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 Topic: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale

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  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #150 - March 27, 2011, 04:48 PM
    Quote from: HighOctane on March 27, 2011, 04:40 PM
    Blimey, so she did it out of standing up for Muslims who people were pointing the finger at?
    Hard to rationalize the irrational - better to just accept it and move on.

    Wonder how she feels wearing the full burka - has she tried it?


    Amazing at first she knew the claims against muslims couldnt be true - so she ended up reading the quran 'with the impression that it would be mysogynistic, violent etc....' but when she read it she found the opposite

    Alhumdolillah
    Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    "That is surely true, it is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth."
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #151 - March 27, 2011, 04:49 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on March 27, 2011, 04:41 PM
    Bluecake - I'd like to know your reasons for being a Muslim. Smiley

    And also, do you accept evolution?


    As it is not related to the thread. Could you pm me and ill answer you.
    Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    "That is surely true, it is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth."
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #152 - March 27, 2011, 04:51 PM
    No, it is related to the thread, Bluecake.  You can answer here, it would be enlightening to know where women who convert to Islam stand on the whole evolution vs. creationism debate.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #153 - March 27, 2011, 04:52 PM
    Didn't you have a thread where you were discussing Islam generally?
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #154 - March 27, 2011, 04:57 PM
    Quote from: bluecake on March 27, 2011, 04:46 PM
    If you were aware of that then your claim was baseless. Aanyway the punishment for rape is clear: immediate death

    "When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her.  She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.

    She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him).  When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.

    He (the Prophet) said to the woman: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you.  And about the man who had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.



    Where is that quoted from? Book, hadith number, etc?
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=L2pk
    --
    Previously donatelo
    --
    Watch Ishina lie and then try to squirm her way out of it like a worm
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #155 - March 27, 2011, 04:57 PM
    I like how she had to be forgiven for being raped ^
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #156 - March 27, 2011, 05:01 PM
    thats a good question that I was trying to find out  Huh?

    Ill edit the post when I do.
    Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    "That is surely true, it is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth."
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #157 - March 27, 2011, 05:01 PM
    Quote from: bluecake on March 27, 2011, 04:48 PM
    Amazing at first she knew the claims against muslims couldnt be true - so she ended up reading the quran 'with the impression that it would be mysogynistic, violent etc....' but when she read it she found the opposite

    Alhumdolillah


    She did indeed, I diagnose that her emotional, caring nature and the novelty to be different (she's traveled widely) caused her to become a Muslim, from preliminary reading.

    On the other hand, to people more rational and have less emotional attachment, also including a former Christian, such people can be driven to become atheist by reading the Quran:

    Exhibits
    A) http://www.metalvortex.com/blog/2010/10/07/485.html
    B) http://www.spectator.co.uk/essays/all/3194231/studying-islam-has-made-me-an-atheist.thtml

    I think it's important to analyse compete data, and not tend towards facts we agree with, even though it feels good when our beliefs are proven correct.

    I think there is some quote somewhere that someone really isn't a great person until they realise that they aren't great, don't know everything, and the only thing one can do is continue to question; question your own beliefs and contradict them; take U-turns and change your inner core beliefs at times.
    Hear ye -->> DONATE TO CEMB

    Relativism | Cognitive dissonance | Cognitive biases | Memeplex | Consequentialism
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #158 - March 27, 2011, 05:01 PM
    I find the following things interesting:
    Quote from: bluecake on March 27, 2011, 04:46 PM
    They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her...She said: Yes, this is he...Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him).  When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up

    That doesn't make sense, if they had already seized the man and the woman had identified her, then why would the real rapist stand up? That doesn't make sense. And:

    Quote from: bluecake on March 27, 2011, 04:46 PM
    He (the Prophet) said to the woman: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you.

    LOL.

    Also, no reference for the hadith is given  (no book name, hadith number, narration, etc).
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=L2pk
    --
    Previously donatelo
    --
    Watch Ishina lie and then try to squirm her way out of it like a worm
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #159 - March 27, 2011, 05:04 PM
    Quote from: bluecake on March 27, 2011, 05:01 PM
    thats a good question that I was trying to find out  Huh?

    Ill edit the post when I do.

    Good, tell us if you find it, because I've never heard of this hadith before, it would've been something quoted very prominently by muslims if it were true, and also the way the hadith is written sounds like its written by a teenager rather than a real hadith.
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=L2pk
    --
    Previously donatelo
    --
    Watch Ishina lie and then try to squirm her way out of it like a worm
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #160 - March 27, 2011, 05:06 PM
    @ bluecake, would it be ok if I made a thread for discussing why you are a muslim?
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #161 - March 27, 2011, 05:08 PM
    Oh I know why she was forgiven - because she accused the wrong man by mistake.

    To L2PK
    (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4366)
    Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    "That is surely true, it is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth."
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #162 - March 27, 2011, 05:09 PM
    Quote from: bluecake on March 27, 2011, 05:01 PM
    thats a good question that I was trying to find out  Huh?

    Ill edit the post when I do.


    Its in abu dawud:

    Book 38, Number 4366:

    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/abudawud/038.sat.html
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #163 - March 27, 2011, 05:17 PM
    Quote from: bluecake on March 27, 2011, 05:08 PM
    To L2PK
    (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4366)


    I'm skeptical about this, can someone verify this? I can't find any mention of this hadith online. Searching for it, I did find this though:
    Quote
    Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 38, Number 4339:
    Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:

    The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) Said: The blood of a Muslim man who testifies that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle should not lawfully be shed except only for one of three reasons: a man who committed fornication after marriage, in which case he should be stoned; one who goes forth to fight with Allah and His Apostle, in which case he should be killed or crucified or exiled from the land; or one who commits murder for which he is killed.

    See that 'rape' is not justified as a reason for killing a muslim, hence that would contradict the previous hadith in which a rapist was killed, or at the very least that only a kafir rapist is to be killed and muslim rapist doesn't get punished.

    And:
    Quote
    Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4346:
    Narrated Sa'd ibn AbuWaqqas:

    On the day of the conquest of Mecca, Abdullah ibn Sa'd ibn AbuSarh hid himself with Uthman ibn Affan.

    He brought him and made him stand before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him), and said: Accept the allegiance of Abdullah, Apostle of Allah! He raised his head and looked at him three times, refusing him each time, but accepted his allegiance after the third time.

    Then turning to his companions, he said: Was not there a wise man among you who would stand up to him when he saw that I had withheld my hand from accepting his allegiance, and kill him?

    They said: We did not know what you had in your heart, Apostle of Allah! Why did you not give us a signal with your eye?

    He said: It is not advisable for a Prophet to play deceptive tricks with the eyes.

     Cheesy

    Last one:

    Quote
    Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4349:
    Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:

    A Jewess used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. A man strangled her till she died. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) declared that no recompense was payable for her blood.


    Nice religion of 'pieces' / 'mercy for all mankind'

    P.S you really should read through the hadiths here bluecake:

    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/abudawud/038.sat.html
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=L2pk
    --
    Previously donatelo
    --
    Watch Ishina lie and then try to squirm her way out of it like a worm
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #164 - March 27, 2011, 05:18 PM
    Quote from: Aphrodite on March 27, 2011, 05:09 PM
    Its in abu dawud:

    Book 38, Number 4366:

    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/abudawud/038.sat.html

    I can't find it on that page.
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=L2pk
    --
    Previously donatelo
    --
    Watch Ishina lie and then try to squirm her way out of it like a worm
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #165 - March 27, 2011, 05:24 PM
    Oh, I found it. here's the full hadith:

    Quote
    Book 38, Number 4366:
    Narrated Wa'il ibn Hujr:

    When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her.

    She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.

    She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him).

    When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.

    He (the Prophet) said to her: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. But he told the man some good words (AbuDawud said: meaning the man who was seized), and of the man who had had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.

    He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them.


    This sounds fishy, what's this talk about repentance?
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=L2pk
    --
    Previously donatelo
    --
    Watch Ishina lie and then try to squirm her way out of it like a worm
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #166 - March 27, 2011, 05:31 PM
    Quote
    Book 38, Number 4396:
    Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah:

    A thief was brought to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him). He said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! Then he said: Cut off his hand. So his (right) hand was cut off. He was brought a second time and he said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! Then he said: Cut off his foot.

    So his (left) foot was cut off.

    He was brought a third time and he said: Kill him.

    The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah!

    So he said: Cut off his hand. (So his (left) hand was cut off.)

    He was brought a fourth time and he said: Kill him.

    The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah!

    So he said: Cut off his foot. So his (right) foot was cut off.

    He was brought a fifth time and he said: Kill him.

    So we took him away and killed him. We then dragged him and cast him into a well and threw stones over him.



    How did that poor guy commit theft without hands or feet?
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=L2pk
    --
    Previously donatelo
    --
    Watch Ishina lie and then try to squirm her way out of it like a worm
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #167 - March 27, 2011, 05:38 PM
    .
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #168 - March 27, 2011, 05:38 PM
    Quote from: L2PK on March 27, 2011, 05:24 PM
    Oh, I found it. here's the full hadith:

    This sounds fishy, what's this talk about repentance?


    AH HA:

    Quote
    Book 38, Number 4426:
    Narrated Imran ibn Husayn:

    A woman belonging to the tribe of Juhaynah (according to the version of Aban) came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said that she had committed fornication and that she was pregnant. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) called her guardian.

    Then the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said to him: Be good to her, and when she bears a child, bring her (to me). When she gave birth to the child, he brought her (to him). The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) gave orders regarding her, and her clothes were tied to her. He then commanded regarding her and she was stoned to death. He commanded the people (to pray) and they prayed over her.

    Thereupon Umar said: Are you praying over her, Apostle of Allah, when she has committed fornication?

    He said: By Him in Whose hand my soul is, she has repented to such an extent that if it were divided among the seventy people of Medina, it would have been enough for them all. And what do you find better than the fact that she gave her life.

    Aban did not say in his version: Then her clothes were tied to her.


    Sounds like a mix up, instead of having the rapist stoned it was the woman who was stoned. That would also explain the dumb story about the woman accusing another man of being the rapist.
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=L2pk
    --
    Previously donatelo
    --
    Watch Ishina lie and then try to squirm her way out of it like a worm
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #169 - March 27, 2011, 06:03 PM
    wa alikum assalam bluecake.  It doesn't sem a very fruitful discussion here.  The question was why so many women converts.   The second point which is being repeatedly raised here is does the Quran provide guidance for people to order social relations and spcifically between genders.  And then a third point have muslims in their development of legislation (sharia) elaborated codes which reflect that guidance. 

    In answer to these.  Well the first is presumably because so many find it attractive.

    The second, well clearly Muslims believe it does and impartial assessments of various periods of healthy muslim societies can't fail to acknowledge significant achievements in that regard.  Clearly some here, say no and in a manner similar to muslim extremists with regard to rigidity and lack of depth, quote scripture to justify their positions.

    The third point as to whether the jurists elaboration of sharia has done enough adapt to new conditions and fully realise the guidance of the Quran well humbly we must accept we may not have done.  What legal system is perfect in its particualrs?  Only a naive fundamentalist would imagine you set in place the sharia and the world will run to clockwork.
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #170 - March 27, 2011, 06:08 PM
    Quote from: L2PK on March 27, 2011, 05:38 PM
    AH HA:

    Sounds like a mix up, instead of having the rapist stoned it was the woman who was stoned. That would also explain the dumb story about the woman accusing another man of being the rapist.


    1) Look up the word: fornication
    2) Re -read what you have written
    Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    "That is surely true, it is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth."
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #171 - March 27, 2011, 06:14 PM
    @ Mount a Bison

    Im not saying that Abu Bhakar wasn't a great person - im saying that he wasn't a perfect human  - the quote doesnt endorse wife beating and numerous quotes from the Quran and the prophets sayings say that wife beating is looked down upon.

    Read the second point of the claim 1 regarding spirituality

    With your last point - look at the context by reading the whole paragraph of the light-hearted setting. Plus read the part after which you havent shown where the the prophet then went to aisha personally. If you still cant comprehend the context then this argument ends here. Also the slap is mistranslated for something more of a poke - why? read this: http://ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=484
    Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    "That is surely true, it is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth."
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #172 - March 27, 2011, 06:18 PM
    Quote from: lightrays on March 27, 2011, 06:03 PM
    wa alikum assalam bluecake.  It doesn't sem a very fruitful discussion here.  The question was why so many women converts.   The second point which is being repeatedly raised here is does the Quran provide guidance for people to order social relations and spcifically between genders.  And then a third point have muslims in their development of legislation (sharia) elaborated codes which reflect that guidance.  

    In answer to these.  Well the first is presumably because so many find it attractive.

    The second, well clearly Muslims believe it does and impartial assessments of various periods of healthy muslim societies can't fail to acknowledge significant achievements in that regard.  Clearly some here, say no and in a manner similar to muslim extremists with regard to rigidity and lack of depth, quote scripture to justify their positions.

    The third point as to whether the jurists elaboration of sharia has done enough adapt to new conditions and fully realise the guidance of the Quran well humbly we must accept we may not have done.  What legal system is perfect in its particualrs?  Only a naive fundamentalist would imagine you set in place the sharia and the world will run to clockwork.


    Salaam brother/sister . I know some of the posters are being a bit ignorant/rude (not all)  otherwise this discussion hasnt turned out  fruitful with people attempting to find flaws. I'll been typing quite a lot today Tongue
    Anyway as muslims it is our duty to guide people because well be questioned for it by allah on the Day of Judgement.

    Salaam brother/sister
    Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    "That is surely true, it is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth."
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #173 - March 27, 2011, 06:26 PM
    I answered this question a long time ago:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10466.msg273384#msg273384

    fuck you
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #174 - March 27, 2011, 06:33 PM
    salaam people see you and may the peace and blessings of allah be with you.
    Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    "That is surely true, it is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth."
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #175 - March 27, 2011, 06:37 PM
    Quote from: lightrays on March 27, 2011, 06:03 PM
    quote scripture to justify their positions.

    Would that be the same scripture you found compelling enough to base your life on? Ther same scripture you and your boyfriend are cheerleading and claiming to be the perfect truth of the universe?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #176 - March 27, 2011, 06:48 PM
    This appears too long and boring for me to read unless someone tells me that somewhere in the thread there was a mention of a real study confirming the statement about "unprecedented scale".

    -yours truly,
     illiterate ALM
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #177 - March 27, 2011, 06:48 PM
    Quote from: bluecake on March 27, 2011, 02:50 PM
    1. The quote is reffering to financial transaction  only where it was often men who had made business deals etc. with other people and places. As the woman would not neccessarily be directly involved as a wife she would obviously witness something with the business deals but not as much as the men would.


    (For arguments sake I will accept your definition.) Does that mean it no longer applies as many women now work and carry out financial transactions?

    Quote from: bluecake on March 27, 2011, 02:50 PM
    2. Where does it say that a woman can't be positioned at high authority


    لن يفلح قوم ولوا أمرهم امرأة

    ‘No people shall ever prosper who appoint a woman in charge of their affairs" (Bukhari)

    Quote from: bluecake on March 27, 2011, 02:50 PM
    I've already dealed with that verse in our earlier discussion - where everything I said I agreed with.


    How do you yourself personally 'fee'l about the permission to "tap" one's wife if she behaves badly. Does it sound reasonable to you?
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #178 - March 27, 2011, 06:56 PM
    bluecake

    Hello, and welcome.

    How do you feel if a woman disciplines you? By hitting you? I don't mean in a sexual way. Is that OK, yay or nay? And give me reasons. And I'm totally serious btw.
  • Re: Why women are converting to islam at an unprecedented scale
     Reply #179 - March 27, 2011, 06:57 PM
    .
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