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 Topic: What I despise the most about Islam!

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  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #90 - May 30, 2011, 07:30 PM
    Quote from: iSoK on May 30, 2011, 07:23 PM
    The base of your argument is the same as Epicurus.
    Which sees the concept of evil as something unneccesary, this is why I see his argument as a failure.
    My argument shows that 'evil' is needed for society, without it, society cannot function.




    Christianity has the same premise.
    Quote from: Mount A Bison on September 26, 2010, 03:19 PM
    Is your grammar defective? Just askin'.


    "The wound is the place where the Light enters you." - Rumi

  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #91 - May 30, 2011, 07:34 PM
    Quote
    Christianity has the same premise.


    In that matter, its as mendacious as Islam.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #92 - May 30, 2011, 07:35 PM
    Quote from: iSoK on May 30, 2011, 07:23 PM
    The base of your argument is the same as Epicurus.
    Which sees the concept of evil as something unneccesary, this is why I see his argument as a failure.
    My argument shows that 'evil' is needed for society, without it, society cannot function.

    If evil is needed for society, why do we strive so hard to eliminate it?

    You can't honestly be arguing that a world with evil in is superior to a world without it.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #93 - May 30, 2011, 07:36 PM
    Quote from: iSoK on May 30, 2011, 07:23 PM
    The base of your argument is the same as Epicurus.



    The base of your argument is that the lies, contradictions, backward simplicities, and sanctified bigotry of your religion are validated by the existence of an imaginary Big Daddy Josef Fritzl in the sky.

    In other words, there is no base there at all, only delusion.

     
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #94 - May 30, 2011, 07:37 PM
    Quote from: billy on May 30, 2011, 07:34 PM
    In that matter, its as mendacious as Islam.




    Yeah, I lived my life as both... so I know. -__-
    Quote from: Mount A Bison on September 26, 2010, 03:19 PM
    Is your grammar defective? Just askin'.


    "The wound is the place where the Light enters you." - Rumi

  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #95 - May 30, 2011, 07:44 PM
    Quote from: z10 on May 30, 2011, 07:12 PM
    This is an interesting argument, isok. I'm going to try and clarify your argument below, please let me know if I have it correct:

    1. Evil is broadly defined as anything that is 'excessive'


    Not in all cases.
    I see illiteracy for example also as an aspect of evil, it's a point of zero knowledge.
    [/quote]

    Quote from: z10 on May 30, 2011, 07:12 PM

    2. Indulging in excessive behaviour causes pain for both individuals and society in general
    3. The purpose of all existence is to curb behaviour that is excessive and thus learn to live without greed etc
    4. Therefore, evil is necessary to warn us against excessive behaviour.


    Evil is not a warning. It's a result of both God and man.
    You could say that the presence of evil gives us human beings to do something.
    Like I said earlier, our society is based on this aspect, it's something to learn from.
    And if you overcome a form of evil, that gives us a form of happiness.

    Quote from: z10 on May 30, 2011, 07:12 PM
    If the above is correct, I have a question for you. Humans are advised by Islam to love god unconditionally and without limit. Would you call this love excessive and therefore, evil?


    Excessive love for God is something between God and the individual. Monk's spend their whole life out of dedication to God.
    But they don't harm society in any way.
    The Noble Qur'an -  Verily God does not change a people's condition unless they change their inner selves.
  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #96 - May 30, 2011, 07:50 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on May 30, 2011, 07:35 PM
    If evil is needed for society, why do we strive so hard to eliminate it?

    You can't honestly be arguing that a world with evil in is superior to a world without it.


    Because for every human being the source of happiness lies behind the barriers of evil.
    Individually everyone defines evil in a different way.
    I see everything that I want too overcome as evil.
    Overcoming it, gives us a taste of the source.
    The Noble Qur'an -  Verily God does not change a people's condition unless they change their inner selves.
  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #97 - May 30, 2011, 07:51 PM
    ^ you've effectively defined evil as that which we - or some agency that only humanity can discern - might dislike and would forbid. By that definition, as long as humanity exists, there will be evil.

    Which is fair enough. Take away the invisible man and that still stands. However, as an argument for the existence of an invisible man, it's not very useful.
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #98 - May 30, 2011, 07:53 PM

    Trying to posit the existence of 'evil' as being an extension of God's dispensation towards humans, and a 'test' for humans for his grace, and proof, is mendacious. The premise that is being debunked is that of the total truth claims made for 'God', and the submission towards his mores and delegated proxies, represented in the individuals affiliated to the power structures that pledge allegiance to him in the name of Mohammad and Allah, in this case. It is to his supposed omnipotence that appeals are made, and the ethics and claims and morality that are derived from that basic delusional assertion is what is being addressed. To suggest otherwise is sophistry.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #99 - May 30, 2011, 07:53 PM
    Quote from: iSoK on May 30, 2011, 07:50 PM
    Because for every human being the source of happiness lies behind the barriers of evil.
    Individually everyone defines evil in a different way.
    I see everything that I want too overcome as evil.
    Overcoming it, gives us a taste of the source.

    So you concede then, that evil is in fact not necessary for society to function, and that it is instead something to be eliminated?

    You can’t have it both ways. Evil can't be both an essential component of the world and also something to overcome to make a better world. Which is it?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #100 - May 30, 2011, 07:55 PM
    Quote from: toor on May 30, 2011, 07:51 PM
    ^ you've effectively defined evil as that which we - or some agency that only humanity can discern - might dislike and would forbid. By that definition, as long as humanity exists, there will be evil.

    Which is fair enough. Take away the invisible man and that still stands. However, as an argument for the existence of an invisible man, it's not very useful.


    The concept of evil is not an argument for God's existence.
    I wanted to make clear that evil is neccesary in the case of both God and no God.

    It's not an argument against God.
    The Noble Qur'an -  Verily God does not change a people's condition unless they change their inner selves.
  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #101 - May 30, 2011, 07:56 PM
    Quote
    I wanted to make clear that evil is neccesary in the case of both God and no God.


    What an utterly inane thing to say.

    Evil is neither 'neccesary' or uneccesary - it simply is.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #102 - May 30, 2011, 07:59 PM
    Quote from: iSoK on May 30, 2011, 07:55 PM
    The concept of evil is not an argument for God's existence.
    I wanted to make clear that evil is neccesary in the case of both God and no God.

    It's not an argument against God.


    You must not have taken a midevial philosophy class then because the concept of evil is totally relevant for the existence or non-existence of God...
    Quote from: Mount A Bison on September 26, 2010, 03:19 PM
    Is your grammar defective? Just askin'.


    "The wound is the place where the Light enters you." - Rumi

  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #103 - May 30, 2011, 08:01 PM
    Though you cannot deny the existence of evil, I wouldn't go as far to say its 'necessary'.
    07:54 <harakaat>: you must be jema
    07:54 <harakaat>: considering how annoying you are
  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #104 - May 30, 2011, 08:03 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on May 30, 2011, 07:53 PM
    So you concede then, that evil is in fact not necessary for society to function, and that it is instead something to be eliminated?

    You can’t have it both ways. Evil can't be both an essential component of the world and also something to overcome to make a better world. Which is it?


    It's a essential combination that can't be splitted.

    Evil is an essential component for human development.  It gives us a goal in life and that goal is too make a better world.
    While the destination of that journey is at the same time not possible, reaching it will  eliminate the source of happiness
    in this reality, which is progress.

    The Noble Qur'an -  Verily God does not change a people's condition unless they change their inner selves.
  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #105 - May 30, 2011, 08:06 PM

    Utter banal inanity that thinks it is profound insight ^^^^

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #106 - May 30, 2011, 08:08 PM
    Quote from: iSoK on May 30, 2011, 08:03 PM
    It's a essential combination that can't be splitted.

    Evil is an essential component for human development.  It gives us a goal in life and that goal is too make a better world.
    While the destination of that journey is at the same time not possible, reaching it will  eliminate the source of happiness
    in this reality, which is progress.


    I smell a Irenaeus follower...
    07:54 <harakaat>: you must be jema
    07:54 <harakaat>: considering how annoying you are
  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #107 - May 30, 2011, 08:09 PM
    Quote from: iSoK on May 30, 2011, 07:55 PM
    The concept of evil is not an argument for God's existence.
    I wanted to make clear that evil is neccesary in the case of both God and no God.

    It's not an argument against God.

    It's an argument that God is evil, though.

    If God doesn't exist, this world with all its suffering and natural disasters is just a neutral landscape where we happened to evolve and where we must learn to adapt.

    If God does exist, this world is a sadistic rat's maze and God is like a spiteful kid pulling the legs off of bugs and watching them suffer, just because he can.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #108 - May 30, 2011, 08:12 PM
    Quote from: iSoK on May 30, 2011, 07:55 PM
    The concept of evil is not an argument for God's existence.
    I wanted to make clear that evil is neccesary in the case of both God and no God.

    It's not an argument against God.


    But given the claims made for God, rather relevant, wouldn't you say?

    So far, again, all we have here is an acceptance that morality is not inherently dependent on God. Why, then, do we need a God?

    edit: Proofreading. I fails it.
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #109 - May 30, 2011, 08:15 PM
    Quote from: iSoK on May 30, 2011, 08:03 PM
    It's a essential combination that can't be splitted.

    Evil is an essential component for human development.  It gives us a goal in life and that goal is too make a better world.
    While the destination of that journey is at the same time not possible, reaching it will  eliminate the source of happiness
    in this reality, which is progress.

    Nonsense. It's completely unnecessary. We could be exploring different galaxies by now if not for the petty evils of the earth.

    If you could push a button right now that cured AIDS and cancer, all diseases, all crippling disabilities, solved global poverty, put an end to world hunger, eased third world living conditions, stopped all needless suffering, gave everyone basic equal human rights and dignity, would you push it?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #110 - May 30, 2011, 08:26 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on May 30, 2011, 08:15 PM
    Nonsense. It's completely unnecessary. We could be exploring different galaxies by now if not for the petty evils of the earth.

    If you could push a button right now that cured AIDS and cancer, all diseases, all crippling disabilities, solved global poverty, put an end to world hunger, eased third world living conditions, stopped all needless suffering, gave everyone basic equal human rights and dignity, would you push it?



    I would push it, but after a while we would face the same or other problems.
    The circle would repeat.


    I think everyone is convinced in some way that evil is neccesary.

    - From a state of hunger to fulfillment.
    - From illiteracy to litteracy.
    - From sickness, to health.

    The problem is that we can't define a limit of evil, to what extension is it neccesary?

    The spectrum is quite wide as we can see it.
    From squashing a mosquito, to starting a nuclear war.

    As far as I can see it, there's no limit. If there was, the human will would be severely restricted.


    The Noble Qur'an -  Verily God does not change a people's condition unless they change their inner selves.
  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #111 - May 30, 2011, 08:38 PM
    "The world is like a ride at an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it, you think that it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills, and it's very brightly coloured, and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time, and they begin to question - is this real, or is this just a ride? And other people have remembered, and they come back to us. They say 'Hey! Don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because, this is just a ride.' And we...kill those people. Ha ha ha. 'Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride. SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry. Look at my big bank account and family. This just has to be real.' It's just a ride. But we always kill those good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok. But it doesn't matter because: it's just a ride. And we can change it anytime we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings, and money. A choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourselves off. The eyes of love, instead, see all of us as one. Here's what you can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money that we spend on weapons and defence each year, and instead spend it feeding, clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, for ever, in peace."
    ~ Bill Hicks
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #112 - May 30, 2011, 08:39 PM
    Quote from: iSoK on May 30, 2011, 08:26 PM
    I think everyone is convinced in some way that evil is neccesary.

    Necessary for what?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #113 - May 30, 2011, 08:45 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on May 30, 2011, 08:39 PM
    Necessary for what?


    To be happy.

    What do you do in your daily life Ishina?
    The Noble Qur'an -  Verily God does not change a people's condition unless they change their inner selves.
  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #114 - May 30, 2011, 08:47 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on May 30, 2011, 08:39 PM
    Necessary for what?


    Necessary for religionists desperately flailing to mitigate the existence of evil with the existence of their chosen Wizard of Oz in the sky.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #115 - May 30, 2011, 08:58 PM
    Quote from: iSoK on May 30, 2011, 08:45 PM
    To be happy.

    People born in loving, safe, healthy environments can grow to be strong, passionate and balanced individuals and achieve the same if not better than the have-not's. And they can appreciate their existence just as much as those who claw their way through hardship from the bottom to the top. And obviously are better off than those who got left behind.

    Suffering in this world is not equal. Evil is not distributed fairly. Those in the deepest pit of suffering in this world might never get out of it alive to 'appreciate' the experience. While safe-living armchair philosophers are claiming evil is necessary 'character building exercise', one more child died in the time it took to say it. For who's benefit did that happen? How did that benefit that child, or you, or me?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #116 - May 30, 2011, 09:10 PM
    Quote from: iSoK on May 30, 2011, 07:55 PM
    I wanted to make clear that evil is neccesary in the case of both God and no God.

    If evil is absolutely necessary doesn't that mean that god is not omnipotent?
  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #117 - May 30, 2011, 09:11 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on May 30, 2011, 08:58 PM
    People born in loving, safe, healthy environments can grow to be strong, passionate and balanced individuals and achieve the same if not better than the have-not's. And they can appreciate their existence just as much as those who claw their way through hardship from the bottom to the top. And obviously are better off than those who got left behind.

    Suffering in this world is not equal. Evil is not distributed fairly. Those in the deepest pit of suffering in this world might never get out of it alive to 'appreciate' the experience. While safe-living armchair philosophers are claiming evil is necessary 'character building exercise', one more child died in the time it took to say it. For who's benefit did that happen? How did that benefit that child, or you, or me?



    My parents used to be more happy when they were living in a house made of mud of 5 by 5 meters width back in Afghanistan.
    We barely had enough food, my father was constantly threatened.
    They were probably more happy than you and I are now, having enough to eat was enough for them.

    Our goal is too find a way to end the suffering of that child.
    But we shouldn't be ignorant to the fact that they might appreciate and enjoy life more than we do.
    (The use of Prozac here in the west for example is skyrocketting.)
    You should give rational arguments, instead of emotional plea's.
    The Noble Qur'an -  Verily God does not change a people's condition unless they change their inner selves.
  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #118 - May 30, 2011, 09:15 PM
    Quote
    You should give rational arguments, instead of emotional plea's.


    Physician, heal thyself.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: What I despise the most about Islam!
     Reply #119 - May 30, 2011, 09:24 PM
    It was a long and interesting discussion Ishina.

    I'm quite busy these days, currently in my final year of BsC Architecture.
    So I'll have to end it here now, I'll look up this place every now and then if there are interesting debates.
    I hope I didn't hurt your feelings in any way, that was not my intention.

    Wassalam,



    The Noble Qur'an -  Verily God does not change a people's condition unless they change their inner selves.
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