Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.

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Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
OP - April 09, 2011, 03:04 AM

Quote
For reasons of animal welfare, parliament in the Netherlands is considering a ban on ritual slaughter without the prior use of anaesthetics.

Although still early days, a bill in Dutch Parliament put up by the Animal Party, banning ritual slaughter is likely to get a majority when being put up for a vote.

Anaesthesising prior to slaughter is mandatory in the Netherlands. An exception, however, is made for halal (Muslim) and kosher (Jewish) slaughtering, as in these cases the animals for religious reasons may not be anaesthesised prior to slaughter.

This would involve poultry, sheep, goat and beef slaughterings as pork is not considered halal or kosher.

Some scientists and veterinarians claim that animals slaughtered without prior anaesthetisising will suffer from additional stress and pain.

In case the practice will be banned, it is expected that this specialised slaughtering business may have to be relocated to neighbouring countries.

In a reaction, the Dutch liberal party (VVD) pointed out that a bill like this is a too strong infliction on liberty of religion. It is unclear when there will be a vote on the matter.

I know many of you support halal or kosher slaughter, but what we're talking about here is applying the same standard and rule of law to everything.

More specifically, how proper humane methods of killing animals such as using anesthetics is actually ignored on the grounds of respect for ritual / religious reasons.

I support this ban, only because I think there should be one rule for all, and if animal rights laws on the treatment of animals can be disregarded to satisfy people's superstitious beliefs then how valid or important is that law in the first place? The welfare of animals, yes, but also the bending of laws that apply to everyone to accommodate religious groups is just ridiculous, no one should be above the law.

Interestingly,

Quote
Most Dutch favour a ban. The procedures are already banned in New Zealand, Scandinavian and Baltic countries and Switzerland.
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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #1 - April 09, 2011, 03:08 AM

Fuck animal rights.

fuck you
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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #2 - April 09, 2011, 03:11 AM

Scientists need to ascertain what the most pain free, humane method of animal slaughter is and that should be the ONLY method used to slaughtr animals.

.
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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #3 - April 09, 2011, 03:18 AM

Whatever. There are many ways to slaughter animals. I would accept some regulations on large corporate entities, but the idea the state should be telling a farmer whether he should wring the neck of a chicken, chop its head off, or lock it in the garage underneath the exhaust of a running Monte Carlo is dumbass nanny state bullshit.

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #4 - April 09, 2011, 04:46 AM

Olivier Roy talks to Eren Gvercin about issues central to the debate about Islam in Europe, from revolutionary milleniarism to Muslim Luthenarianism.
Eren Güvercin: The Swiss majority voted for a ban on minarets; France and Belgium are deep in debate about banning headscarves. In Germany, too, the debate about Islam often verges on hysteria. Why are Europeans so preoccupied with religious symbols and "foreign" religions?

Olivier Roy: The debate in Europe has shifted in the past 25 years from immigration to the visible symbols of Islam. Which means that even people who oppose immigration now acknowledge that the second and third generations of migrants are here to stay and that Islam has put down roots in Europe. And the debate has made a peculiar shift: while the anti-immigration position used to be associated primarily with the conservative right, Islam is now under attack from both left and right, but for very different reasons. The right believes that Europe is Christian and that Islam should be tolerated, but as an inferior religion. While the constitutional principle of freedom of religion prevents it from banning Islam, it takes every opportunity to limit its visibility; the European Court of Human Rights, for example, did not step in to stop France banning the headscarf in schools.

The left argues for secularism, women's rights and against fundamentalism: it opposes the veil not so much because it is Islamic but because it seems to contradict women's rights. So, as we see, behind the Islam debate is a far more complicated issue: the question of European identity, and the role of religion in Europe. Although the left and right take very different stances on these issues, we are seeing the rise of new populist movements (such as Geert Wilders' Party for Freedom in the Netherlands) which combine the two approaches, essentially siding with the right but using the arguments of the left.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #5 - April 09, 2011, 10:08 AM

Quote from: Q-Man on April 09, 2011, 03:18 AM
Whatever. There are many ways to slaughter animals. I would accept some regulations on large corporate entities, but the idea the state should be telling a farmer whether he should wring the neck of a chicken, chop its head off, or lock it in the garage underneath the exhaust of a running Monte Carlo is dumbass nanny state bullshit.

Yeah, but it's pretty obvious that slashing its throat and letting it bleed to death is worse than any of those other three options. Since halal slaughter involves slashing the throat it's a bit of a no brainer innit.

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #6 - April 09, 2011, 10:23 AM

Quote from: Q-Man on April 09, 2011, 03:08 AM
Fuck animal rights.

a very simplistic & stupid statement to make.

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #7 - April 09, 2011, 11:10 AM

Should there be a law for the way lions slaughter other animals?

I agree food is food no matter how you slaughter it but it makes no difference and who cares if a animal feels pain or not.

At the end of the day, the animal is a resource and will be eaten.

Superstitious beliefs are irrelevent in this case. Animal rights suck, they are a waste of time,
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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #8 - April 09, 2011, 11:18 AM

A lion does not have the moral capabilities that we have, you can't teach it to humanely kill animals so that's a completely stupid comparison. This is the great thing about us humans, we have the moral capabilities to know better, which makes it all the more sad that you're justifying cruel and unnecessary pain. It seems some of us have the moral capabilities, at least.

What do you mean "who cares"? Quite a lot of people, the majority of the Dutch people apparently.

Animal rights suck? You're granting more respect to superstitious beliefs, I'd call them a waste of time, would you not? Seems like a primitive way of thinking, to disregard our understanding of humane treatment of animals, to disregard a law that applies to everyone, and to give credit to religious groups who believe they are above the law and can justify their superstitious garbage to kill their animals in the most painful way.

Furthermore, do you advocate the bending or breaking of a countries laws that apply to everyone on the basis of not offending religious groups? Do you not support one law for all?
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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #9 - April 09, 2011, 11:21 AM

I wish the UK would adopt similar legislation. Slaughter without pre-stunning is a barbaric practice that has no place in modern society.
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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #10 - April 09, 2011, 11:32 AM

Quote from: Q-Man on April 09, 2011, 03:08 AM
Fuck animal rights.

i agree, lets kill this animal.

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #11 - April 09, 2011, 11:33 AM

Cheers for Netherlands, common sense and compassion prevails

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #12 - April 09, 2011, 11:55 AM

Quote from: Q-Man on April 09, 2011, 03:18 AM
Whatever. There are many ways to slaughter animals. I would accept some regulations on large corporate entities, but the idea the state should be telling a farmer whether he should wring the neck of a chicken, chop its head off, or lock it in the garage underneath the exhaust of a running Monte Carlo is dumbass nanny state bullshit.

+1
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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #13 - April 09, 2011, 12:16 PM

Quote from: IsLame on April 09, 2011, 10:23 AM
a very simplistic & stupid statement to make.

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #14 - April 09, 2011, 01:39 PM

After watching a stun vs halal method, it seems like the stun method is less painful, but that is just by appearance.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #15 - April 09, 2011, 03:35 PM

Surely more finance should be brought into synthetically created meat and bypass the entire issue.
Its not like the technology doesn't exist (although, obviously needs work beyond it's present capabilities)
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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #16 - April 09, 2011, 03:40 PM

Quote from: Shahid Raza on April 09, 2011, 03:11 AM
Scientists need to ascertain what the most pain free, humane method of animal slaughter is and that should be the ONLY method used to slaughtr animals.

+1

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #17 - April 09, 2011, 03:41 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on April 09, 2011, 10:08 AM
Yeah, but it's pretty obvious that slashing its throat and letting it bleed to death is worse than any of those other three options. Since halal slaughter involves slashing the throat it's a bit of a no brainer innit.

+2

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #18 - April 09, 2011, 03:46 PM

Quote from: IsLame on April 09, 2011, 10:23 AM
a very simplistic & stupid statement to make.

+2

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #19 - April 09, 2011, 03:53 PM

Quote from: Ephemeral on April 09, 2011, 03:46 PM
+2

x 2

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #20 - April 09, 2011, 03:57 PM

=4

Yeah I can do basic maths.
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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #21 - April 09, 2011, 04:02 PM

What exactly is the reason why kosher-ists and halal-ists are opposed to stunning? Is it because it prevents or inhibits draining of the blood or something like that, or is it just because they want the animal to be alive so it can hear the Hebrew or Arabic being muttered in its face?

I can understand why slaughtering laws arose in ancient times when meat needed to be prepared healthily in a certain way, the same reason why pork is not allowed I suppose, it went rancid quickly so was a health risk before refrigeration or earlier advancements in preserving. Nowadays, it seems to be tied in with religious identity in a way that says if you create an 'in' group that has its own dietary laws, it distances the believer from 'the other', creates a sense of otherness and togetherness against the non believer.

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #22 - April 09, 2011, 04:10 PM

Go Netherlands

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #23 - April 09, 2011, 04:16 PM

Quote from: deusvult on April 09, 2011, 04:46 AM
Olivier Roy talks to Eren Gvercin about issues central to the debate about Islam in Europe, from revolutionary milleniarism to Muslim Luthenarianism.
Eren Güvercin: The Swiss majority voted for a ban on minarets; France and Belgium are deep in debate about banning headscarves. In Germany, too, the debate about Islam often verges on hysteria. Why are Europeans so preoccupied with religious symbols and "foreign" religions?

The implication being that the main concern of the proposed Dutch law are not really issues that have to do with animal welfare but concerns regarding the imposition of some bizarre dietary laws?

Quote from: billy on April 09, 2011, 04:02 PM
What exactly is the reason why kosher-ists and halal-ists are opposed to stunning? Is it because it prevents or inhibits draining of the blood or something like that, or is it just because they want the animal to be alive so it can hear the Hebrew or Arabic being muttered in its face?

Imo the reason is purely ideological.

Quote from: billy on April 09, 2011, 04:02 PM
... the same reason why pork is not allowed I suppose, it went rancid quickly so was a health risk before refrigeration ...

Isn't pork haram because of cannibalism?
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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #24 - April 09, 2011, 04:44 PM

Quote from: Kenan on April 09, 2011, 04:16 PM
Isn't pork haram because of cannibalism?

Thats Hitchens perspective, but...meh, not really justified or probable enough to be the actual answer.
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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #25 - April 09, 2011, 05:10 PM

Quote from: mighty_cats on April 09, 2011, 04:44 PM
Thats Hitchens perspective, but...meh, not really justified or probable enough to be the actual answer.

What is the answer then? Parasites (like Trichinellosis) don't make much sense either.
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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #26 - April 09, 2011, 05:12 PM

Quote from: IsLame on April 09, 2011, 10:23 AM
a very simplistic & stupid statement to make.

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on April 09, 2011, 12:16 PM
^+1

Quote from: Ephemeral on April 09, 2011, 03:46 PM
+2

Quote from: HighOctane on April 09, 2011, 03:53 PM
x 2

Quote from: osmanthus on April 09, 2011, 10:08 AM
Yeah, but it's pretty obvious that slashing its throat and letting it bleed to death is worse than any of those other three options. Since halal slaughter involves slashing the throat it's a bit of a no brainer innit.

That's not obvious to me. Can you demonstrate unconsciousness is more rapid in decapitation than rapid exsanguination?

Quote from: Unechance on April 09, 2011, 11:18 AM
A lion does not have the moral capabilities that we have, you can't teach it to humanely kill animals so that's a completely stupid comparison.

Where did I make this comparison?

Quote
This is the great thing about us humans, we have the moral capabilities to know better,

It is? I thought the great thing about us humans is that we can make porn.

Quote
which makes it all the more sad that you're justifying cruel and unnecessary pain. It seems some of us have the moral capabilities, at least.

Nice dig.

Quote
What do you mean "who cares"?

I mean who cares in the room I'm currently sitting in-- zero.

Quote
Quite a lot of people, the majority of the Dutch people apparently.

Then they're wusses. And the Dutch are Eurowusses.

Quote
to kill their animals in the most painful way.

Please demonstrate that halal/kosher slaughter is the "most painful way" to kill an animal. This should be fun.

Quote
Furthermore, do you advocate the bending or breaking of a countries laws that apply to everyone on the basis of not offending religious groups? Do you not support one law for all?

I generally advocate breaking laws, as most of them are unjust, without regard to religion. I think cutting the jugular and carotid arteries of an animal to be used for food is a completely acceptable and sufficiently humane method of slaughter-- the religious shit doesn't even factor into it for me.

Quote from: Kenan on April 09, 2011, 05:10 PM
What is the answer then? Parasites (like Trichinellosis) don't make much sense either.

Answer is the pigs are not desirable in places with limited arable land as they dig up roots.

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #27 - April 09, 2011, 05:19 PM

Hehe Q'man.

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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #28 - April 09, 2011, 05:27 PM

Quote from: Kenan on April 09, 2011, 05:10 PM
What is the answer then? Parasites (like Trichinellosis) don't make much sense either.

Actually it does, the jews also banned the eating of seafood aswell.
Exceptionally dangerous when not kept refrigerated and can't be equated to cannibalism.
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Re: Netherlands to vote on law banning slaughter by halal or kosher means.
Reply #29 - April 09, 2011, 05:36 PM

They only prohibited shellfish. In any case, trichinosis can be easily corrected by fully-cooking pork.

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