Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?

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Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
OP - April 04, 2011, 12:59 PM

I know lots of people will say: "No! They helped me/others I know" etc...

But I put it to you that one has to be 'receptive' first and then the rational arguments will make sense and things will 'click'.

Just been chatting with some people in RL and I realised it is such a waste of time trying to get them to actually hear what I'm saying because their emotional attachment simply doesn't allow it. Their mind is not 'receptive' to reason or logic. It is firmly shut closed against anything that might even remotely upset their comfort zone.
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Re: Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
Reply #1 - April 04, 2011, 01:10 PM

Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?

A simple answer is no., Any one who says "YES" are nothing more than cunning and they don't want others to grow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj9oB4zpHww

rational or Irrational .. Arguments on human welfare are never Waste of Time..

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Re: Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
Reply #2 - April 04, 2011, 01:14 PM

Quote
Just been chatting with some people in RL and I realised it is such a waste of time trying to get them to actually hear what I'm saying because their emotional attachment simply doesn't allow it.

Are these family members you're chatting with? If so, bear in mind that people will often take seriously an argument presented by an outsider, but if the same argument is presented by a brother or whatever they will poo poo it. Your family remember you back when you were playing Ninja turtles, so they aren't going to suddenly take you seriously as an expert on metaphysics.

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Re: Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
Reply #3 - April 04, 2011, 01:29 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on April 04, 2011, 01:14 PM
Are these family members you're chatting with? If so, bear in mind that people will often take seriously an argument presented by an outsider, but if the same argument is presented by a brother or whatever they will poo poo it. Your family remember you back when you were playing Ninja turtles, so they aren't going to suddenly take you seriously as an expert on metaphysics.

yes they r and thats a fair point but even reading comments on my vids its the same. They just close their ears to all the points i make.
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Re: Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
Reply #4 - April 04, 2011, 01:32 PM

I am studying something very similar to this question right now at the university, but instead of religions OR concepts it is brands and companies. Rational arguments ( attribute based processing for me) isn't a total waste of time because there are times where people do process things rationally and certain people are more inclined than others to think rationally. A lot of the time though people don't think rationally about religion even when talking rationally. They use the rational conversation to form heuristic emotional concepts about what people are talking about and judge on that using emotional processing ( attitude based processing)

Long story short rational arguments aren't bad but when talking to a lot of people even the rational arguments need to be framed in emotional terms because they aren't listening to you rationally they are listening to the attitudes and emotions those arguments invoke.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
Reply #5 - April 04, 2011, 02:05 PM

Quote from: deusvult on April 04, 2011, 01:32 PM

Long story short rational arguments aren't bad but when talking to a lot of people even the rational arguments need to be framed in emotional terms because they aren't listening to you rationally they are listening to the attitudes and emotions those arguments invoke.

This is what I'm talking about.
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Re: Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
Reply #6 - April 04, 2011, 02:37 PM

I'm reminded of the adage; you can't reason someone out of a position they haven't reasoned themselves into.

But on the whole I think your typical keen muslim is immune to reason. I meet and talk to keen muslims (and christians) on a regular basis in an environment of open debate. I'm well practiced in putting Islam and the Koran in the dock in front of muslims, I take them down the path step by step using logic and reason evidence and common sense and every time, to a person the muslim in question will either stubbornly sit down and refuse to move or simply wander off in another direction once they realise where the path of reason leads. I really don't know how to explain to you what happens during a conversation, but from my perspective they just cannot or will not follow an argument against their position. I've tried to use the same method to demonstrate new ideas that don't contradict Islam and it works, they have the capability of following an argument. They can use reason and logic but their brains switch to disabled mode when this method exposes Islam as wrong. I't truely amazing and very frustrating.

I mainly speak to adults in this way, by the time adulthood is reached the mind is all but set, the damage was done during childhood. So the answer to the question I think is that it's much more of a waste of time with adults, it's very important to expose children to rational arguments.

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Re: Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
Reply #7 - April 04, 2011, 03:11 PM

Quote from: Hassan on April 04, 2011, 12:59 PM
I know lots of people will say: "No! They helped me/others I know" etc...

But I put it to you that one has to be 'receptive' first and then the rational arguments will make sense and things will 'click'.

Just been chatting with some people in RL and I realised it is such a waste of time trying to get them to actually hear what I'm saying because their emotional attachment simply doesn't allow it. Their mind is not 'receptive' to reason or logic. It is firmly shut closed against anything that might even remotely upset their comfort zone.

For some, yes. But for many, the arguments will lodge in their mind like a little time-bomb. When time passes, things change, certainites alter, but the argument is there, niggling away, loosening cement holding the walls of their house of faith. I have seen this happen so many times.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Re: Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
Reply #8 - April 04, 2011, 03:14 PM

One thing to bear in mind is that when we are confronted with an uncomfortable truth of any kind, a common initial reaction is denial, then anger, then (eventually) acceptance. No doubt I've missed some stages out there! I don't know what you were arguing about, but whatever it was, maybe in their own time they'll one day get beyond the initial stages of denial (and perhaps face-saving) and think about your reasoning in private when they feel safer letting down their defensive reflex.

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Re: Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
Reply #9 - April 04, 2011, 03:16 PM

I find it really frustrating talking to religious individuals because they don't like to think outside there own comfort zone. They get really snappy and (as no one knows i'm an ex-muslim) they start asking me why i'm doubting and how it's a terrible thing... do i still believe in allah if so then why so many questions... I have come to the conclusion that unless some one is open to reason they are to emotionally or psychologically attached to their views. We are talking about ideals and concepts that have been instilled into the individual over a matter of decades. It saddens me that I don't believe I will ever be able to convince my family to see reason. They are good people on the whole but they will not change their minds no matter what. Though one day i hope to have children and will allow them to be free individuals who think for themselves and are able to rationalise everything. Hassan, How do you feel you being an ex-muslim has effected your children?
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Re: Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
Reply #10 - April 04, 2011, 03:19 PM

The reason why religoinous people are very hard to convince is because they are brainwashed into thinking that choosing an better alternative way of thinking would mean they will turn into bad people etc
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Re: Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
Reply #11 - April 04, 2011, 03:23 PM

Quote from: nj7 on April 04, 2011, 03:14 PM
One thing to bear in mind is that when we are confronted with an uncomfortable truth of any kind, a common initial reaction is denial, then anger, then (eventually) acceptance. No doubt I've missed some stages out there! I don't know what you were arguing about, but whatever it was, maybe in their own time they'll one day get beyond the initial stages of denial (and perhaps face-saving) and think about your reasoning in private when they feel safer letting down their defensive reflex.

Yep, this is how I see it. Although I must admit that during that time of denial my patience is limited after a certain point.

Then again I know I do this, I feel all 3 stages, some I feel stuck in stage 1 still. Stage 1 often takes time to move beyond. But eventually I know I will get there.

Maybe the arguments against Islam simply highlighted a position I had already subconciously reasoned myself into, and the arguments gave me what I needed to make that a waking reality I was prepared to accept. There was a time in my life though, in which I am sure even I would have reacted negatively to the truth of things when it came to Islam.

I still react negatively sometimes to truths I find difficult to deal with, its a process of learning to let go and it takes awhile.

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Re: Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
Reply #12 - April 04, 2011, 03:24 PM

my parents always talk about how doing this and doing that will bring shame on the family or other people in our social circle will see it as a bad thing... such a common thing in asian families... and i'm talking about trivial stuff so imagine how they would feel over something as big as questioning islam
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Re: Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
Reply #13 - April 04, 2011, 03:25 PM

Quote from: billy on April 04, 2011, 03:11 PM
For some, yes. But for many, the arguments will lodge in their mind like a little time-bomb. When time passes, things change, certainites alter, but the argument is there, niggling away, loosening cement holding the walls of their house of faith. I have seen this happen so many times.

yeah, like what happened to poor Abu. hassan is the one who planted all these bombs in the head of the poor lad.

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Re: Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
Reply #14 - April 04, 2011, 03:26 PM

Watch out yourself, debunker

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Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
Reply #15 - April 04, 2011, 06:08 PM

I personally find emotional appeals work far better with religious people than dialectics. It's too easy to fool yourself with a little bit of word play.
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Re: Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
Reply #16 - April 04, 2011, 08:03 PM

I think Hitchens approach to arguing is best

"The world I live in is one where I have five quarrels a day, each with someone who really takes me on over something; and if I can't get into an argument, I go looking for one, to make sure I trust my own arguments, to hone them. I would often rather have an argument or a quarrel than be bored, and because I hate to lose an argument, I am often willing to protract one for its own sake rather than concede even a small point."
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Re: Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
Reply #17 - April 04, 2011, 08:24 PM

Quote from: Ishina on April 04, 2011, 08:03 PM
Even if you get nowhere with others, you can still benifit by gaining more clarity yourself.

I like that.
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Re: Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
Reply #18 - April 04, 2011, 08:58 PM

Horses for courses, is what I would say. For some people you need the Christopher Hitchens style of debate, whereas for others you need a more reasonable (but confident) style - like AC Grayling, for instance.

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Re: Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
Reply #19 - April 04, 2011, 09:26 PM

And what about appeal to people's emotion? Show them where you're coming from? Allay their fears? Show them you are human and you understand and empathise?

Appeals to emotion are not always a bad thing.
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Re: Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
Reply #20 - April 04, 2011, 09:30 PM

Quote from: Hassan on April 04, 2011, 09:26 PM
And what about appeal to people's emotion? Show them where you're coming from? Allay their fears? Show them you are human and you understand and empathise?

Appeals to emotion are not always a bad thing.

I agree, I'm an emotional person, I prefer to tackle the emotional side to an argument, but many people don't respond to emotionally driven arguments, or empathy, or reaching out and showing them you are human and understand, because they don't need that.

They need rational arguments only, not that emotions can't be rational, but they specifically can not be reached this way.

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Re: Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
Reply #21 - April 04, 2011, 09:50 PM

Quote from: Hassan on April 04, 2011, 09:26 PM
And what about appeal to people's emotion? Show them where you're coming from? Allay their fears? Show them you are human and you understand and empathise?

Appeals to emotion are not always a bad thing.

I might be misunderstanding you but I find that appealing to people's emotion can sometimes come across as a sign of weakness and hence lack of confidence in your worldview. Whenever I debate with Muslims I always try to sound very confident in my worldview (even though I know that every good scientist must try to be open-minded and not dogmatic). Also, never sound like you're begging them for mercy or empathy.

See law 13 of Robert Greene's great book: http://robertgreene.net/the-48-laws-of-power.html

Quote
Law 13 When Asking for Help, Appeal to Peoples Self-Interest, Never to their Mercy or Gratitude

If you need to turn to an ally for help, do not bother to remind him of your past assistance and good deeds. He will find a way to ignore you. Instead, uncover something in your request, or in your alliance with him, that will benefit him, and emphasize it out of all proportion. He will respond enthusiastically when he sees something to be gained for himself.

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Re: Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
Reply #22 - April 04, 2011, 09:58 PM

Quote from: ateapotist on April 04, 2011, 09:50 PM
I might be misunderstanding you but I find that appealing to people's emotion can sometimes come across as a sign of weakness and hence lack of confidence in your worldview. Whenever I debate with Muslims I always try to sound very confident in my worldview (even though I know that every good scientist must try to be open-minded and not dogmatic). Also, never sound like you're begging them for mercy or empathy.

See law 13 of Robert Greene's great book: http://robertgreene.net/the-48-laws-of-power.html

Not empathy or mercy for me, but for instance, am I not appealing to emotion when I argue why raping captives was wrong?

Is there a non emotional reason that shows it's not wrong? Aren't right or wrong on rape linked closely to emotional arguments as to why it's wrong? why is it wrong?

I feel when I argue against rape of captives, it is considered an emotional appeal, because I can not provide an alternative other than an appeal to their empathy.

Human rights is not exactly a right, more like privileges born of emotion, empathy and ?

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Re: Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
Reply #23 - April 04, 2011, 10:20 PM

As I see it, you can argue your way out of pretty much any dialectical hole, a lot of religious debate is so vague that it's not hard to convince yourself of either side of the argument, but an emotional appeal is harder to ignore, I think we've all shocked ourselves when trying to justify such things, your inner humanity just screams in protest - adopting the opposing view then, is a simple step. Once you want to.
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Reply #24 - April 04, 2011, 11:20 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on April 04, 2011, 09:30 PM
I agree, I'm an emotional person, I prefer to tackle the emotional side to an argument, but many people don't respond to emotionally driven arguments, or empathy, or reaching out and showing them you are human and understand, because they don't need that.

They need rational arguments only, not that emotions can't be rational, but they specifically can not be reached this way.

True. I'm an emotional person and a rational person and so my arguments (and vids) usually mix the two.
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Reply #25 - April 04, 2011, 11:22 PM

Quote from: ateapotist on April 04, 2011, 09:50 PM
I might be misunderstanding you but I find that appealing to people's emotion can sometimes come across as a sign of weakness and hence lack of confidence in your worldview. Whenever I debate with Muslims I always try to sound very confident in my worldview (even though I know that every good scientist must try to be open-minded and not dogmatic). Also, never sound like you're begging them for mercy or empathy.

See law 13 of Robert Greene's great book: http://robertgreene.net/the-48-laws-of-power.html

You are misunderstanding me. I mean you need to break through the barrier by reaching their emotional side. Getting them to relax and feel safe and identify to some extent so their defence is lowered and they can listen to the rational arguments. That of course can only be done genuinely - not forced.
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Reply #26 - April 05, 2011, 12:05 AM

Ah, yes. I definitely went off on a tangent there.

I agree with your post above. In fact, I sometimes think in terms of immunity and the God virus. Religion is like a virus in the form of ideas which infects people and builds immunity against any opposing ideas to varying degrees. For example I was immune against atheism but wasn't immune against science, so science was the loophole to breach my viruses defences. Similarly as Prince Spinoza and BerberElla have said, universal human rights are often a way to get through people's religious defences. Except with Muslims like Anjem Choudary who are utterly immune to even the most blatant rights/wrongs.

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Re: Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
Reply #27 - April 05, 2011, 12:40 AM

.

You need to read this book.
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Reply #28 - April 05, 2011, 12:48 PM

Case in point (about rational arguments being a waste of breath). I made a lot of effort to make a very reasonable, fair, balanced and straightforward video pointing out that there no undeniable evidence to conclude that the Qur'an comes from a supernatural source. It really is pretty self-evident.

Every Muslim who has commented has shown that they were unable to actually take in anything I was saying - what they heard was not what was being said, but evil lies, twisting, and distortion from the mouth of Satan himself.

e.g. latest comment:

anisdalger 6 hours ago

Bizarre?! The narrator deformed some facts

1/ Why he is talking about Sirius-B that the polytheists didn’t worshipped? The verse talks about a false-god, an impressive star called “Sirius”, saying to them that God is The Lord of your false-god! He is The Lord of the entire universe!

“That He is the Lord of Sirius (the Mighty Star);‎ (53:49)” (Sirius-B recently discovered is too smaller and could have any another name!).

2/ The narrator didn’t use the rights verses explaining the human embryology in The Quran: From 23-12 to 22-14

Why?

3/ Iron sent down to earth from space. This scientific fact is perfectly related in The Quran! Why the narrator talks about “cloths” ?

"O ye Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness,- that is the best. Such are among the Signs of Allah, that they may receive admonition!‎ (7:26)"

The Iron is related in a Chapter itself called : Sourate el-hadid (IRON Chapter) "We sent aforetime our messengers with Clear Signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance, that men may stand forth in justice; and We SENT DOWN IRON, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind, that Allah may test who it is that will help, Unseen, Him and His messengers: For Allah is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might (and able to enforce His Will).‎ (57:25)"

By the way, (if we count the first verse “In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.‎" (1.1) wich is a verse) the verse of IRON is number 26 which is exactly the Atomic Number of IRON in the periodic table of the elements!
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Re: Are Rational Arguments Just a Waste of Time?
Reply #29 - April 05, 2011, 01:21 PM

Tried numerous times with my mom and dad. The more I talk with them, the more apparent it appears that they are avoiding my points from getting through to them.
I sometimes hear them and other muslims say "I am keeping an open mind, you're the one who's not" and I just facepalm inside.
These muslims won't be open unless they allow themselves to, even if they claim to be open.

Hassan, another big reason is how much these people can spend time reflecting and reviewing the faith they believe in. My dad works a lot, takes a nap after he comes home, has to help my mom and the kids, has my grandparents and other relatives to spend time with, has other business in Canada that he has to deal with, and sometimes he has to go back to work again at night. So I can understand him when he says "I'm not going to keep on arguing about this any longer"

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