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Theme Changer

 Topic: Atheist Censorship

 (Read 48386 times)
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  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #240 - April 17, 2011, 01:03 AM

    You might be better off in here, Abu: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=15580.0

    Osmanthus split the topic out of this thread Smiley


    yes it seems a lot safer in there  grin12

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #241 - April 17, 2011, 01:08 AM

    s
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #242 - April 17, 2011, 01:13 AM

    @Z10

    Stimulating. The design theory was clusterbombed by Hume in his Dialogues.

    My quarrel is that he's added nothing to the interplay of ideas. Nothing which you can't find better stated in the pages of the original God slayers. Why read The God Delusion when you can read Mill's essays or Schopenhauer or Mencken? Ecclesiastes was right: There is nothing new under the dome of heaven.


    What new arguments has religion brought though?  Atheistic arguments are reactionary in nature and it is hard to argue against a position that no one has brought up yet.  We have heard Craig's "disembodied mind" and his " theory of time" and the new topic of " God is the best God of all worlds" etc.  Its not that atheists are lazy its just that there isn't much else to go off of.  

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #243 - April 17, 2011, 01:14 AM

    Quote
    I gather you've taken up the Drink of Life. True or false?

     


    ermmm, true?

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #244 - April 17, 2011, 05:50 AM

    This is from the God Delusion:

    "The temptation [to attribute the appearance of a design to actual design itself] is a false one, because the designer hypothesis immediately raises the larger problem of who designed the designer. The whole problem we started out with was the problem of explaining statistical improbability. It is obviously no solution to postulate something even more improbable."

    That's the kind of argument that would be laughed out of a theology 101 class.

    That may well be, but on the other hand I'm sure we are all familiar with examples of theologians who are well past the Theology 101 and yet still manage to say incredibly stupid things.

    Now, at this point it may be worth considering that one of the possible reasons Dicky's argument would be laughed out of a Theology 101 is because a 101 class is where the fundamental axioms are established, and anything that contradicts said axioms must be eliminated for progress to continue.

    The argument is actually not a bad one, IMO. It's not complete in every detail, but as far as it goes it's pretty good. It's a response to the common theological assertion that "The universe is improbable, ergo God." It points out that God is at least as improbable if assessed according to our normal notions of probability. The theologian will say that God is outside the universe and therefore outside of our notions of probability, which as far as we know only apply within this universe. Whoopee. So what? All that is really saying is that theologians don't know how the unvierse originated, since they have no actual evidence for God. You might as well just say that "The origin of the universe is a result of things that happened outside of it, and that these things are not bound by our usual notions of cause and effect" and be done with it. Chucking a completely hypothetical and totally unproven conscious deity into the mix adds nothing whatsoever to the explanation. It's just a pointless extra step that is pulled straight out of a theologian's arse.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #245 - April 17, 2011, 12:19 PM

    This is from the God Delusion:

    "The temptation [to attribute the appearance of a design to actual design itself] is a false one, because the designer hypothesis immediately raises the larger problem of who designed the designer. The whole problem we started out with was the problem of explaining statistical improbability. It is obviously no solution to postulate something even more improbable."

    That's the kind of argument that would be laughed out of a theology 101 class.


    Are you really saying that with a straight face?
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #246 - April 17, 2011, 04:26 PM

    .
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #247 - April 17, 2011, 04:35 PM

    ;
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #248 - April 17, 2011, 04:43 PM

    Faith is a living thing.  It’s something one does. It demands no periodic rejuvenation of ideas. The gospels are sufficient unto the day. The resurrection-men order their lives around the scribblings of the ancients. The William Craigs of the world are merely God’s bilingual interpreters, or to use their term merely their exegetists.  The case against the gods has been made with greater subtlety of thought by superior lights than the modern platitudinarians. To the work of the old school heaven robbers they have nothing of additional value to add, nothing worth reading, nothing of import . In point of fact these Johnny-come-latelies materially detract from the legacy of free thought.

    Are you saying that contemporary philosophers have nothing of value to add to the issue at hand?
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #249 - April 17, 2011, 04:54 PM

    that was cool
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #250 - April 17, 2011, 05:13 PM

    Censored because MAB wills it.

    But 'thinking' that god-is-dead is quite original. Especially if it is backed up with the Bible itself.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #251 - April 17, 2011, 05:42 PM

    .
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #252 - April 17, 2011, 09:04 PM

    That may well be, but on the other hand I'm sure we are all familiar with examples of theologians who are well past the Theology 101 and yet still manage to say incredibly stupid things.

    Now, at this point it may be worth considering that one of the possible reasons Dicky's argument would be laughed out of a Theology 101 is because a 101 class is where the fundamental axioms are established, and anything that contradicts said axioms must be eliminated for progress to continue.

    The argument is actually not a bad one, IMO. It's not complete in every detail, but as far as it goes it's pretty good. It's a response to the common theological assertion that "The universe is improbable, ergo God." It points out that God is at least as improbable if assessed according to our normal notions of probability. The theologian will say that God is outside the universe and therefore outside of our notions of probability, which as far as we know only apply within this universe. Whoopee. So what? All that is really saying is that theologians don't know how the unvierse originated, since they have no actual evidence for God. You might as well just say that "The origin of the universe is a result of things that happened outside of it, and that these things are not bound by our usual notions of cause and effect" and be done with it. Chucking a completely hypothetical and totally unproven conscious deity into the mix adds nothing whatsoever to the explanation. It's just a pointless extra step that is pulled straight out of a theologian's arse.


    I think the following passage from this article (http://www.firstthings.com/article/2010/04/believe-it-or-not) is the best articulation of why the infinite regress problem is so feeble:

    "Thus, the New Atheists’ favorite argument turns out to be just a version of the old argument from infinite regress: If you try to explain the existence of the universe by asserting God created it, you have solved nothing because then you are obliged to say where God came from, and so on ad infinitum, one turtle after another, all the way down. This is a line of attack with a long pedigree, admittedly. John Stuart Mill learned it at his father’s knee. Bertrand Russell thought it more than sufficient to put paid to the whole God issue once and for all. Dennett thinks it as unanswerable today as when Hume first advanced it—although, as a professed admirer of Hume, he might have noticed that Hume quite explicitly treats it as a formidable objection only to the God of Deism, not to the God of “traditional metaphysics.” In truth, though, there could hardly be a weaker argument. To use a feeble analogy, it is rather like asserting that it is inadequate to say that light is the cause of illumination because one is then obliged to say what it is that illuminates the light, and so on ad infinitum.

    The most venerable metaphysical claims about God do not simply shift priority from one kind of thing (say, a teacup or the universe) to another thing that just happens to be much bigger and come much earlier (some discrete, very large gentleman who preexists teacups and universes alike). These claims start, rather, from the fairly elementary observation that nothing contingent, composite, finite, temporal, complex, and mutable can account for its own existence, and that even an infinite series of such things can never be the source or ground of its own being, but must depend on some source of actuality beyond itself. Thus, abstracting from the universal conditions of contingency, one very well may (and perhaps must) conclude that all things are sustained in being by an absolute plenitude of actuality, whose very essence is being as such: not a “supreme being,” not another thing within or alongside the universe, but the infinite act of being itself, the one eternal and transcendent source of all existence and knowledge, in which all finite being participates."

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #253 - April 17, 2011, 09:06 PM

    modified.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #254 - April 17, 2011, 09:36 PM

    Z10, yes the quote you just posted does make more sense as a conjecture, but it's hardly what is usually meant by the word "God" and is not how theists usually understand their deity to be. What the quote describes is simply, for want of a better description, an "essence" that requires neither consciousness, nor intent, nor benificence, nor any of the other qualities usually assigned to deities.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #255 - April 17, 2011, 09:39 PM

    Dawkins isn't asserting an argument against a first cause, he is arguing against a god more complex than creation. And he isn't saying it's impossible, he's saying it's improbable.
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #256 - April 17, 2011, 09:42 PM

    .
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #257 - April 17, 2011, 10:07 PM

    Z10, yes the quote you just posted does make more sense as a conjecture, but it's hardly what is usually meant by the word "God" and is not how theists usually understand their deity to be. What the quote describes is simply, for want of a better description, an "essence" that requires neither consciousness, nor intent, nor benificence, nor any of the other qualities usually assigned to deities.


    Indeed, but that's the entire contention. Dawkins is making the easy argument against the orthodox religions without tackling the really sophisticated theological arguments. We all know that the orthodox religions are easy targets, but if you're going to write a book about 'god' then surely you should have something to say about the best arguments for god, not just the easiest to dismiss.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #258 - April 17, 2011, 10:09 PM

    A bit far? I'm disappointed. I was hoping to have gone a lot far. Why insult me cloud dweller? I don't hold that only those duo lord it over unchallenged as the kings of the Country of the Mind. I've spoken of plenty of other academics of whom I think well- Chomsky, Peter Singer, Edward Said etc. I allude here to the big hitters in the discipline in which one of the more vulgar athiest celebrities operates. A case of first-rate thinkers being undeservedly outshone by the decidedly fourth-rate.

    So who are these others you hint at? Yuu should teach me. I'm just a country boy who is very slow.


    I don't know if there are any others. I was just being blase about the state of academia.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #259 - April 17, 2011, 10:09 PM

    Indeed, but that's the entire contention. Dawkins is making the easy argument against the orthodox religions without tackling the really sophisticated theological arguments. We all know that the orthodox religions are easy targets, but if you're going to write a book about 'god' then surely you should have something to say about the best arguments for god, not just the easiest to dismiss.


    Have you read the god delusion?
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #260 - April 17, 2011, 10:10 PM

    Indeed, but that's the entire contention. Dawkins is making the easy argument against the orthodox religions without tackling the really sophisticated theological arguments. We all know that the orthodox religions are easy targets, but if you're going to write a book about 'god' then surely you should have something to say about the best arguments for god, not just the easiest to dismiss.

    But, as I said, it's not really an argument for god as such.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #261 - April 17, 2011, 10:12 PM

    Have you read the god delusion?


    most of it, yes. I apologise if I am missing anything. Am I?

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #262 - April 17, 2011, 10:15 PM

    Dawkins specifically says he is targeting the organised religions that the vast majority of theists subsrcibe to.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #263 - April 17, 2011, 10:16 PM

    No, I'm just surprised you have. Bet you still haven't read the Selfish Gene, that I recommended about 7 months ago. Tongue Perhaps you will have a kinder impression of Dawkins if you read work related to his actual field.  The God delusion is a popular attack on the Abrahamic faiths for the layman, Dawkins makes his subject matter very clear, (and it's very good for what it is I think) it's not going to deal with more sophisticated theological arguments. (Which don't really exist in 'orthodox religion' imo.)
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #264 - April 17, 2011, 10:19 PM

    But, as I said, it's not really an argument for god as such.


    There are many theologians throughout history who took exactly this view of god - as the ontological ground of all being from which emanated all reality. This is the Platonic and Neo-Platonic understanding of god. It is also compatible with mystical views of reality. It is also the conception of god that was held by many of the idealists of the 19th century.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #265 - April 17, 2011, 10:20 PM

    No, I'm just surprised you have. Bet you still haven't read the Selfish Gene, that I recommended about 7 months ago. Tongue Perhaps you will have a kinder impression of Dawkins if you read work related to his actual field.  The God delusion is a popular attack on the Abrahamic faiths for the layman, Dawkins makes his subject matter very clear, (and it's very good for what it is I think) it's not going to deal with more sophisticated theological arguments. (Which don't really exist in 'orthodox religion' imo.)


    Oh sure, I am certain that his evolutionary writings would be extremely interesting and knowledgeable to read.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #266 - April 17, 2011, 10:21 PM

    Yep. This is something that has always puzzled me. Dawkins is very clear about what he is doing and yet some people try to take his book completely out of context, and then villify him for not tackling subjects he never claimed to be tackling.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #267 - April 17, 2011, 10:23 PM

    There are many theologians throughout history who took exactly this view of god - as the ontological ground of all being from which emanated all reality. This is the Platonic and Neo-Platonic understanding of god. It is also compatible with mystical views of reality. It is also the conception of god that was held by many of the idealists of the 19th century.

    Ok, but as far as it goes, the argument you posted says nothing whatsoever about the qualities of such a "god", except that it somehow causes things to exist. Therefore, it does nothing whatsoever to provide any support for further extrapolations regarding the nature of such a thing.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #268 - April 17, 2011, 10:23 PM

    Dawkins specifically says he is targeting the organised religions that the vast majority of theists subsrcibe to.


    Sure, but I thought you were contending my point that Dawkins' arguments would be 'lauged out of a theology 101 class'. We all know that orthodox religion is easily dismissed.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Atheist Censorship
     Reply #269 - April 17, 2011, 10:25 PM

    Ok, but as far as it goes, the argument you posted says nothing whatsoever about the qualities of such a "god", except that it somehow causes things to exist. Therefore, it does nothing whatsoever to provide any support for further extrapolations regarding the nature of such a thing.


    Well, I think there are arguments made about the nature of such an essence, but that's another discussion altogether, no?
    I can try and summarise the better arguments if you wish.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
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