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 Topic: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale

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  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #30 - March 26, 2011, 10:50 PM

    i have to call it a day today and go - i will catch up tommorow with hopefully more responses to see  Smiley

    Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    "That is surely true, it is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth."
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #31 - March 26, 2011, 10:55 PM

    i have to call it a day today and go - i will catch up tommorow with hopefully more responses to see  Smiley


    wait..wait.. So how did you find CEMB?  did any one advertise it to you ? and don't forget to tell your Muslim friends to join CEMB., This forum needs some one who is thorough with Islamic scriptures.

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #32 - March 26, 2011, 10:56 PM

    without taking ages to explain . Ill direct you here :http://www.answering-christianity.com/beating_no.htm


    That article seems to imply that the verse does not mean "hit" - is that what you think?

    Do you understand Arabic?

  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #33 - March 26, 2011, 11:12 PM

    Aren't the mods a little early giving bluecake the title "ex-muslim"?

  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #34 - March 26, 2011, 11:15 PM

    The mods didn't do it, you can do it yourself now when you register.

    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #35 - March 26, 2011, 11:25 PM

    i have to call it a day today and go - i will catch up tommorow with hopefully more responses to see  Smiley


    OK, see you tomorrow. Hopefully you can tell me why all the classical tafseers have always understood that this verse means you can hit your wife. Why the prophet himself explained it should not be a harsh beating (غير مبرح) and that is how Muslims for 1400 years have understood it.

    I understand Arabic btw. It clearly says "hit" and the explanations that it means 'leave' or 'avoid' are truly laughable and no-one who understands Arabic well will ever say that.

    But for arguments sake let's say it doesn't mean "hit". Did Allah not know that when he wanted to stop the Jahiliyya Arabs from hitting their wives it would have been a good idea not to use the word "hit" (ضرب) as it obviously would be mistaken to mean... erm... "hit" - as indeed it was for 1400 years until some guys who don't speak Arabic very well and lived in societies that strongly disapproved of hitting wives suddenly "discovered" another meaning Wink

    Could it be that you 'want' it to mean something else?

    If the Qur'an is truly the word of God - shouldn't you submit to it and accept it - rather than following your own desires?
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #36 - March 26, 2011, 11:49 PM

    i have to call it a day today and go - i will catch up tommorow with hopefully more responses to see  Smiley


    Who are you on TSR?
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #37 - March 27, 2011, 01:28 AM

    OK, see you tomorrow. Hopefully you can tell me why all the classical tafseers have always understood that this verse means you can hit your wife. Why the prophet himself explained it should not be a harsh beating (غير مبرح) and that is how Muslims for 1400 years have understood it.

    I understand Arabic btw. It clearly says "hit" and the explanations that it means 'leave' or 'avoid' are truly laughable and no-one who understands Arabic well will ever say that.

    But for arguments sake let's say it doesn't mean "hit". Did Allah not know that when he wanted to stop the Jahiliyya Arabs from hitting their wives it would have been a good idea not to use the word "hit" (ضرب) as it obviously would be mistaken to mean... erm... "hit" - as indeed it was for 1400 years until some guys who don't speak Arabic very well and lived in societies that strongly disapproved of hitting wives suddenly "discovered" another meaning Wink

    Could it be that you 'want' it to mean something else?

    If the Qur'an is truly the word of God - shouldn't you submit to it and accept it - rather than following your own desires?


    May the peace and blessings of Allah be with you,

    Thank you for being patient. To get to your last point first: Like you have just said ‘Could it be that you 'want' it to mean something else?’ it’s important that muslims always look to see the true interpretation from the Quran and not try to conform the interpretation to their own beliefs (like some muslims are doing with attempting to prove that the Quran accepts evolutionism from apes to humans ¬¬).

    To get the best out – we must look at the authentic Hadith and the Quran together.

    “… As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

    First we have to examine to what extent being ‘disloyal’ and having ‘ill-conduct’ is (wearing revealing clothes outside/having an affair /any other deliberate persistent breach of her marital obligations etc.).

    So firstly the husband must warn his wife if she is commiting a terrible sin.

    If the wife does not correct her mistake after admonition the second condition follows that the husband should not sleep together  (intercourse) as well as not speak to her.

    We must remember still that if the wife corrects her sin then the husband cannot continue to annoy her (“seek not against them Means (of annoyance)”)

    Now before we look at the final condition we have to keep in mind that daraba has at least two meanings: two of which are beating and tapping.
    To see which one is more appropriate let us look at other hadiths and surahs:  

    "...Do not retain them (i.e., your wives) to harm them...(The Noble Quran, 2:231)"

    Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: "I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command)
    about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them.  (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)"

    Narrated Mu'awiyah ibn Haydah: "I said: Apostle of Allah, how should we approach our wives and how should we leave them? He replied: Approach your tilth when or how you will, give her (your wife) food when you take food, clothe when you clothe yourself, do not revile her face, and do not beat her.  (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2138)"

    "O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good.  (The Noble Quran, 4:19)"

    Clearly if the quote from (4:34) did at any level illustrate to hit then its clear it would have been to tap rather than to beat and even the interpretation of beat (lightly) itself appears to harsh instead of symbolic (where it is ordered to hit only by a toothbrush or handkerchief) – and we must remember it is in order to stop evils and sinning occurring – after all islam promotes a mutual loving marriage. Smiley

    But let us not forget it’s not just about muslim men restraining themselves from something they shouldn’t do but also a woman has every right to take action herself:

    "If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, God is well-acquainted with all that ye do.  (The Noble Quran, 4:128)"

    The quran recognizes that men can sometimes feel to have a false need for control (‘men’s souls swayed by greed’) so the woman has her rights to take action.

    Other quotes showing the importance of the love and not abuse relationship (I’ll put this bit in Large brackets just in case its too long – so you can skip it):

    [[[Al-Tirmidhi, Number 3895:
    "Narrated by al-Tirmidhi: the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "The best of you is the one who is best to his wife, and I am the best of you to my wives."

    Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying: "He who believes in Allah and the Hereafter, if he witnesses any matter he should talk in good terms about it or keep quiet. Act kindly towards woman, for woman is created from a rib, and the most crooked part of the rib is its top. If you attempt to straighten it, you will break it, and if you leave it, its crookedness will remain there. So act kindly towards women.  (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 008, Number 3468)"  

    "Women impure for men impure. And women of purity for men of purity. These are not affected by what people say. For them is forgiveness and an honorable provision. (The Noble Quran 24:26)"
    Narrated Abu Huraira: "Allah's Apostle said, 'The strong is not the one who overcomes the people by his strength, but the strong is the one who controls himself while in anger.  (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Good Manners and Form (Al-Adab), Volume 8, Book 73, Number 135)"

    Narrated Abu Huraira: "A man said to the Prophet , 'Advise me! 'The Prophet said, 'Do not become angry and furious.' The man asked (the same) again and again, and the Prophet said in each case, 'Do not become angry and furious.'   (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Good Manners and Form (Al-Adab), Volume 8, Book 73, Number 137)"  

    Abu Huraira reported: "I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: One is not strong because of one's wrestling skillfully. They said: Allah's Messenger, then who is strong? He said: He who controls his anger when he is in a fit of rage.  (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Virtue, Good Manners and Joining of the Ties of Relationship (Kitab Al-Birr was-Salat-I-wa'l-Adab), Book 032, Number 6314)"

    Allah Almighty loves those who restrain anger: "Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity, or in adversity; who restrain anger, and pardon (all) men; for Allah loves those who do good.  (The Noble Quran, 3:134)"  ]]]
     
    Salaam

    Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    "That is surely true, it is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth."
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #38 - March 27, 2011, 01:33 AM

    bluecake

    I'm just planting these little seeds in your head now, making them as sharp and concise as possible, so they will be more memorable in the back of your mind, ready to sprout when you're older, when the lies you've been indoctrinated about religion and specifically your religion begin to itch you badly in your free human conscience.

    Welcome to the forum, by the way  Afro



    Like an ex-muslim Morpheus.
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #39 - March 27, 2011, 01:44 AM

    OK, see you tomorrow. Hopefully you can tell me why all the classical tafseers have always understood that this verse means you can hit your wife. Why the prophet himself explained it should not be a harsh beating (غير مبرح) and that is how Muslims for 1400 years have understood it.

    I understand Arabic btw. It clearly says "hit" and the explanations that it means 'leave' or 'avoid' are truly laughable and no-one who understands Arabic well will ever say that.

    But for arguments sake let's say it doesn't mean "hit". Did Allah not know that when he wanted to stop the Jahiliyya Arabs from hitting their wives it would have been a good idea not to use the word "hit" (ضرب) as it obviously would be mistaken to mean... erm... "hit" - as indeed it was for 1400 years until some guys who don't speak Arabic very well and lived in societies that strongly disapproved of hitting wives suddenly "discovered" another meaning Wink

    Could it be that you 'want' it to mean something else?

    If the Qur'an is truly the word of God - shouldn't you submit to it and accept it - rather than following your own desires?


    This was a Sheikhs response to a similar question asked using the same quote. (4:34)

    Salam, Rany.

    Thank you, brother, for your question. It shows how you care for deepening the understanding of Islam in your heart, and were honored you chose us to offer you this support. We hope this answer will provide you with a logical explanation from many angles of the issue.


    First, lets remember that domestic violence is a universal issue. Despite the universality of domestic violence, Muslim men involved in wife abuse have attracted more attention than others. Their stories are highlighted in the media, giving the impression that this is an inherent part of Islam supported by the Quran, which of course is not true.


    How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace (sleep with) her? This question was asked by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) more than 1,400 years ago. It is applicable today to all people of all faiths and cultures, considering the rates of domestic violence all over the world.


    So before we elaborate, let us begin by agreeing on some important points:


    There is a distinction between Islam and the behavior of individual Muslims. As in any law, creed, or faith, it is unfair to hold each and every Muslim as an official representative of the faith, perceiving his or her behavior as a reflection of Islamic teachings and assuming it is supported by the Quran. Individual behavior is nothing but a reflection of a human individual, who could be right or wrong, gentle or violent, pious or otherwise. If some individuals who happen to be Muslims misbehave, then this is their personal problem of bad manners or misinterpretation of the rules of their faith. It is not fair to allow their aggression to tarnish the image of a major world religion and all its millions of followers.


    Islam honors and respects women. In fact, abundant evidence in the Quran and Sunnah assert the rights of women in words and deeds, giving them rights that promote and preserve their human dignity in all aspects of life and worship, so it is not logical that such a humane religion would encourage physical or psychological abuse of any sort against Muslims of either gender and of any age, race, or social status, much less against women.


    Marriage in Islam is a sacred bond. In Islam, the marriage of a man and a woman is not just a financial and physical arrangement of living together, but a sacred contract, a gift from Allah, to lead a happy, enjoyable life and continue the human race. The relationship between the spouses as described in the Quran reflects equal rights and responsibilities, and it should be based on tranquility, love, and mercy. It is the duty of both husband and wife to be a source of comfort and tranquility for each other.


    Allah says what means:
    *{And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your [hearts]: verily in that are Signs for those who reflect.}* (Ar-Rum 30:21)

    The Quran urges husbands to treat their wives with kindness. In the event of a family dispute, the Quran asks the husband to treat his wife kindly and not to overlook her positive aspects. Allah says what means:
    *{Live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.}* (An-Nisaa 4:19)


    Islam is also against emotional abuse, not just physical abuse. Emotional abuse includes name calling, belittling, using threat of divorce as a weapon to manipulate the other, threatening with a real weapon (even with no intention of using it). Even frequent teasing, though it might start as fun, may become a type of abuse if it takes the form of sarcasm or demeaning remarks.


    The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) advised us to control our anger, not to call each other names, not to use vulgar language, and not to point a weapon at another person. This advice was general for all, but it should be taken even more seriously within a marriage.


    Considering these main points, lets now take a closer look at the particular verse you mentioned.


    This verse has been greatly misconceived. Many people take it to allow wife beating, but this is not a correct interpretation of the verse. Islam is a whole system, so you cannot isolate one point without considering all other related issues. When the setting is not taken into account, it distorts and falsifies the original meaning. We should also keep in mind that the original Arabic wording of the Quran is the only authentic source of meaning. If one relies on the translation alone, one is likely to misunderstand it.


    The Arabic verb daraba is better understood as hit rather than beat (which means repeated hard hitting, usually with something). The one verse in the Quran that mentions this Surah 4:34 has to be read in its entirety and understood in Arabic.


    Islam actually prohibits men from hitting women, except in one very limited case when the wife is continuously rebellious and disobedient not when she disobeys one request and only as a last resort after all else fails. The husband should first admonish her, then abandon her bed if she continues to be rebellious, and only if those steps have failed then he may hit, not beat, her. The earliest commentators understood that the hitting was to be light enough not to leave a mark and should be done with nothing bigger than a miswak (tooth stick).

    Also, Muslims are instructed to follow the exemplary model of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), who was known to have never hit his wives, servants, or even an animal. Consequently, a Muslim husband does not have the right to beat his wife!


    What is the definition of rebellious and disobedient?
    In Islam, while men and women have equal rights, those rights are not always identical. Islam intends the spouses to be complementary, not in rivalry, so there is a clear set of rights and responsibilities for each within the contract that rules the relationship. Islam stresses the importance of respecting contracts, most of all the marriage contract, which is described in the Quran as mithaqan ghalithan (a firm pledge).

    Furthermore, there is no tyranny in an Islamic marriage. We are all told to conduct our affairs by mutual consultation, as the Quran states what means:
    *{And those who respond to their Lord and keep up prayer, and their rule is to take counsel among themselves, and who spend out of what We have given them.}* (As-Shura 42:38)

    So in marriage, the man is named responsible for protecting, decision-making, and breadwinning; in return he has a right to have a quiet, orderly home and a loving wife to come home to who doesn't make his life difficult with constant bad temper, nagging, or aggressive attitude.

    The woman is named skilled homemaker, loving mother, and faithful counselor; in return she has a right to be provided for fully by a caring, faithful, protective husband who honors her and respects her individuality. Both should be equally supportive, loving, and caring. Both merit respect and support from their partner.

    As in any other contract, signing means that both parties agree to the terms and intend to adhere to the rules. So failing to fulfill ones responsibilities is a breach of the contract and merits limiting or temporarily withholding a corresponding right until that one gets back within the boundaries of the contract, or else the contract is nullified.

    So, for example, a wife who repeatedly and intentionally refuses to consult her husband and does things that damage the well-being of the family, or one who fails to do what they had agreed upon after consultation for no logical reason other than rebellion, or one who intentionally does what her husband hates just to make him angry, is certainly a type of woman who should be disciplined in order to preserve the peace and harmony of the Muslim home and the family members within it. This is, of course, assuming that the husband is continuously fulfilling his responsibility towards his wife and family but is not getting his fair rights in return, and that all other peaceful methods of resolving the dispute have failed.


    Commenting on this issue, Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, former president of the Islamic Society of North America, states:

    While it is important that a wife recognizes the authority of her husband as the head of the household, the husband should also use his authority with respect and kindness towards his wife. If there arises any disagreement or dispute between them, then it should be resolved in a peaceful manner. Spouses should seek the counsel of their elders and other respectable family members and friends to patch up the rift and solve the differences.

    However, in some cases a husband may use some light disciplinary action in order to correct the moral infraction of his wife, but this is only applicable in extreme cases and it should be resorted to if one is sure it would improve the situation. However, if there is a fear that it might worsen the relationship or may wreak havoc on him or the family, then he should avoid it completely.

    The Quran is very clear on this issue. Almighty Allah says what means:
    *{Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more strength than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in the husbands absence what Allah would have them to guard. As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance); for Allah is most High and Great (above you all). If you fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family and the other from hers. If they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation; for Allah has full knowledge and is acquainted with all things. }* (An-Nisaa 4:34-35)


    It is important to read the section fully. One should not take part of the verse and use it to justify ones own misconduct. This verse neither permits violence nor condones it. It guides us to ways to handle delicate family situations with care and wisdom. The word beating is used in the verse, but it does not mean physical abuse. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) explained it dharban ghayra mubarrih, which means a light tap that leaves no mark. He further said that face must be avoided. Some other scholars are of the view that it is no more than a light touch by siwak or toothbrush.

    Generally, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used to discourage his followers from taking even this measure. He never hit any female, and he used to say that the best of men are those who do not hit their wives. In one hadith he expressed his extreme repulsion from this behavior and said, "How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace (sleep with) her? (Al-Bukhari, English Translation, vol. 8, Hadith 68, pp. 42-43).

    It is also important to note that even this light strike mentioned in the verse is not to be used to correct some minor problem, but it is permissible to resort to only in a situation of some serious moral misconduct when admonishing the wife fails, and avoiding sleeping with her would not help. If this disciplinary action can correct a situation and save the marriage, then one should use it.

    Dr. Jamal Badawi, professor at Saint Marys University in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada, and a cross-appointed faculty member in the Departments of Religious Studies and Management, adds this:


    If the problem relates to the wife's behavior, the husband may exhort her and appeal for reason. In most cases, this measure is likely to be sufficient. In cases where the problem persists, the husband may express his displeasure in another peaceful manner, by sleeping in a separate bed from hers. There are cases, however, in which a wife persists in bad habits and shows contempt of her husband and disregard for her marital obligations. Instead of divorce, the husband may resort to another measure that may save the marriage, at least in some cases. Such a measure is more accurately described as a gentle tap on the body, but never on the face, making it more of a symbolic measure than a punitive one.

    The permissibility of such symbolic expression of the seriousness of continued refraction does not imply its desirability. In several hadiths, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) discouraged this measure. Here are some of his sayings in this regard:

    Do not beat the female servants of Allah.

    Some [women] visited my family complaining about their husbands [beating them]. These [husbands] are not the best of you.


    I hope this answer has addressed your concerns. Please let us know if you need more information, and please stay in touch. May Allah guide us all to whats best.

    Thank you and salam.

    Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    "That is surely true, it is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth."
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #40 - March 27, 2011, 01:59 AM

    ok? wall of text, and yet that verse is still there.
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #41 - March 27, 2011, 02:04 AM

    sorry its mainly for hassan. The first one is from me. The second one is from a shaikh.

    Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    "That is surely true, it is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth."
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #42 - March 27, 2011, 02:13 AM

    @Hassan

    OK, see you tomorrow. Hopefully you can tell me why all the classical tafseers have always understood that this verse means you can hit your wife. Why the prophet himself explained it should not be a harsh beating (غير مبرح) and that is how Muslims for 1400 years have understood it.

    I understand Arabic btw. It clearly says "hit" and the explanations that it means 'leave' or 'avoid' are truly laughable and no-one who understands Arabic well will ever say that.


    I once read that a possible interpretation given by Zamakhshari was that the verse meant 'have intercourse with them' As in the English idiom 'I'm hittin' that.' Not sure how well that works in Arabic though, and the article could have been BS.
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #43 - March 27, 2011, 08:44 AM

    I once read that a possible interpretation given by Zamakhshari was that the verse meant 'have intercourse with them' As in the English idiom 'I'm hittin' that.' Not sure how well that works in Arabic though, and the article could have been BS.

    Who would have though that author of the Quran was well versed in contemporary urban slang.

    Come to think of it, the interpretation that suggest that the verse means something along the lines of "... tap her..." makes perfect sense now:
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #44 - March 27, 2011, 08:55 AM

    This was recorded as part of the last prophets pbuh sermon - thought I would like to share since its relevant to the thread  Smiley :

    'O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you.'

    Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    "That is surely true, it is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth."
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #45 - March 27, 2011, 09:03 AM

    That doesn't negate anything anyone has said in this thread though.  You're simply quoting a generic platitude.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #46 - March 27, 2011, 09:09 AM

    Quote
    slam actually prohibits men from hitting women, except in one very limited case when the wife is continuously rebellious and disobedient not when she disobeys one request and only as a last resort after all else fails. The husband should first admonish her, then abandon her bed if she continues to be rebellious, and only if those steps have failed then he may hit, not beat, her. The earliest commentators understood that the hitting was to be light enough not to leave a mark and should be done with nothing bigger than a miswak (tooth stick).

    Also, Muslims are instructed to follow the exemplary model of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), who was known to have never hit his wives, servants, or even an animal. Consequently, a Muslim husband does not have the right to beat his wife!


    What is the definition of rebellious and disobedient?
    In Islam, while men and women have equal rights, those rights are not always identical. Islam intends the spouses to be complementary, not in rivalry, so there is a clear set of rights and responsibilities for each within the contract that rules the relationship. Islam stresses the importance of respecting contracts, most of all the marriage contract, which is described in the Quran as mithaqan ghalithan (a firm pledge).


    Mere bullshit.  At the least men and women should be treated equally in the sense of being human beings. To say that men, even in special circumstances, can beat women defeats the whole idea of "equal rights".  You can't claim both. Either claim that both men and women, both have the right to beat each other or don't claim equal rights.  

    Quote
    In Islam, while men and women have equal rights, those rights are not always identical. Islam intends the spouses to be complementary, not in rivalry, so there is a clear set of rights and responsibilities for each within the contract that rules the relationship. Islam stresses the importance of respecting contracts, most of all the marriage contract, which is described in the Quran as mithaqan ghalithan (a firm pledge).


    Btw as someone is is taking marketing and PR right now, this is A class spin.  Whoever wrote this, BP and Exxon are looking for bright minds like this.
    " Islam intends the spouses to be complementary, not in rivalry" = you better know your place and not challenge it.  All relationships, all relational knowledge comes from a dialectic.  It is born of a challenge and acceptance of negotiated roles and compromise,  not to be mandated and commanded by on high.  It  leads to injustice and oppression to simply accept one single role or a litany of commanded roles for each gender in every possible combination of marriages.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #47 - March 27, 2011, 09:31 AM

    Who are you on TSR?


    That's a mystery for you to solve.  Wink

    Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    "That is surely true, it is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth."
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #48 - March 27, 2011, 09:38 AM

    I once read that a possible interpretation given by Zamakhshari was that the verse meant 'have intercourse with them' As in the English idiom 'I'm hittin' that.' Not sure how well that works in Arabic though, and the article could have been BS.


    lol. Could you show us the link/source please  thnkyu

    Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    "That is surely true, it is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth."
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #49 - March 27, 2011, 09:43 AM

    some of these additional 'smiley icons' are quite rude :( .

    Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    "That is surely true, it is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth."
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #50 - March 27, 2011, 10:02 AM

    bluecake i understand that you have no problem in recognizing the authority of husband over his wife?

    I think a lot of us were brought here by google. Verily google guides whom it wills!

  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #51 - March 27, 2011, 10:05 AM

    I think the quote below from the last prophet (pbuh) will answer your question.

    'O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you.'

    Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    "That is surely true, it is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth."
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #52 - March 27, 2011, 10:13 AM

    In particualt many women have found that Islam gave unprecedented rights to women including the right to vote - something which is not too long ago in our modern time

    The right to vote?  For what exactly?  What did Islam give women the right to vote FOR???

    .
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #53 - March 27, 2011, 10:18 AM

    what you posted:

    "While it is important that a wife recognizes the authority of her husband as the head of the household, the husband should also use his authority with respect and kindness towards his wife."

    the man is considered as the head of the household, to him belongs final decision-making. he also has a right to discipline you, ie. exert his authority over you.
    is that an expression of respect towards women?

    I think a lot of us were brought here by google. Verily google guides whom it wills!

  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #54 - March 27, 2011, 10:24 AM

    The right to vote?  For what exactly?  What did Islam give women the right to vote FOR???


    The caliphates

    Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    "That is surely true, it is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth."
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #55 - March 27, 2011, 10:26 AM

    May the peace and blessings of Allah be with you...


    Thanks bluecake. So if a man's wife doesn't stop her "bad behaviour" after talking and separating in bed - then he should ask her to stand still for a moment while he taps her a few times with a miswak.

    Do you think that if talking and separating doesn't work that a few taps on the shoulder with a tooth stick would make her see the error of her ways? Does this sound appropriate and reasonable to you? Have you ever known anyone who has found this solved their marital problems?

    btw I'm glad you quoted the verse about what a woman can do about a man's "bad behaviour". So whereas a man can:

    1. Advise/Admonish 2. Separate 3. Tap her a few times with a Miswak.

    A woman can:

    "arrange an amicable settlement"

    Huh?

    Anyways bluecake, enjoy your stay here - talk later Smiley
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #56 - March 27, 2011, 10:32 AM

    what you posted:

    "While it is important that a wife recognizes the authority of her husband as the head of the household, the husband should also use his authority with respect and kindness towards his wife."

    the man is considered as the head of the household, to him belongs final decision-making. he also has a right to discipline you, ie. exert his authority over you.
    is that an expression of respect towards women?


    Islam gave women rights over men on certain aspects and men rights over women on certain aspects. In terms of household authority it is a minimum requirement that the husband earns and give some money to  his wife. The wife can work too but she doesn not have to give any money to her husband . Its the husbands duty to make the house safe for his wife and children.

    Its typical that the rights of women in islam are always downplayed -One example is that the mother has authority over her child 3 times more than the father. So in islam the child if his/her mother have conflicting interests for the child than the child must listen to the mother over the father. And no the husband does not have authority over the wife - if the wife feels she has been mistreated she has every right to take action against this in islam

    Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    "That is surely true, it is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth."
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #57 - March 27, 2011, 10:46 AM

    Thanks bluecake. So if a man's wife doesn't stop her "bad behaviour" after talking and separating in bed - then he should ask her to stand still for a moment while he taps her a few times with a miswak.

    Do you think that if talking and separating doesn't work that a few taps on the shoulder with a tooth stick would make her see the error of her ways? Does this sound appropriate and reasonable to you? Have you ever known anyone who has found this solved their marital problems?

    btw I'm glad you quoted the verse about what a woman can do about a man's "bad behaviour". So whereas a man can:

    1. Advise/Admonish 2. Separate 3. Tap her a few times with a Miswak.

    A woman can:

    "arrange an amicable settlement"

    Huh?

    Anyways bluecake, enjoy your stay here - talk later Smiley


    Once again its always a pleasure talking with you. A Man cant harm his wife so he has to show his stances of disapproval. If he thinks its gone too far he can divorce even though this is the very very last resort because the bond between a husband and wife is very important in islam. However lets not forget it could be the man's fault - but to escape the potential of physical abuse (because of some uncontrollable men ¬¬) a woman should seek a n amicable settlement while still being married - to let things calm down as well as tell hte husbands family of the problems. Also its an islamic duty of the wife to advise her husband to not do something if it is haraam.

    If things cant be settled Cry as the very last resort a woman can choose to dvorce although again its nott ideal because the husband-wife relationship is important in islam.

    Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    "That is surely true, it is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth."
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #58 - March 27, 2011, 11:00 AM

    Thanks, bluecake Smiley

    Can I ask you to tell me a bit about yourself? You don't have to be precise if you are worried about giving away your identity, but how old are you roughly? I assume you are female? Were you born Muslim or a convert? Do you speak Arabic?

    I am 51, male, born Muslim (but no longer Muslim), Anglo-Egyptian and I speak Arabic.

    Just helps to get an idea of who I'm talking to. Smiley
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #59 - March 27, 2011, 11:38 AM

    sorry, the only information I would be willing to give out (for now) is that I live in England.

    Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    "That is surely true, it is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth."
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