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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Do you agree with the ban? Why/why not?  (if this poll has already been posted forgive me)  (Voting closed: May 15, 2011, 12:07 AM)
  • Yes - 5 (33.3%)
  • No - 10 (66.7%)
  • Total Voters: 15

 Topic: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..

 (Read 7255 times)
  • Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
     Reply #30 - April 15, 2011, 03:44 AM

    I'm sorry, but why would that require a blanket ban on the burqa in all publicly-accessed buildings? I don't get it. Why wouldn't that be the choice of the proprietor (whether someone can have their face covered in their establishment or not)?


    I don't see how you managed to make that comment, yet quote mine where I specifically state that the rule for 1 person must apply to the second.
    If I walk into the local shop, it is clearly indicated that I must remove hoods and helmets (anything that covers my face) before entering the premises, If I work in a company it is clearly indicated that I must remove jewelry, wear a specific uniform and comply with health and safety regulations.
    As I stated, 1 rule for all.
    I cannot cover my face in a shop therefor neither should they.
  • Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
     Reply #31 - April 15, 2011, 10:03 PM

    I personally DO for the following reasons mainly:

    1) It makes womanhood a badge of shame. The Burqa is BLACK for a reason. In almost all cultures and religions the colour black is associated with bad, undesirable or unworthy things. it is a clear symbol of misogyny.


    Even though there is no colour preference in Islam, black is actually seen as a good colour. Its the colour of the kaabah, the colour of the flags Mo brought to battle (used today as well) black turbans etc. And in desi culture its seen as good too, hence so many pakis having black pieces of cloth hanging from the back of their cars and black wristbands apparently its for "good luck"  Roll Eyes
  • Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
     Reply #32 - April 15, 2011, 10:31 PM

    Ban is required.
    I think it will work. Any extremism reported yet due to the ban?
    It's needed in the UK.
    Of course my local MP thinks it will increase extremism.
  • Re: OK, so France has (officially) banned the Burqaa few days ago..
     Reply #33 - April 15, 2011, 11:06 PM

    Agree with Q...no point in significantly expanding on that really as he's presented the case well. I fully appreciate the desire to liberate those who are forced into an oppressive dress code, but we know that there are women who desire to wear such things. Why is their personal liberty any less precious? Surely we would agree that liberty should not be apportioned on the basis of who we do and do not agree with (as long as their actions would not impose on the liberty of others that is). Just systems are not built on such premises.

    That said, I see no reason why religious or cultural dress codes should supersede hitherto accepted rules for specific places and situations. If no one is allowed to wear a hood at school, and this is accepted on the basis of pupil uniformity, then why make a  special case for the god botherers? Equally, if faces must be shown in the bank, and this is accepted for reasons of security, the rule should apply to everyone. I confess, this is unstable ground. Rules can be created which apply to all but effect only a purposefully targeted few. I struggle for a catch all solution here other than assessment on a case by case basis. Your thoughts on this point would be much appreciated.
  • Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
     Reply #34 - April 16, 2011, 02:35 AM

    By the way, just to clarify something (which I wasn't previously aware of myself) the ban is not actually a ban on the niqab or burqa. It is a ban on covering the face in public. In other words it would apply equally to any non-Muslim, male or female, who covered their face with anything.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
     Reply #35 - April 16, 2011, 03:22 AM

    Yeah, that's why I brought the ninjas in earlier.

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
     Reply #36 - April 16, 2011, 03:34 AM

    There's a very good article about this issue here: France behind the veil

    Quote
    This year, increasingly spooked by plummeting approval ratings and a far right invigorated by its new leader, Marine Le Pen, Sarkozy has again attempted to distract voter anxiety in the wake of tough austerity measures and skyrocketing unemployment rates. He focused on the Islamic symbol of the veil in a discussion on the republic's social ills.


    And an interesting insight into the reasons one woman wears it (I'm sure some of you could relate to this):
    Quote
    Ahmas grew up in a Muslim family in which nobody wore the veil, and her teenage years were no different to those of many other French girls: discos, a bit of smoking, boys. At 25, however, a dream she had had as a child returned to her with potent, life-changing clarity.

    ''I remember seeing myself on my bed, rising higher above the room, then the house, the street, the neighbourhood, rising up into the skies seeing everything recede, like being in an airplane,'' she says.

    ''Then I saw two enormous feet, gold of a gold … such a gold colour I cannot describe … precious stones of vivid unimaginable hues and then a voice that is not like a voice like yours or mine … said, 'You will go to hell because you know how to practise your faith but you have failed to do so.'

    ''I cried, I begged, I pleaded for another chance. Then the voice said I would be granted this, but I would return with no memory. I woke and remembered nothing … until six years ago.''

    That day, she summoned a disbelieving friend and talked her into buying her a burqa. She did not leave the house until it was delivered, and has never gone out without a veil since. ''I found this thirst to read, to study my faith, to know more, to practise and honour this second chance I was given … I want to bring out the best of myself, I want to go to paradise, earn my place there."


    Quote
    For Rachid Nekkaz, a French-Algerian property tycoon, the ban on the veil not only smacks of political hypocrisy and tactics of distraction by an increasingly unpopular president but also contravenes the French constitution.

    Nekkaz, who has declared himself a Socialist candidate in next year's presidential rounds, has set up a fighting fund to pay the fines of women who defy the law. This week he pledged to sell a suburban property to finance the civil disobedience campaign as well as an appeal to the European Court of Human Rights.

    ''I personally am against the niqab,'' he told me in the garden of the house he plans to sell. ''But I will defend to the death a person's right to wear it in the street.

    ''The most precious thing in life is liberty … I am lucky enough to have the assets to defend this liberty which for me, is more than that. It is a right.''

    With that, the flamboyant Nekkaz walks over to Hind Ahmas, and dons a Venetian mask in solidarity.

    Read more


    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
     Reply #37 - April 16, 2011, 03:57 AM

    No disrespect to fundamentalists, but that girl is either crazy or just trolling. I mean "feet of undescribable  gold of gold"?

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
     Reply #38 - April 16, 2011, 04:05 AM

    Ban is required.
    I think it will work. Any extremism reported yet due to the ban?
    It's needed in the UK.
    Of course my local MP thinks it will increase extremism.


     Roll Eyes

    Yes, HO, we're all well aware of your opinion that the nanny-state needs to protect people from themselves when it comes to Islam.

    Thanks for not addressing any of the arguments in this thread against the ban, and for refusing to provide a detailed and cogent analysis for why you think the ban is necessary, besides the fact that you've already repeatedly demonstrated yourself incapable of being able to think of solutions to social ills besides having the state use their coercive powers to fix everything.

    By the way, just to clarify something (which I wasn't previously aware of myself) the ban is not actually a ban on the niqab or burqa. It is a ban on covering the face in public. In other words it would apply equally to any non-Muslim, male or female, who covered their face with anything.


    Right, and the law banning open carry of firearms by civilians in urban areas of California signed into law by Governor Ronald Reagan in 1970 did not specifically mention the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense, but it's pretty obvious that's who they were targeting with the law.

    Quote
    This year, increasingly spooked by plummeting approval ratings and a far right invigorated by its new leader, Marine Le Pen, Sarkozy has again attempted to distract voter anxiety in the wake of tough austerity measures and skyrocketing unemployment rates. He focused on the Islamic symbol of the veil in a discussion on the republic's social ills.



    And that right there is the crux of the issue. Anytime you see politicians bring up any law restricting the activity of immigrants or religious/cultural/racial minorities, you can bet they want to distract you away from something else. The only substantive moral difference between the culture warrior politicians in the US saber-rattling over wedge issues like abortion, religion, gay marriage and immigration and the culture warrior politicians in France pushing the burqa ban is that the latter issue effects way fewer people.

    Seriously, when so much is made of needing a law to ban an article of clothing that the most generous estimates put at maximum of 2,000 out of a population of 65 fucking million, you really have to wonder about the motivations of the politicians pushing for such legislation. I'd say this issue is about 40% ideology and 60% cynical political opportunism.

    fuck you
  • Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
     Reply #39 - April 16, 2011, 04:09 AM

    It's the age old tactic: when you're copping shit yourself and you want to hang onto your position, invent an enemy and make a lot of noise about it.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
     Reply #40 - April 16, 2011, 04:16 AM

    No disrespect to fundamentalists, but that girl is either crazy or just trolling. I mean "feet of undescribable  gold of gold"?

    Well she is a bit melodramatic, but OTOH she is describing a dream she had as a child so some fairy tale imagery shouldn't be that surprising. What I meant by "relate to this" was the fear of Hell and the desire for paradise that is common to a lot of religious people, or in this case the memory of it in ex-religious people.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: OK, so France has (oficially_ banned the Burqaa few days ago..
     Reply #41 - April 16, 2011, 08:57 AM

    It's the age old tactic: when you're copping shit yourself and you want to hang onto your position, invent an enemy and make a lot of noise about it.

    Quite. And with the strangely impressive Marine Le Pen breathing down Sarkozy's neck, it's not a surprising move.

    But I think the "burka ban" is also a clumsy first step in restating the secular (Christian-inspired) ideals that have often been subsumed in a desire to embrace pluralism and not offend minorities.
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