Burn or not Burn the Quran?

12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
- L2PK
- function makeEpic(Post) { return Post.addMeme('COOL STORY BRO'); }
- Restricted
- offline
Burn or not Burn the Quran?
OP - April 04, 2011, 08:08 PM

What does everyone think, and why?

Personally I think that yes, it should be burnt to defend freedom of speech, and also to send a message to radicals that the modern world isn't compatible with the radical teachings of Islam.

This video has the best commentary on this topic, its also from an ex muslim:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuvBWW1qaaA

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=L2pk
--
Previously donatelo
--
Watch Ishina lie and then try to squirm her way out of it like a worm
- billy
- Pub Regular
- Tripitaka ~ Closet Juice
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #1 - April 04, 2011, 08:21 PM

Some subjects are rewarded by polls, this isn't one of them.

The Quran should not be burned, it should be opened up, dissected, scrutinised, confronted, criticised without reservation or inhibition, ridiculed, mocked, and shown up for what it is. Any book that has claims made for it along the lines that Muslims make for the Quran, that it is the literal word of God, that it is the eternal letter of the law for organising and regulating all human life individually and collectively, to which all must submit, whilst containing so much stupidity, facileness, nonsense, hatefulness, bigotry and idiocy, should never be subjected to a stunt like burning, which is redolent of inquisition and fascism.

That is the morons thing to do. What needs to be burnt (METAPHORICALLY) is the fear that is felt by non Muslims towards ridiculing the bullshit of the Quran, criticising its stupidity and hatefulness, laughing at its totalising truth claims, and all in all, rendering it castrated and impotent through rational logical scrutiny and enquiry.

When that happens, the Quran will start to lose all power, because the death taboo against criticising it, and the reverence it demands even of non believers is instantly destroyed. That will do more to destroy the laughable claims made for this stone age bedouin war manual and penal code than any burning stunt by anyone.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
- billy
- Pub Regular
- Tripitaka ~ Closet Juice
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #2 - April 04, 2011, 08:26 PM

Now, that is what should happen, but because of the death / murder / 'Islamophobia' slander taboos against criticism that Islam preserves, there is still a long way to go until we can have full and frank public expression confrontation of the Quran. Slowly slowly it is being overcome, however, in particular because of the anonymity that new communication technologies with the internet, we are suddenly able to circumvent the death taboos of Islam and talk freely about the Quran, and begin to disseminate the message of criticism of this tract that way.

Having said that, morons like the pastor should not be prosecuted for his act. He should be vilified and criticised for it, confronted and ridiculed and argued with, but not criminally prosecuted.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
- billy
- Pub Regular
- Tripitaka ~ Closet Juice
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #3 - April 04, 2011, 08:38 PM

Remember one thing - the Quran makes claims for itself that no other book in the world makes (or rather, has claims made for it by its disciples that no other book in the world has made for it) - that it is the literal, direct, unexpurgated WORD of God, that it is the sole, highest regulating authority for mankind, that it contains all that is nessecary to know, that it directs all human life and action and thought, that the world should be turned into the image of its laws, that it creates the power structures that should govern all societies, that it inteferes directly in the lives of individuals, women and men, and that all of humanity should submit to it, and that it is the source for the legitimacy of all efforts of prosletysation to make all of humanity submit to it.

These are unique claims, and so more than any other book in the world, it requires refutation, scrutiny, criticism, satire, confrontation, ridicule and mockery. It makes totalising truth claims like no other book does, it demands obeisance from all, it therefore seeks power without scrutiny.

Anything that is presented and protected from being criticised upon pain of death requires immediate scrutiny, and that is what should be done. The Quran deserves to be treated with intense scepticism, intellectual rational criticism, and contempt should be rained upon it when its sinister truth claims and power are presented. Debunk the Quran and Islam is castrated. That is what needs to be done in our modern age.

In the face of the moral annihilation and destruction the Quran would face as a divinely ordained source of power when all inhibitions to scrutiny are negated through criticism of it by the free intellect and free conscience, burning copies of it becomes not just a moronic thing to do, but a very feeble, small thing too, dwarfed by the immensity of consequences when the Quran is made impotent and castrated by the conscience and repudiation of free men and free women.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
- BerberElla
- Class A'sexual
- Creator Goddess
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #4 - April 04, 2011, 09:48 PM

I don't think any book should be burned, just looked at in its proper context.

I understand though why some people feel a desire to do it, not just haters (EDL et al) but regular people who think doing it shows an independence that isn't to be messed with, but ultimately it breaks no taboo. Muslims will react as if this is a violation and a call to war, they won't think "Oh noes, they burnt my quran, clearly allah is false", so what it really achieves in the long run is nothing.

More focus, more media, more debates, more people becoming aware, more people choosing a side in the book burning debate. Maybe that is in itself the good thing that comes of it, but the idea of burning books as if that is all it takes to stamp out an ideal. That I don't really agree with so aside from using my quran as a doorstop (no matter how many times my bro picks it up and puts it carefully elsewhere, I find it and doorstop it) I won't be using it to help burn autumn leaves.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
- L2PK
- function makeEpic(Post) { return Post.addMeme('COOL STORY BRO'); }
- Restricted
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #5 - April 04, 2011, 09:57 PM

I don't think its being burnt in a 'i refuse to read this, lets censor it by burning it' way though, its being burnt in a 'we have freedom of speech and freedom of expression, lets take a stand to protect that freedom' way.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=L2pk
--
Previously donatelo
--
Watch Ishina lie and then try to squirm her way out of it like a worm
- Air
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #6 - April 05, 2011, 02:08 AM

No. As far as I'm concerned, every burned Quran represents a lost opportunity for rational discussion.

You need to read this book.
- Aphrodite
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #7 - April 05, 2011, 02:16 AM

Book burning isn't compatible with the modern world

Quote from: L2PK on April 04, 2011, 09:57 PM
I don't think its being burnt in a 'i refuse to read this, lets censor it by burning it' way though, its being burnt in a 'we have freedom of speech and freedom of expression, lets take a stand to protect that freedom' way.

And how does burning the Quran (totally allowed in Islam btw) "stand to protect that freedom"
- L2PK
- function makeEpic(Post) { return Post.addMeme('COOL STORY BRO'); }
- Restricted
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #8 - April 05, 2011, 02:43 AM

Because you can't criticize islam without fearing for your life. Hence we'll start to slowly lose our freedom of speech if we allow that to happen

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=L2pk
--
Previously donatelo
--
Watch Ishina lie and then try to squirm her way out of it like a worm
- Prince Spinoza
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #9 - April 05, 2011, 02:45 AM

We can't criticise islam => let's burn the qur'an. I think a step is missing.
- Aphrodite
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #10 - April 05, 2011, 02:47 AM

Quote from: L2PK on April 05, 2011, 02:43 AM
Because you can't criticize islam without fearing for your life. Hence we'll start to slowly lose our freedom of speech if we allow that to happen

How is burning the Quran criticising Islam?
- L2PK
- function makeEpic(Post) { return Post.addMeme('COOL STORY BRO'); }
- Restricted
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #11 - April 05, 2011, 02:49 AM

The best defense is a good offense.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=L2pk
--
Previously donatelo
--
Watch Ishina lie and then try to squirm her way out of it like a worm
- Prince Spinoza
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #12 - April 05, 2011, 02:50 AM

Is that from a mighty ducks movie?
- L2PK
- function makeEpic(Post) { return Post.addMeme('COOL STORY BRO'); }
- Restricted
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #13 - April 05, 2011, 02:54 AM

Right now there's a big dramatic situation all over the world because of this quran burning. But lets say, if rather than backing down, people all over the world burnt the quran more readily in response. What would that do? Yes, there would be more riots etc at first, but eventually, over the course of 5-10-15-20 years, eventually the muslim world would probably have to come to terms with the fact that Islam is as open to criticism as everything else. And then, the taboo of criticizing/discussing Islam publicly would eventually break away.

What's the alternative over 15-20 years, if people back down to these protests instead? The radicals will demand more and more, and the freedom of speech might slip away even more.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=L2pk
--
Previously donatelo
--
Watch Ishina lie and then try to squirm her way out of it like a worm
- Aphrodite
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #14 - April 05, 2011, 02:58 AM

Quote
eventually the muslim world would probably have to come to terms with the fact that Islam is as open to criticism as everything else. And then, the taboo of criticizing/discussing Islam publicly would eventually break away.

I'll ask again. How is burning the Quran criticising Islam? Are you debunking the nonsense in there? Proving Allah isn't real? Or acting like a moron from the dark ages who burnt literature he didn't like?
- L2PK
- function makeEpic(Post) { return Post.addMeme('COOL STORY BRO'); }
- Restricted
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #15 - April 05, 2011, 02:59 AM

Quote from: Aphrodite on April 05, 2011, 02:58 AM
I'll ask again. How is burning the Quran criticising Islam? Are you debunking the nonsense in there? Proving Allah isn't real? Or acting like a moron from the dark ages who burnt literature he didn't like?

Its not directly criticizing Islam, but it could be paving the way for such criticism to be done more safely and more commonly in future.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=L2pk
--
Previously donatelo
--
Watch Ishina lie and then try to squirm her way out of it like a worm
- Prince Spinoza
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #16 - April 05, 2011, 03:00 AM

And then after 20 years we will be able to burn the qur'an in peace...

Yeah I think if you want to fight for freedom of speech... then speak. I don't know how burning books fits in.
- L2PK
- function makeEpic(Post) { return Post.addMeme('COOL STORY BRO'); }
- Restricted
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #17 - April 05, 2011, 03:02 AM

Plus, the quran does contain a lot of violent, misogynyst, anti homosexual, and anti semetic verses, things that don't have any place in modern world. Burning it could be seen as sending a signal that those things aren't welcome in the 21st century (at least to the educated, western born muslims).

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=L2pk
--
Previously donatelo
--
Watch Ishina lie and then try to squirm her way out of it like a worm
- L2PK
- function makeEpic(Post) { return Post.addMeme('COOL STORY BRO'); }
- Restricted
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #18 - April 05, 2011, 03:02 AM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on April 05, 2011, 03:00 AM
And then after 20 years we will be able to burn the qur'an in peace...

Yeah I think if you want to fight for freedom of speech... then speak. I don't know how burning books fits in.

I think I've already explained how. However, I don't see the big deal about burning a book either. Yes, you should be able to burn a book without fearing for your life.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=L2pk
--
Previously donatelo
--
Watch Ishina lie and then try to squirm her way out of it like a worm
- Aphrodite
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #19 - April 05, 2011, 03:05 AM

Quote from: L2PK on April 05, 2011, 02:59 AM
Its not directly criticizing Islam, but it could be paving the way for such criticism to be done more safely and more commonly in future.

If its not criticism then what is it? Idiocy. You can criticise Islam safely in a lot of countries and I think you'll find that if you do it sincerely there are some muslims out there willing to listen and eventually question Islam for themselves.
- L2PK
- function makeEpic(Post) { return Post.addMeme('COOL STORY BRO'); }
- Restricted
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #20 - April 05, 2011, 03:10 AM

I want people to be able to do it any way they want to. Whether its making jokes about the absurdities in it, having a naked woman doing the namaz and reading the misogynist verses in it, pointing out Mo's pedophilia, etc. That's all a part of the freedom of speech. Christianity and every other religion/idealogy can be made fun of in all those ways safely, even atheism.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=L2pk
--
Previously donatelo
--
Watch Ishina lie and then try to squirm her way out of it like a worm
- Prince Spinoza
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #21 - April 05, 2011, 03:14 AM

You want people to not be offended that you burnt their holy book? Good luck with that.
- Aphrodite
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #22 - April 05, 2011, 03:14 AM

Quote from: L2PK on April 05, 2011, 03:10 AM
I want people to be able to do it any way they want to. Whether its making jokes about the absurdities in it, having a naked woman doing the namaz and reading the misogynist verses in it, pointing out Mo's pedophilia, etc. That's all a part of the freedom of speech. Christianity and every other religion/idealogy can be made fun of in all those ways safely, even atheism.

WTF does ANY of that have to do with a burning the Quran?
- Prince Spinoza
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #23 - April 05, 2011, 03:17 AM

Ahmed: See ali, I told you these westerners are full of hate

Ali: Yeah Rasoolullah warned us about these people.

Ahmed: They know Islam is right and they can't accept that so they are so hateful.

Ali: Mashallah we are definitely on the right path.
- L2PK
- function makeEpic(Post) { return Post.addMeme('COOL STORY BRO'); }
- Restricted
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #24 - April 05, 2011, 03:21 AM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on April 05, 2011, 03:14 AM
You want people to not be offended that you burnt their holy book? Good luck with that.

Be offended as much as you like, but don't threaten to kill someone over it, or you're trampling over the freedom of speech in that country.

Quote from: Aphrodite on April 05, 2011, 03:14 AM
WTF does ANY of that have to do with a burning the Quran?

As I said, it paves the way for those things to happen safely in the future. Its taking a stand and not backing down to the pressure/riots from the religious fundamentalists. If things like this continue to happen, it could one day become safe to criticize/discuss Islam.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=L2pk
--
Previously donatelo
--
Watch Ishina lie and then try to squirm her way out of it like a worm
- L2PK
- function makeEpic(Post) { return Post.addMeme('COOL STORY BRO'); }
- Restricted
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #25 - April 05, 2011, 03:23 AM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on April 05, 2011, 03:17 AM
Ahmed: See ali, I told you these westerners are full of hate

Ali: Yeah Rasoolullah warned us about these people.

Ahmed: They know Islam is right and they can't accept that so they are so hateful.

Ali: Mashallah we are definitely on the right path.

Or, as has happened for many people even on these forums, some muslims will wonder exactly what they dislike about the quran and decide to investigate their religion. The dutch cartoons definitely played a part in my own researching of the life of Mo.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=L2pk
--
Previously donatelo
--
Watch Ishina lie and then try to squirm her way out of it like a worm
- Prince Spinoza
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #26 - April 05, 2011, 03:23 AM

Quote from: L2PK on April 05, 2011, 03:21 AM
Be offended as much as you like, but don't threaten to kill someone over it, or you're trampling over the freedom of speech in that country.

Yeah just kill someone in another country.

Quote
As I said, it paves the way for those things to happen safely in the future. Its taking a stand and not backing down to the pressure/riots from the religious fundamentalists. If things like this continue to happen, it could one day become safe to criticize/discuss Islam.

Burn books you mean.
- Prince Spinoza
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #27 - April 05, 2011, 03:26 AM

Qur'an aside for a moment, I would never burn a book. It's a petty thing to do.
- Alex Lam Meem
- Restricted
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #28 - April 05, 2011, 03:31 AM

I thought Allah protected the Koran from fire? Anyway, burning a book may not be environmentally friendly I think. So, I say no. Then again it gets Muslims so excited that I am tempted to say yes. Then again I don't think it is a Muslim thing to get so worked up about the barbeque, I think it's more of a retard thing. So when we consider Muslims' violent reactions to this it should always be specified as retarded Muslims' reactions to show respect for the rest of the Muslims.

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
- L2PK
- function makeEpic(Post) { return Post.addMeme('COOL STORY BRO'); }
- Restricted
- offline
Re: Burn or not Burn the Quran?
Reply #29 - April 05, 2011, 03:56 AM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on April 05, 2011, 03:23 AM
Yeah just kill someone in another country.

No, don't kill anyone anywhere.

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on April 05, 2011, 03:23 AM

Burn books you mean.

Yea, burn books,break idols, break crucifixes, etc. If a copy of Origin of Species or Bible or Harry Potter can be burnt without getting death threats, so should be the quran.

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on April 05, 2011, 03:26 AM
Qur'an aside for a moment, I would never burn a book. It's a petty thing to do.

Its just a political statement to say 'we don't accept many of the things in this book in our country/time/culture'.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=L2pk
--
Previously donatelo
--
Watch Ishina lie and then try to squirm her way out of it like a worm
12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »