OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..

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OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
OP - April 15, 2011, 12:07 AM

I personally DO for the following reasons mainly:

1) It makes womanhood a badge of shame. The Burqa is BLACK for a reason. In almost all cultures and religions the colour black is associated with bad, undesirable or unworthy things. it is a clear symbol of misogyny.

2) Security aside, it also takes away a womans right to taste and individuality. The women wearing it can no shop at a nice shop, can not wear nice, presentable clothes, can not attend do's and functions, they are excluded from life and are condemmed by this burqa to be locked away in a kitchen.
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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #1 - April 15, 2011, 12:10 AM

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=15490.0

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #2 - April 15, 2011, 12:24 AM

There's no poll in the other thread. I could edit one in if people want it.

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #3 - April 15, 2011, 12:34 AM

I oppose the ban. Expression of ideas (religious or otherwise) is an absolute and natural right that shouldn't be restricted except when it infringes on the rights of others. If even one woman wears the veil out of 100% free personal decision to do so, it must be defended.

Women in the West being coerced into wearing it already have options under the law to not wear it. Instead of a lazy, blanket ban which is largely symbolic, and I don't believe will do a damn thing to improve the status of women in conservative Muslim families, the state should instead provide more resources into assuring that women from Muslim families who wish to reject their culture/religion's oppressive customs (veil or the many other things in Islam and Muslim cultures that oppresses women) have the support they need.

Bans on personal activity are typically the lazy, pandering politicians'/political activists' way of treating social symptoms rather than the disease itself. They tend to be for the weak, the lazy, and the unimaginative.

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #4 - April 15, 2011, 01:21 AM

Men look lustfully at women = woman wears burqa
Women look lustfully at men = .......

^ Yey for Islamic equality ^

Anyway, I oppose the ban to one extent, but support it in others. To elaborate:

The government simply doesn't have the right to tell people what to wear in their daily lives (I know why they are doing it with the Burqa) but nonetheless, It is not an ethical and correct decision in all cases, blanket bans never are.
HOWEVER:
I am entirely in favor of everyone having to abide by the same rules in every place where there ARE requirements and rules to follow. If I can/can't wear/do something, then no one else should either.

Let's take a bank, restaurant or factory for example:
Am I allowed to cover my face?
Am I allowed to wear flowing clothes?
Am I allowed to wear Jewelry?
Am I allowed to contradict the set uniform?
Am I allowed to carry a weapon?
Am I allowed to wear makeup?
Am I allowed to have facial hair?

Do I have to wear protective clothing?
Do I have to show/cover parts of my body?

The answers directed at person 1 MUST be identical to person 2.
Therefor a ban of the Burqa in all publicly accessed buildings is fully supported by myself.
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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #5 - April 15, 2011, 01:31 AM

Quote from: mighty_cats on April 15, 2011, 01:21 AM
I am entirely in favor of everyone having to abide by the same rules in every place where there ARE requirements and rules to follow. If I can/can't wear/do something, then no one else should either.

Let's take a bank, restaurant or factory for example:
Am I allowed to cover my face?
Am I allowed to wear flowing clothes?
Am I allowed to wear Jewelry?
Am I allowed to contradict the set uniform?
Am I allowed to carry a weapon?
Am I allowed to wear makeup?
Am I allowed to have facial hair?

Do I have to wear protective clothing?
Do I have to show/cover parts of my body?

The answers directed at person 1 MUST be identical to person 2.
Therefor a ban of the Burqa in all publicly accessed buildings is fully supported by myself.

I'm sorry, but why would that require a blanket ban on the burqa in all publicly-accessed buildings? I don't get it. Why wouldn't that be the choice of the proprietor (whether someone can have their face covered in their establishment or not)?

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #6 - April 15, 2011, 01:41 AM

I have yet to see one argument for imposing a blanket ban on the veil that proves to me that alternative legislation/methods to help liberate women and yet refrain from restricting someone's free choice of what they want to wear would be less effective than such a ban. People who support the ban, even when presented with potentially more effective alternatives that are less restrictive of someone's personal choice, need to man up/woman up and fuckin just admit they want the government to forcibly impose their values on other people.

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #7 - April 15, 2011, 01:51 AM

Quote from: Q-Man on April 15, 2011, 01:41 AM
......blanket ban...........

Oh and puns aside, generally I agree with your points. I could see the state banning niqab, etc in some state buildings though.

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #8 - April 15, 2011, 01:57 AM

It sends a message to the burqists: your behavior is foreign, you don't get to make your own rules that you wish to follow; we don't like your extremism. I mostly like it.

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #9 - April 15, 2011, 02:09 AM

Simply "sending a message" isn't enough justification for the state to restrict personal expression, religious or otherwise-- not even close. It's unjust.

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #10 - April 15, 2011, 02:15 AM

I agree with q. Banning women from wearing a burka is just the opposite (but equally reprehensible) act of forcing women to wear it.

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #11 - April 15, 2011, 02:21 AM

I wouldn't go quite that far. Given the reasoning behind and the implications of the burqa I would say that enforcing its wearing is rather worse than banning it. That doesn't mean the ban is exactly a good idea though.

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #12 - April 15, 2011, 02:23 AM

I think both forcing and banning are on an equal par because they both take away the right of a person to do as they wish.

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #13 - April 15, 2011, 02:59 AM

1. But we don't let people just do as they wish. I am not free to self express by driving on the wrong side of the road, etc.
2. Faces are how we identify women. I mean people. Should people like Q-man be free to run around in ninja outfits?

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #14 - April 15, 2011, 03:00 AM

Driving on the wrong side of the road kills people. Burqas don't.

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #15 - April 15, 2011, 03:04 AM

Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on April 15, 2011, 02:59 AM
1. But we don't let people just do as they wish.

No we don't, but we should, provided what they do does not directly and immediately infringe on or endanger another person's rights. Anyone who thinks otherwise-- well let's just say I reserve the right to call them every name in the book, primarily a hypocrite, the next time they utter the word "freedom" in a positive manner.

Quote
I am not free to self express by driving on the wrong side of the road, etc.

See above, driving on the wrong side of the road is a direct and immediate threat to the right to life of other people. Wearing a burqa does not, in and of itself, pose a direct and immediate threat to anyone else's rights.

Quote
Should people like Q-man be free to run around in ninja outfits?

Without the state imposing a blanket prohibition on ninja outfits? Yes, and I'm free to walk the streets now with one if I so choose.

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #16 - April 15, 2011, 03:06 AM

This post is here only because I do not get to press quote button to the post directly above and I really like it.

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #17 - April 15, 2011, 03:08 AM

Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on April 15, 2011, 03:06 AM
This post is here only because I do not get to press quote button to the post directly above and I really like it.

Press reply, scroll down to posts below text box, press 'Quote this post' button on top right of the post you wish to quote. That's what I just did.

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #18 - April 15, 2011, 03:09 AM

Quote from: Q-Man on April 15, 2011, 03:04 AM
No we don't, but we should, provided what they do does not directly and immediately infringe on or endanger another person's rights. Anyone who thinks otherwise-- well let's just say I reserve the right to call them every name in the book, primarily a hypocrite, the next time they utter the word "freedom" in a positive manner.

See above, driving on the wrong side of the road is a direct and immediate threat to the right to life of other people. Wearing a burqa does not, in and of itself, pose a direct and immediate threat to anyone else's rights.

Without the state imposing a blanket prohibition on ninja outfits? Yes, and I'm free to walk the streets now with one if I so choose.

1. You are a radical, Q. My analogy was horrible, no doubt. But it's sole purpose was to show that people are not allowed to do as they wish. Walking around naked doesn't infringe on anyone's right either, but if you support that, then you are a radical.

2. It's a shame if people like you can run around with ninja outfits, concealing their identity in public. It's also radical. I don't like it.

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #19 - April 15, 2011, 03:09 AM

Quote from: Q-Man on April 15, 2011, 03:08 AM
Press reply, scroll down to posts below text box, press 'Quote this post' button on top right of the post you wish to quote. That's what I just did.

Thanks

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #20 - April 15, 2011, 03:10 AM

Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on April 15, 2011, 03:09 AM
1. You are a radical, Q. My analogy was horrible, no doubt. But it's sole purpose was to show that people are not allowed to do as they wish. Walking around naked doesn't infringe on anyone's right either, but if you support that, then you are a radical.

2. It's a shame if people like you can run around with ninja outfits, concealing their identity in public. It's also radical. I don't like it.

But is your not liking it enough to ban others from doing it?

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #21 - April 15, 2011, 03:13 AM

Z10,

No not in a more perfect world. In reality though, I would ban it not because of my dislikes, but because of realities of combination of oppression of women and spread of Islamism, which I am against.

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #22 - April 15, 2011, 03:14 AM

Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on April 15, 2011, 03:09 AM
1. You are a radical, Q. My analogy was horrible, no doubt. But it's sole purpose was to show that people are not allowed to do as they wish. Walking around naked doesn't infringe on anyone's right either, but if you support that, then you are a radical.

Then where do you draw the line at what is just for the state to restrict? When the majority determines it has an adverse impact on society, at any level, regardless of whether or not it directly and immediately infringes on the rights of another? Because if so, the majority in Saudi Arabia would likely support keeping women covered up under threat of criminal penalties in the belief such laws benefit society-- is that justice?

Quote
2. It's a shame if people like you can run around with ninja outfits, concealing their identity in public. It's also radical. I don't like it.

Your personal likes or dislikes are irrelevant to the issue of justice. The state restricting personal freedom when it does not directly and immediately infringe on the rights of another is unjust. The entire world could tell me they don't like it and it would still be unjust.

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #23 - April 15, 2011, 03:18 AM

Quote from: Q-Man on April 15, 2011, 03:14 AM
Then where do you draw the line at what is just for the state to restrict? When the majority determines it has an adverse impact on society, at any level, regardless of whether or not it directly and immediately infringes on the rights of another? Because if so, the majority in Saudi Arabia would likely support keeping women covered up under threat of criminal penalties in the belief such laws benefit society-- is that justice?

Your personal likes or dislikes are irrelevant to the issue of justice. The state restricting personal freedom when it does not directly and immediately infringe on the rights of another is unjust. The entire world could tell me they don't like it and it would still be unjust.

1. You have a better system in mind than democracy? Radical. LOL
2. On at least one thread here, which name I can't recall it has been established that justice is just that: our likes. Oh wait, it was something about death penalty.

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #24 - April 15, 2011, 03:23 AM

Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on April 15, 2011, 03:18 AM
1. You have a better system in mind than democracy? Radical. LOL

Mere majoritarian rule without constitutional limits on the power of the state to violate the rights of a minority is a shallow, thoughtless and unprincipled form of democracy, and in practice is essentially what De Tocqueville termed "tyranny of the majority".

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #25 - April 15, 2011, 03:27 AM

Agreed. Do you contest France's ban's constitutionality?

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #26 - April 15, 2011, 03:33 AM

No. No civil government in the world today is both constitutionally-structured and practicing a justly limited form of state power, nor do they even adequately represent the interests of the majority. Constitutionally the US is the closest to the ideal, but much farther from the ideal in practice than may other countries, which goes to show that constitutional limits on the power of the state cannot survive an inherently oppressive and unequal social/economic system.

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #27 - April 15, 2011, 03:35 AM

Q, I already said several posts ago that you're a radical. You proved me right. What shall we do about the evil world we live in now?

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #28 - April 15, 2011, 03:40 AM

Do our best to improve it and stand against injustice.

Today's radical is tomorrow's conservative. We have the luxury of talking about such things because in the past radicals decided the status quo was unjust and worked to change it. Once upon a time, anyone questioning the feudal social, economic and political system would have been considered mad. History shows that the radicals always win out in the end, even if it takes decades or even hundreds of years to do so.

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Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
Reply #29 - April 15, 2011, 03:43 AM

Beautiful. My sincerest wishes that it gets you laid. Work on delivery in front of the mirror.

Btw, I think what you said is very true yet very unrelated to a meaningful debate on the burqa ban.

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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