2011, 04:05 AM

    Long time reader, now decided to start posting after taking my precautions.

    I came across this website for the first time by chance while I was looking around Youtube for religion related videos, I was shocked of what I've seen on Youtube, but that's not where my story begins, so let's go way back.

    I was born in Saudi Arabia, both my parents are Saudi, lived most of my life there under the veil of Islam according to that country, so my knowledge of this religion is above average compared to Muslims who aren't Arabs, or so I think.  I was both a "good boy" and a "good Muslim", did everything asked of my religion, heck I even did Hajj, but Zakat was the only thing which I didn't get the chance to do. I used to memorize the Quran, so you can say I was a typical Saudi Muslim (except I shave my beard).

    There were times when I had minor concerns about small details regarding Islam, well they only seemed minor at the time which is probably why I shook them off in favor of focusing on my schoolwork, but the time where I really started to have doubts is during my 20s (I'm still in my 20s, so this is recent), when someone non-Muslim asked me one simple question:

    "Why are you a Muslim?"

    "I was raised that way."

    I am the type of person who thinks a lot, so I felt something very wrong as I was saying these words, is this REALLY why am I a Muslim? It never occurred to me before WHY am I one, and if this was really my reason, then I am no different from any other Chrisitian/Jew/religious person, so after that I started searching for something.... anything that would count as a good reason to be a Muslim, I remembered in my school days the religion teachers used to talk about scientific miracles in the Quran, which is where I started my search, some way somehow I ended up on Youtube on videos that destroy the idea of religion itself, and Abarahamic religions especially, this made my concerns become much much deeper.

    I saw later videos of atheists teaching critical thinking, this was my very first light in the darkness I was in, so I was able to make my own conclusions about stuff later on, I also learned what evolution really is, and the true meaning of a scientific theory. Yet it didn't seem my own thinking will take me back to Islam, because the conclusion I reached was Islam isn't what it claims to be, and I was too scared to talk to people face to face about it, so instead I started writing in Arabic forums that defend Islam, I chose one that had a record of successfully removing the doubts of those who had them, but to save time let's say they didn't manage to help me in my case, guess those who had their doubts removed were following confirmation bias or something... On an Islamic level that forum's distinguished users were good, but on a scientific level they were no different than Christian creationists.

    So here I am now, someone who lives in the most conservative Islamic country that has its own definition of free speech and treats apostasy the same it does with capital crimes, meaning I have no hopes of showing my actual world view to the people around me and have to live in the same manner as the Munafiqin whom I used to despise. I still haven't told my family about my big change yet, not sure when to tell them... Maybe when I am independent (well... I technically am, only my income isn't fully independent yet) and after immigrating from the country, because I don't think I have any chances of living here while keeping my sanity in the long term since I don't like the idea of living a lie, but simply leaving the country feels like the too easy way out, I have thoughts of making a cause that makes strictly Islamic countries accept non-believers, but that is just me in my wild fantasies.

    I'm feeling I'm forgetting many things to say, but I'll stop here for now, there were details I obscured from this introduction for my own anonymity, I'm that much scared of having someone figure out who I am and then have my head rolling on the ground.

    I'm not sure on what my religious views are right now, I'm between atheist and irreligious, but definitely ex-muslim, actually.... was I really ever a muslim? feels like I was always in a dream state...

    P.S.: Could you please encrypt your password file or something? I was scared when I saw my precious password included in the registration email.

    P.P.S.: Don't ask what my screen name means, I came up with it just for this forum Wink

    *opens the parrots cage*
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #1 - March 25, 2011, 04:13 AM

    Hey, signwelcome Nedkalyc

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #2 - March 25, 2011, 04:49 AM

    Welcome to the forum Smiley
    I'm sure you'll like it here and keep posting
    Heres the traditional welcome parrot  parrot
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #3 - March 25, 2011, 06:10 AM

    hello Smiley welcome to the forum Nedkalyc!  signwelcome

    I think a lot of us were brought here by google. Verily google guides whom it wills!

  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #4 - March 25, 2011, 06:24 AM

    Hi Nedkalyc..

    Welcome.. Glad to see someone from strict islamic country.. Smiley I also want to move from my country to another place where being an apostate is really okay.. Let's just hope that day will come soon..  parrot
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #5 - March 25, 2011, 06:29 AM

    I used to hate the munafiqs as well. It's so sad to become someone you've hated isn't it. At least you're not alone.
    أهلا وسهلا

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #6 - March 25, 2011, 07:54 AM

    Welcome

    Someone once told me there is a difference between theism and Gnosticism.
    Theism = regarding an I tervening god.
    Gnosticism = regarding knowledge of god.

    So at the moment you could be an agnostic theist, meaning you believe in an intervening god but have no knowledge of it (no religion.) Or if you now think this god does not intervene then you could be an agnostic deist.

    Either way, you have pit that bs behind you, congratulations!

    Could you really be killed for leaving your religion in your country?

    PS: Coincidentally I woke up this morning wondering why I had the word munafiq in my head Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #7 - March 25, 2011, 08:02 AM

    Quote
    Could you really be killed for leaving your religion in your country?


    yes, but only if he went public about it, and if he would insist not to retract his position.

    Being an apostate in Saudi isn't really hard except if you needed to do booze/sex without hiding (well, non practicing Muslim Saudis, a big chunk of the society, suffer the same predicament) + if you felt the urge to share your views with others.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #8 - March 25, 2011, 08:05 AM

    oh and welcome by the way (from a fellow Saudi).

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #9 - March 25, 2011, 08:09 AM

    yes, but only if he went public about it, and if he would insist not to retract his position.

    Being an apostate in Saudi isn't really hard except if you needed to do booze/sex without hiding (well, non practicing Muslim Saudis, a big chunk of the society, suffer the same predicament) + if you felt the urge to share your views with others.


    I haver no idea what you meant by that, debunker? Did you mean that the government does not read people's mind, so apostasy is no biggy, unless one decides to share their feelings on tilifizyoon? LOL I'm still not nominating you for JOTM

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #10 - March 25, 2011, 08:16 AM

    Quote
    I haver no idea what you meant by that, debunker? Did you mean that the government does not read people's mind, so apostasy is no biggy, unless one decides to share their feelings on tilifizyoon? LOL I'm still not nominating you for JOTM


    obviously you can't be that dense. I was just saying that this quote by the OP:

    Quote
    I'm feeling I'm forgetting many things to say, but I'll stop here for now, there were details I obscured from this introduction for my own anonymity, I'm that much scared of having someone figure out who I am and then have my head rolling on the ground.


    is only a poetic exaggeration... being "discovered" doesn't automatically mean head rolling on the ground (it probably happens in other Isalmic countries, e.g. Iran/Afghanistan, but not in Saudi).

    Anyway, i think i suffer from OCPD (self-diagnosed), so don't mind everything I say.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #11 - March 25, 2011, 08:28 AM

    I'm glad you realize that I can not be that dense, which can only mean that you misunderstood me. Do you think in between happy Muslim life in SA and departing for eternal breakdancing in Jahannam there is also an unpleasant existence of having to hide ho you are? Obviously I was referring to your statement that life of apostates is not that hard in SA.

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #12 - March 25, 2011, 09:41 AM

    again, alex, you seem to have missed what I actaully said... i'll highlight the relevant part:

    Quote
    Being an apostate in Saudi isn't really hard except if you needed to do booze/sex without hiding (well, non practicing Muslim Saudis, a big chunk of the society, suffer the same predicament) + if you felt the urge to share your views with others.


    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #13 - March 25, 2011, 09:58 AM

    yes, but only if he went public about it, and if he would insist not to retract his position.


    Step 1: Make it unacceptable to leave
    Step 2: Tell people what they have to do once they are in

    Baby steps to total domination Smiley

    @Debunker, is that a valid position for this country to hold according to your understanding of Islam?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #14 - March 25, 2011, 10:01 AM

    rephrase your question i didn't get it.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #15 - March 25, 2011, 10:03 AM

    I'll try

    Me: What do you think about that?
    You:
    A] Fucked up man, that's completely against Islam!
    B] Cut the fuckers' heads off! Allah said do it, who are we to question Allah?
    C] Other answer of your choice in order to avoid a false dichotomy Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #16 - March 25, 2011, 10:12 AM

    Quote
    Me: What do you think about that?
    You:
    A] Fucked up man, that's completely against Islam!
    B] Cut the fuckers' heads off! Allah said do it, who are we to question Allah?
    C] Other answer of your choice in order to avoid a false dichotomy


    None of the above because:

    a) an ex-Muslim, by default, doesn't give a fuck about Islam.
    b) God doesn't say an apostate should be killed (produce the verse if you think so, in fact the Quran's punishment for those who mock God's word is: to leave them alone until they change the subject, boo hoo! -- that's a Medinan verse by the way).
    c) that's what irritates me about you, TR,  this pretense of *getting* me and knowing, beforehand, all the games i would play to evade your sharp questions.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #17 - March 25, 2011, 10:15 AM

    None of the above because:

    a) an ex-Muslim, by default, doesn't give a fuck about Islam.
    b) God doesn't say an apostate should be killed (produce the verse if you think so, in fact the Quran's punishment for those who mock God's word is: to leave them alone until they change the subject, boo hoo! -- that's a Medinan verse by the way).
    c) that's what irritates me about you, TR,  this pretense of *getting* me and knowing, beforehand, all the games i would play to evade your sharp questions.


    You really have got me wrong.  I know that the Quran doesn't say to kill apostates it is only in hadiths, and I believe you are a Quran only Muslim.  I was simply curious about what it is like living in a country that says something about Islam you disagree with.

    I think you infer too much, I am really much more simple than you give me credit for.  Although it is somewhat complimentary that you see me as some kind of chess player, even if it is a poor one Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #18 - March 25, 2011, 10:23 AM

    Great story and welcome! Here's another parrot for you  parrot
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #19 - March 25, 2011, 10:23 AM

    Ooooh, I see!  It was the possible answers I gave in the follow up post?

    On no, let me explain those.  I re-read my question and it looked really clear to me, I couldn't think how I could make it more clear.  So what I did instead was to give an example of what I was getting at, I was not anticipating the words of your reply.  I was asking (with humour I thought) if you agree with the country's stance on the matter or not.  I would have been surprised for you to say "Yes", I was just going to ask if it bothered you or not?  I'm just trying to get an idea of life in a country that has a law they claim is based on your religion when you think it is a misrepresentation.

    I was just expecting you to either say that it didn't bother you, or that it pissses you off.  No big deal.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #20 - March 25, 2011, 10:40 AM

    Quote
    You really have got me wrong.  I know that the Quran doesn't say to kill apostates it is only in hadiths, and I believe you are a Quran only Muslim.  I was simply curious about what it is like living in a country that says something about Islam you disagree with.

    i'm not a quran only muslim, i just don't recognize the authority of Prophet Bukhari and his pals... i even go so far as to claim that those who (practically) view the works of Bukhari et al. as binding, are heretics.

    living in a country that doesn't share my views on Islam is no different than living in a world where all of its Muslim inhabitants don't share my views on Islam. No one should share my views on Isalm, i just hope that everyone would have their own views instead of following the Mullahs like cattle.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #21 - March 25, 2011, 10:52 AM

    i'm not a quran only muslim, i just don't recognize the authority of Prophet Bukhari and his pals... i even go so far as to claim that those who (practically) view the works of Bukhari et al. as binding, are heretics.


    Oh, I didn't realise that.  I thought you just didn't accept hadiths.

    living in a country that doesn't share my views on Islam is no different than living in a world where all of its Muslim inhabitants don't share my views on Islam. No one should share my views on Isalm, i just hope that everyone would have their own views instead of following the Mullahs like cattle.


    I agree with you on that.  These people are self appointed intermediaries between individuals and their god, with whom they believe they have a one to one relationship.  I really do dislike being referred to a scholar, I wish people would think for themselves.

    I was just trying to imagine myself in your situation.  The apostasy thing wouldn't be relevant because it seems like one of those bi-laws we have in the UK (no car is allowed to travel on the roads without a bail of hay for the horse), but if there were a law which was being enforced which I felt was contrary to my beliefs I am not certain I would have the ability to keep quiet about it.

    I'm not trying to do anything other than imagine life in other places, no trickery Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #22 - March 25, 2011, 11:00 AM

    Quote
    i just hope that everyone would have their own views instead of following the Mullahs like cattle.

    It's a fine line between following a Mullah and a book.

    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #23 - March 25, 2011, 11:03 AM

    It's a fine line between following a Mullah and a book.


    People will probably always look to authority, it is a natural human desire for most people to conform, it removes stress.  That's one reason I think the whole concept of prophethood is flawed.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #24 - March 25, 2011, 11:07 AM

    @ arx

    i think you might have OCPD too, but it seems a bit more severe in your case.

    Let me give you a clear example in support of this diagnosis: click here.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #25 - March 25, 2011, 11:09 AM

    @ arx

    i think you might have OCPD too, but it seems a bit more severe in your case.

    Let me give you a clear example in support of this diagnosis: click here.

    Ha, that made me chuckle out loud.  You might be right.

    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #26 - March 25, 2011, 12:50 PM

    Welcome, and great story. I think I have it bad here in Pakistan, but compared to Saudia Arabia I seem to have things a lot easier  mysmilie_977.

    Since you're a native arabic speaker, did you ever fall for the 'miraculous' nature of quran claim? When you used to read the quran, did it ever occur to you that 'this is crap' or did you use to like reading it?

    I know that when I read the translation of the quran, it occured to me many times that I could write a better book than this, but I used to stifle that doubt.

    P.S this is a good program to download and use when you're visiting this forum, it will make it hard/impossible for your internet activities to be monitored by the government or anyone else:

    http://securitykiss.com/sk/index.php
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #27 - March 25, 2011, 01:23 PM

    Welcome Nedkalyc

    I moved back to Saudi about 4 years ago,went through the Paranoia of restricting myself  and can't say i am completely free of it. although i don't find it as restrictive as i initially thought. If you do see your vision through , i would advise you to actively pursue it whilst outside the country. Saudi Seems to address  what's made public in pursuit of civilian feedback & support. they are put in a position to make examples out of them.not necessarily by killing them , i'm thinking more of the lines of jail time. Which is death to me unless it's filled with thinkers..& access to the net & coffee & cigarettes ...ahh i could go on!




    "Tomorrow is the today you were worried about yesterday" Unknown
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #28 - March 25, 2011, 01:32 PM


    P.S this is a good program to download and use when you're visiting this forum, it will make it hard/impossible for your internet activities to be monitored by the government or anyone else:

    http://securitykiss.com/sk/index.php


    If he doesn't get *political*, the government couldn't care less what he writes here or on any other forum.

    anyway, for those of us politics oriented, does this program you recommend help 100% block away any prying eyes? even if they really wanted to know what you're doing online?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi, Saudi ex-muslim
     Reply #29 - March 25, 2011, 01:36 PM

    This would not stop a government from spying on your communications.  It would be quite easy for a government to packet sniff your data and break the encryption.  The only communications safe from governments are those of other governments.......or are they (evil chuckle)

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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